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EstebanDragonwing
06-11-2007, 02:06 PM
There has been some talk on Armor and defense on this forum.
http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3865

Here is the changes that I am working on myself:

Damage
The Vitality/Wound system is used (Unearthed Arcana, p. 115) with the following exceptions:

- The Dying result from Unearthed Arcana is ignored. Instead a character dropping below 0 Con is considered “Dying” and is unconscious. A “Dying” character must make a Fort save DC (damage dealt since dropping below 0 Wound Points +1 per turn since dropping to the “Dying” status), if the save is made the character remains “Dying” if the save is failed the character dies. This save must be made every turn until the character is stabilized as per the normal rules.
- A character that has less then 25% Vitality is considered Fatigued.
- A character that has less then 25% Vitality and has also sustained Wound damage will become Exhausted.

Attack Rolls
All attacks are opposed rolls.

Melee:
D20 + Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier vs D20 + Base Attack Bonus + Dex modifier

Modifiers to the Attacker’s Roll:
As per the normal rules.

Modifiers to the Defender’s Roll:
- All AC modifiers on Table 8-6 in the PHB (p. 151) count as modifiers on the roll
- +1 for each armor class bonus for shields
- +1 for each magical enhancement bonus on a shield
- -4 if unarmed
- +1 for each Deflection bonus to AC
- +1 for each Dodge bonus to AC
- The bonus from the Dex modifier is limited by the maximum Dex from worn armor.

Ranged:
D20 + Base Attack + Dex vs Reflex Save + Dex Modifier (This means that the Dex Modifier is used twice. First in the Reflex Save and then added a second time)

Modifiers to the Attacker’s Roll:
As per the normal rules.

Modifiers to the Defender’s Roll:
- All AC modifiers on Table 8-6 in the PHB (p. 151) count as modifiers on the roll
- +1 for each armor class bonus for shields
- +1 for each magical enhancement bonus on a shield
- +1 for each Deflection bonus to AC
- +1 for each Dodge bonus to AC
- The bonus from the Dex modifier is limited by the maximum Dex from worn armor.

Critical Hits:
Critical hits work the same way as per the normal rules, but the roll to confirm will be have a DC that is equal to the original opposed check.

Armor
Amor will no longer add to AC and the AC stat is completely removed. Instead most armor will give damage reduction.

The following types will give DR:
- Every 2 points of AC gained through worn armor bestows DR 1/- (Minimum 1)
- Every +1 magical enhancement bonus on armor will add to the armor AC points with respects to calculating DR (Thus Studded Leather +1 offers DR 2/-)
- Every 2 points of Natural Armor bestows DR 1/- (Minimum 1)
- DR gained from Adamant used in worn armor stacks with the DR gained from the armor itself
- DR gained from worn armor, Natural Armor and Class Abilities stack if the type of DR is the same. (Thus DR 1/- from the Barbarian Class stacks with DR 2/- from the Studded Leather +1, but the DR 2/- from the Studded Leather +1 does not stack with Racial DR 10/Evil from an Asral Deva)
- Critical hits ignore DR from worn armor and Natural Armor
- When DR from worn armor or Natural Armor reduces the damage from a successful attack to 0 then the character sustains 1 point of Vitality damage (no Wound damage is ever suffered through this, even if the character’s Vitality is 0)
- Shields do not add to DR as they are used in the opposed attack roll


This is only the first draft and it needs a lot of fine tuning.

cccpxepoj
06-11-2007, 03:09 PM
it's nice, but have you tried that system? (it is similar to game of thrones, and can tell you those battles last forever)

ShadowMoon
06-11-2007, 04:18 PM
Well I think we use similar systems, I am so glad I am not alone...

Anyway g2g now... hear ya soon ...


^^;

ryancaveney
06-11-2007, 11:42 PM
it's nice, but have you tried that system? (it is similar to game of thrones, and can tell you those battles last forever)

If the combat model is working right, that is precisely what should happen in certain circumstances. For example, two unarmed men boxing in full plate armor will achieve no decisive result until one of them gives up from sheer exhaustion. Two unarmored men with greataxes, however, will probably achieve a grievous wound on the first hit. This is exactly how combat in Harnmaster plays out, for example.


Ryan

Beruin
06-12-2007, 12:43 AM
it's nice, but have you tried that system? (it is similar to game of thrones, and can tell you those battles last forever)

I can relate to this, a few years ago, I tried to play a German rpg (Das Schwarze Auge), that also used a defence roll. Our 4-player-group needed about an hour to kill a trained falcon attacking us, because that darn bird had such a high defence. My ranger must have used up about three dozen arrows during that time. Immensly frustrating...
Add to that a DM I couldn't really relate to and the most illogical adventure solution ever, and I was back to D&D in no time.

As a sidenote, it might make things easier, if you just assume that everyone is taking 10 on his defence roll, giving you a fixed target number.

EstebanDragonwing
06-12-2007, 01:16 AM
As a sidenote, it might make things easier, if you just assume that everyone is taking 10 on his defence roll, giving you a fixed target number.

