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  1. #1

    Armor and Attack Rolls

    There has been some talk on Armor and defense on this forum.
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3865

    Here is the changes that I am working on myself:

    Damage
    The Vitality/Wound system is used (Unearthed Arcana, p. 115) with the following exceptions:

    - The Dying result from Unearthed Arcana is ignored. Instead a character dropping below 0 Con is considered “Dying” and is unconscious. A “Dying” character must make a Fort save DC (damage dealt since dropping below 0 Wound Points +1 per turn since dropping to the “Dying” status), if the save is made the character remains “Dying” if the save is failed the character dies. This save must be made every turn until the character is stabilized as per the normal rules.
    - A character that has less then 25% Vitality is considered Fatigued.
    - A character that has less then 25% Vitality and has also sustained Wound damage will become Exhausted.

    Attack Rolls
    All attacks are opposed rolls.

    Melee:
    D20 + Base Attack Bonus + Str Modifier vs D20 + Base Attack Bonus + Dex modifier

    Modifiers to the Attacker’s Roll:
    As per the normal rules.

    Modifiers to the Defender’s Roll:
    - All AC modifiers on Table 8-6 in the PHB (p. 151) count as modifiers on the roll
    - +1 for each armor class bonus for shields
    - +1 for each magical enhancement bonus on a shield
    - -4 if unarmed
    - +1 for each Deflection bonus to AC
    - +1 for each Dodge bonus to AC
    - The bonus from the Dex modifier is limited by the maximum Dex from worn armor.

    Ranged:
    D20 + Base Attack + Dex vs Reflex Save + Dex Modifier (This means that the Dex Modifier is used twice. First in the Reflex Save and then added a second time)

    Modifiers to the Attacker’s Roll:
    As per the normal rules.

    Modifiers to the Defender’s Roll:
    - All AC modifiers on Table 8-6 in the PHB (p. 151) count as modifiers on the roll
    - +1 for each armor class bonus for shields
    - +1 for each magical enhancement bonus on a shield
    - +1 for each Deflection bonus to AC
    - +1 for each Dodge bonus to AC
    - The bonus from the Dex modifier is limited by the maximum Dex from worn armor.

    Critical Hits:
    Critical hits work the same way as per the normal rules, but the roll to confirm will be have a DC that is equal to the original opposed check.

    Armor
    Amor will no longer add to AC and the AC stat is completely removed. Instead most armor will give damage reduction.

    The following types will give DR:
    - Every 2 points of AC gained through worn armor bestows DR 1/- (Minimum 1)
    - Every +1 magical enhancement bonus on armor will add to the armor AC points with respects to calculating DR (Thus Studded Leather +1 offers DR 2/-)
    - Every 2 points of Natural Armor bestows DR 1/- (Minimum 1)
    - DR gained from Adamant used in worn armor stacks with the DR gained from the armor itself
    - DR gained from worn armor, Natural Armor and Class Abilities stack if the type of DR is the same. (Thus DR 1/- from the Barbarian Class stacks with DR 2/- from the Studded Leather +1, but the DR 2/- from the Studded Leather +1 does not stack with Racial DR 10/Evil from an Asral Deva)
    - Critical hits ignore DR from worn armor and Natural Armor
    - When DR from worn armor or Natural Armor reduces the damage from a successful attack to 0 then the character sustains 1 point of Vitality damage (no Wound damage is ever suffered through this, even if the character’s Vitality is 0)
    - Shields do not add to DR as they are used in the opposed attack roll


    This is only the first draft and it needs a lot of fine tuning.

  2. #2
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    it's nice, but have you tried that system? (it is similar to game of thrones, and can tell you those battles last forever)

  3. #3
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    ...

    Well I think we use similar systems, I am so glad I am not alone...

    Anyway g2g now... hear ya soon ...


