Ascension [Archive] - Birthright.net

ploesch

11-16-2006, 06:05 PM

Falamar,
I think you misunderstood how the New gods came to be slightly. It wasn't just because of the Release of the Gods energy. Those that Ascended were the ones that were closest to the Gods Philosophically. I think that the strength of Bloodlines was also not only about how physically close to the gods you were, but also how philosophically close you were to your own god. Obviously there is a Physical component because there are so many that received a bloodline from a god other than their patron.

The newer gods all tend to be the children of the new gods. So there isn't really a precedent in BR for characters ascending.

That leaves the field wide open for you to do what you want. I really don't enjoy god level campaigns, especially in a BR setting where challenges are more mundane. But if that's what you enjoy go for it.

If I was to run that type of campaign, I would require that the characters have true bloodlines to ascend. This would represent Epic tasks the PC's completed to make them beloved by the people (a pre-requisite for becoming a god IMO). They would also have to establish at least informal churches for themselves, I am not familiar with the book you are using, but in the old days Gods had 1 God HP per 100 worship points they had. Once they became sufficiently powerful enough, the Gods themselves would start testing them. If any God saw something they didn't like, they would seek to kill them, and would of course succeed unless other gods liked them enough to intercede.

In BR the Gods have a pact to not interfere in Mortal matters, but when someone seeks to become a god, it's no longer a Mortal matter.

irdeggman

11-16-2006, 07:32 PM

I agree with the need for true bloodline in order to ascend.

In 2nd ed (and the BRCS) you cannot gain a true bloodline. (See Book of Regency in 2nd ed for how to increase ones bloodline strength {i.e., tainted to minor to major}. It specifically states under no circumstance can a scion increase their bloodline to true.

Also in 2nd ed the "present" gods are not all "greater gods" per 2nd ed terminology.

Haelyn, Erik, Avani, are the greater human deities.

Nesirie, Sera, Belinik are the intermediate deities and the rest are lesser.

The 3.0 book Deities and Demigods has infor on stolen and imparted divinity (pg 11) and deicide (pg 18) all of which might be useful to you.

falamar

11-17-2006, 11:30 AM

Fizz

11-17-2006, 03:55 PM

Book of the Immortals
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1670
A True bloodline isn't required to become a god. No bloodline is required.
I have one toon who has a true bloodline but this is a group thing why would i only allow one of them to make it.

Well, i don't know what the book says, but i think a bloodline should be required in Birthright. It's essential to the setting.

Without it, the whole point of having a bloodline is greatly diminished. If a non-blooded character can ultimately exceed the power of those who do have a bloodline, then, what's the point of a bloodline in the first place?

Even the Gorgon, the most powerful creature on Cerilia, is no where close to ascending to godhood. How can a mere non-scion do so?

-Fizz

falamar

11-17-2006, 05:28 PM

This is not true. It said in the book that the Gorgon choose not to ascend.
If you can't grasp the concept of a group of lvl 30 godlings thats ok.
I am not asking permission.
I have 1 True bloodline an Elf that was around for Mt Desimar and 4 great Bloodline that have maxed their blood scores out. The truth of the matter is that anyone can ascend to godhood and these people are on that path.

They are no longer in Bloodspace atm for breaking the pack of no physical violence between the gods. And were Banished. They will not beable to return untill Demigod status is achieved.

My question is to the developers is wiether or not their bloodlines will change how they ascend. If I can't get an answer other than "Don't let them ascend" I will cont. on my own accord.

Not everyone likes hi powered games and most can't comprehend letting anyone get as powerfull as the original bad guys but it happens.

ploesch

11-17-2006, 06:07 PM

Falamar, No one is telling you you can't do what you want. This board isn't a board for the developers to tell you what to do. Most of us here are not developers, just players and GM's ourselves, and are trying to answer your question and give advice as best we can. What you do with that advice is up to you.

I really don't care what the book you are basing their ascension on says. In the BRCS Bloodlines represent your Connection to the land, and closeness to the Godliness. This is why we have suggested that a True Bloodline should be required to Ascend. This has nothing to do with the book your following, your book was not written to be specific to every campaign. If they had written it specifically for BRCS, then they would likely agree. In BR, True Bloodlines should be a pre-requisite for Ascension.