If I do this I am back at square one. The base 10 you get for normal AC is exactly that, assuming people take 10. I want a more dynamic system.

Beruin
06-12-2007, 02:50 AM
If I do this I am back at square one. The base 10 you get for normal AC is exactly that, assuming people take 10. I want a more dynamic system.

Well, we have different preferences here. My reason is that a static number preserves the thrill of a good roll, so-to-speak, i.e. if a player rolls a high number on his attack throw, he hits and this can't be countered by a good defence roll.
This works both ways, of course , but IIRC a number of D&D products, Unearthed Arcana included, state that in the long run randomness favours the underdog, i.e. the foes of your players.

Also, I was not specifically refering to your system, but generally to a system using defence instead of armor class and damage reducing/absorbing armor. Even if you use a static number, the difference is that it's now skill (or more correctly, level) that determines whether you've been hit, not equipment. Equipment now reduces damage.

Looking over your system again, I think you make it really hard to hit.
Consider two fifth level fighters locked in melee, both with 16 strength and clad in chainmail (AC 15). Under the standard rules, they need a 7 on d20 to hit each other (base attack +5 plus strength bonus +3= melee attack +8 against AC 15). Using your system, they now have to beat d20+10 (+5 base attack, +5 armour, no dex bonus) with their attack roll of d20+8.

On top of that, you're also applying damage reduction. Even if the vitality/wound system makes damage a bit more, well, dangerous, this seems a bit much to me.

EstebanDragonwing
06-12-2007, 03:36 AM
Looking over your system again, I think you make it really hard to hit.
Consider two fifth level fighters locked in melee, both with 16 strength and clad in chainmail (AC 15). Under the standard rules, they need a 7 on d20 to hit each other (base attack +5 plus strength bonus +3= melee attack +8 against AC 15). Using your system, they now have to beat d20+10 (+5 base attack, +5 armour, no dex bonus) with their attack roll of d20+8.

On top of that, you're also applying damage reduction. Even if the vitality/wound system makes damage a bit more, well, dangerous, this seems a bit much to me.

Armor does not add to the defense roll. In case of two fighters with the exact same stats it simply boils down to whoever rolls higher on the D20. In my system armor only gives DR and it does not help you avoid getting hit at all. That is purely skill.

kgauck
06-12-2007, 06:20 AM
Strait d20's are so random, though, I prefer to use 3d6 in place of the d20, as described in UA.

Beruin
06-12-2007, 11:35 AM
Armor does not add to the defense roll. In case of two fighters with the exact same stats it simply boils down to whoever rolls higher on the D20. In my system armor only gives DR and it does not help you avoid getting hit at all. That is purely skill.

Okay, seems I misread your post. What then do you mean by this sentence:



Modifiers to the Defender’s Roll:
- All AC modifiers on Table 8-6 in the PHB (p. 151) count as modifiers on the roll
- +1 for each armor class bonus for shields

EstebanDragonwing
06-12-2007, 02:20 PM
The AC modifiers on the named table are the modifiers you get for being prone, flanked, etc.

Shields are the only exception. Shield are used in the opposed defense roll (as they are used to parry or catch blows), but worn armor (the kind you wear as clothing) only provides you with DR.

Thus 2 level 5 fighters attacking each other, both having Str 16 and Dex 10 and both equipped with a masterwork longsword, a large steel shield and a breast plate will attack as follows:

Fighter 1 attacks: D20 + 5 (base attack) + 3 (Str) +1 (Masterwork Sword) = D20 + 9
Fighter 2 opposes: D20 + 5 (base attack) + 0 (Dex) +2 (Shield) = D20 + 7

The highest result wins. Now, if Fighter 1 manages a hit, then Fighter 2 will take 1d8+3 (Sword + Str) - 2 (DR2 from breastplate) damage.

Beruin
06-12-2007, 08:59 PM
The AC modifiers on the named table are the modifiers you get for being prone, flanked, etc.


Ah, okay, this is my fault entirely. Sorry for this. I did not bother to look the table up , because I only have the German version of the PHB, and the page count is quite different (table 8-6 is on p. 182 here) and I just assumed you were talking of the armor equipment table.:o :o Also, it was quite late yesterday...

Okay, this at least taught my to check the sources more thoroughly before I open my mouth.

EstebanDragonwing
06-12-2007, 09:04 PM
Ah, okay, this is my fault entirely. Sorry for this. I did not bother to look the table up , because I only have the German version of the PHB, and the page count is quite different (table 8-6 is on p. 182 here) and I just assumed you were talking of the armor equipment table.:o :o Also, it was quite late yesterday...

Okay, this at least taught my to check the sources more thoroughly before I open my mouth.

That is quite ok. I would be lying if I claimed to never open my mouth before checking either.

ryancaveney
06-12-2007, 09:50 PM
Strait d20's are so random, though, I prefer to use 3d6 in place of the d20, as described in UA.

I think this is an excellent idea. I've replaced every d20 with 3d6. I find this makes randomness less dominating, yet still allows it some influence.


Ryan