    ^^;
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

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    Senior Member ryancaveney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccpxepoj View Post
    it's nice, but have you tried that system? (it is similar to game of thrones, and can tell you those battles last forever)
    If the combat model is working right, that is precisely what should happen in certain circumstances. For example, two unarmed men boxing in full plate armor will achieve no decisive result until one of them gives up from sheer exhaustion. Two unarmored men with greataxes, however, will probably achieve a grievous wound on the first hit. This is exactly how combat in Harnmaster plays out, for example.


    Ryan

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    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccpxepoj View Post
    it's nice, but have you tried that system? (it is similar to game of thrones, and can tell you those battles last forever)
    I can relate to this, a few years ago, I tried to play a German rpg (Das Schwarze Auge), that also used a defence roll. Our 4-player-group needed about an hour to kill a trained falcon attacking us, because that darn bird had such a high defence. My ranger must have used up about three dozen arrows during that time. Immensly frustrating...
    Add to that a DM I couldn't really relate to and the most illogical adventure solution ever, and I was back to D&D in no time.

    As a sidenote, it might make things easier, if you just assume that everyone is taking 10 on his defence roll, giving you a fixed target number.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    As a sidenote, it might make things easier, if you just assume that everyone is taking 10 on his defence roll, giving you a fixed target number.
    If I do this I am back at square one. The base 10 you get for normal AC is exactly that, assuming people take 10. I want a more dynamic system.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EstebanDragonwing View Post
    If I do this I am back at square one. The base 10 you get for normal AC is exactly that, assuming people take 10. I want a more dynamic system.
    Well, we have different preferences here. My reason is that a static number preserves the thrill of a good roll, so-to-speak, i.e. if a player rolls a high number on his attack throw, he hits and this can't be countered by a good defence roll.
    This works both ways, of course , but IIRC a number of D&D products, Unearthed Arcana included, state that in the long run randomness favours the underdog, i.e. the foes of your players.

    Also, I was not specifically refering to your system, but generally to a system using defence instead of armor class and damage reducing/absorbing armor. Even if you use a static number, the difference is that it's now skill (or more correctly, level) that determines whether you've been hit, not equipment. Equipment now reduces damage.

    Looking over your system again, I think you make it really hard to hit.
    Consider two fifth level fighters locked in melee, both with 16 strength and clad in chainmail (AC 15). Under the standard rules, they need a 7 on d20 to hit each other (base attack +5 plus strength bonus +3= melee attack +8 against AC 15). Using your system, they now have to beat d20+10 (+5 base attack, +5 armour, no dex bonus) with their attack roll of d20+8.

    On top of that, you're also applying damage reduction. Even if the vitality/wound system makes damage a bit more, well, dangerous, this seems a bit much to me.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    Looking over your system again, I think you make it really hard to hit.
    Consider two fifth level fighters locked in melee, both with 16 strength and clad in chainmail (AC 15). Under the standard rules, they need a 7 on d20 to hit each other (base attack +5 plus strength bonus +3= melee attack +8 against AC 15). Using your system, they now have to beat d20+10 (+5 base attack, +5 armour, no dex bonus) with their attack roll of d20+8.

    On top of that, you're also applying damage reduction. Even if the vitality/wound system makes damage a bit more, well, dangerous, this seems a bit much to me.
    Armor does not add to the defense roll. In case of two fighters with the exact same stats it simply boils down to whoever rolls higher on the D20. In my system armor only gives DR and it does not help you avoid getting hit at all. That is purely skill.

  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Strait d20's are so random, though, I prefer to use 3d6 in place of the d20, as described in UA.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EstebanDragonwing View Post
    Armor does not add to the defense roll. In case of two fighters with the exact same stats it simply boils down to whoever rolls higher on the D20. In my system armor only gives DR and it does not help you avoid getting hit at all. That is purely skill.
    Okay, seems I misread your post. What then do you mean by this sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by EstebanDragonwing View Post
    Modifiers to the Defender’s Roll:
    - All AC modifiers on Table 8-6 in the PHB (p. 151) count as modifiers on the roll
    - +1 for each armor class bonus for shields

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