Now, the rules say you shouldn't allow a PC to increase their Bloodline more than once a lifetime, and PC's should never be allowed to have/gain true Bloodlines. You already broke that rule. For your game, since the goal is to have them ascend, I would ignore that Rule, and just make it a very difficult thing to achieve. Consider it an adventure hook, how to gain a true Bloodline.

This is all a suggestion, and is not written by the developers, or Official. However, I think most here, including the developers, would agree that IF they were to allow PC's to Ascend, then a True Bloodline would be a pre-requisite.

falamar

11-17-2006, 07:24 PM

You say that it is said that pc's shouldn't be allowed to raise thier bloodlines but once. Then please explain the bloodseeker class that is all about usrption and raising one blood score. Or explain why it is that once the true bloodline has disappeared that bloodspace will never again have anyone ascend?

I am here for opinions and sugestions. But not here for people to tell me that I can't do what has been done.

ploesch

11-17-2006, 08:41 PM

Raising ones Bloodscore, and raising your Blood strength are completely separate. There is no limit in the rules to how much you can raise your BloodScore. Although, by the 3E rules, the higher your Blood score the more difficult it is to increase. It has always been in the rules that you shouldn't allow raising of Blood Strength more than once in a generation, and even then it takes an accomplishment of Epic porportions as well as having increased you blood score by a certain ammount over starting.

Appropriate sections (From the Sanctioned Chap 2 3E Rules):

True bloodlines are unique. Only the greatest heroes of Deismaar, those who were both physically and philosophically closest to the expiring gods, were granted True bloodlines. Only these surviving heroes or their direct heirs through bloodline investiture have True bloodlines. There are believed to be less than a dozen true bloodlines in existence. All known True bloodlines are currently possessed by powerful awnshegh or ehrshegh. These individuals are near demigods and are rumored to be able to grant a divine connection that allows their followers access to divine magic. Some True scions are rumored to have other divine abilities beyond the ken of most mortals.

PCs should not generally be allowed to have True bloodlines. These are reserved for those present at Deismaar and their direct descendents.

The first step toward increasing a scion's bloodline strength lies in his ability score. The scion must increase his bloodline score to ten or more points above its starting value. Secondly, the character must achieve public fame (or infamy) through their deeds and actions. Legendary feats build the public acclaim that is essential to increasing the strength of a character's semi-divine blood. A quest to increase one's bloodline strength requires an epic deed; an increase in bloodline strength never occurs without deeds that are the stuff of legend. A character can never increase his bloodline strength more than once in a generation; this reflects how legendary the act truly is.

Ascension of PC's to godhood is not something that is covered in the BRCS rules. It is somewhat the basis of the Campaign setting, but was never intended as something for the PC's to accomplish.

I just wanted to point to some ideas that would allow you to stay more in line with the campaign setting, and still accomplish what you want. There is no reason you can't ignore increasing Blood Strength more than once a Generation. I would suggest though, that if you want to stay with the flavor of the BRCS, then a true Bloodline would be a requirement of Ascension.

As I've stated previously. It's your game, do what you want to.

Fizz

11-17-2006, 08:44 PM

Falamar, you seem to be confusing Birthright material with other material.

Book of the Immortals is NOT a Birthright product. So when you ask a question about bloodlines here (the Birthright boards), we're going to answer you from the context of Birthright, not this other book. Most people here don't have that book. It is not related to Birthright.

Likewise, what is this bloodseeker class? Is it from the Book of Immortals? If so, then it too is NOT a Birthright class. The rules for that class, and that whole book do not, by default, apply to Birthright.

In Birthright, the official rules say that you can only raise your bloodline strength (not score) once. They also say you can't have a PC with a True bloodline, and only characters with a True bloodline could theoretically achieve demigod status. (Several awnshegh have true bloodlines, and none of them have achieved.) Those are the official rules for Birthright.

What you do in your own campaign is your business. If you want to apply The Book of Immortals to your campaign, by all means do.

But you can't expect people here to be famililar with a non-Birthright product, and then refer to them as `official' rules. If you ask a question here, the answer is going to be from the perspective the official setting.

-Fizz

irdeggman

11-17-2006, 08:59 PM

My question is to the developers is wiether or not their bloodlines will change how they ascend. If I can't get an answer other than "Don't let them ascend" I will cont. on my own accord.

Then the answer is no their bloodlines do not change. They also cannot ascend - not per the BRCS rules.

I gave examples of where you can find information that might help you develop something for your game, but for the BRCS a scion cannot ascend.

A character likewise cannot raise his bloodline to True.

In order to have a True bloodline a scion must have been at Deismaar, in close proximity to the gods and be philosophically closest.

From Chap 2 (sanctioned) of the BRCS:

True bloodlines are unique. Only the greatest heroes of Deismaar, those who were both physically and philosophically closest to the expiring gods, were granted True bloodlines. Only these surviving heroes or their direct heirs through bloodline investiture have True bloodlines. There are believed to be less than a dozen true bloodlines in existence.
All known True bloodlines are currently possessed by powerful awnshegh or ehrshegh. These individuals are near demigods and are rumored to be able to grant a divine connection that allows their followers access to divine magic. Some True scions are rumored to have other divine abilities beyond the ken of most mortals

I believe you making many false assumptions, as has been pointed out.

When the current gods ascended (ones at Mt Desimar) I have always asumed that the reason they ascended to the Lvl of Greater gods was because of the release of all the old gods blood. And the one that ascended after that went straight to lesser gods was acounted for because they wear blodded people. Any way they skipped Demi god status. If this is so them how would my people ascended? One comes from a True Bloodline and all the others have maxed their blood long ago. When they ascended will they skip Demi-god status? And if so by how much?

Who ascended to godhood after Deismaar?

I know of none - they all happened at that time.

There are 3 children of the present gods (Eloele, Laerme, and Cuiraecen) not to be confused with newly ascended gods.

I also pointed out the error in Greater godhood and relative "power" of the gods.

I suggest using the Deities and Demigods information, especially that about killing the old gods and also imparted divinity. A type of "Investiture" might work well.

You have to remember that the present gods "replaced" existing ones, except for the children. IMO this is similar to a type of "Investiture".

Arjan

11-17-2006, 09:23 PM

celtibear wrote:
I would think it depends on where you want to go from here. If you want to run a sequel game, where the new gods/former PCs are trying to build their worshippers, then I'd go with Lesser. When a cleric regent rises to power, or a nation declares one of them as a state religion, then they get promoted to Greater.

On the other hand, if you plan on running even occasional adventures for them after they ascend, then I'd go with Demigod, as they would be easier to challenge.

This, of course, assumes I were running the game- your mileage will vary. (Personally, I might let one or two of my players acheive ershelein [sic] status or sainthood, but not godhood. Just my opinion, of course.)

Also, elves being the atheists, I would say they don't get godhood, at all. But again, just my opinion.

falamar

11-17-2006, 10:55 PM

You seem to belive that I am confused. It is blantantly obvious that the book of immortals isn't BR. But with any world when you travel the plane or crystal sphere's any thing and everything is possible.

Like I said I have one person who is palying a elf that was at the Battle of Mt Desimar. The others have raised their bloodline scores. I eother have overlooked or can't find the rules for raising thier bloodlines fro great to true.

If what you are saying that is what I need to do to stay with the flavor(and I am) then explain somemore to me about that.

But Now lets break away from that mindset for one moment PLEASE
and help me with my question.

Which is....
Say for the moment I have 2 fledgling godlings
Both on the path of trancendance.
A procces that takes 8 challanges and 4 Great challanges
One is a Blooded toon one not, from Greyspace lets say.
Both ascend at the same time.
Would the one with the bloodline get a boost in his godhood over the other?
There are distinct rules for the generating and lvling gods
Gods rate from 0-Hero/godling such as what the group is now
then 1 for demi-god status up to a 20 for greater gods.
Lvl 21+ gods are for the like of AO who no longer need worshipers

This has been my question

ploesch

11-17-2006, 11:23 PM

That question is more a personal preference IMO.

Bloodline and Strength are week compared to the personal power characters of 30+ level would have.

So, the answer to your question is up to you.

My, admittedly limited, knowledge of 3E godhood tells me that the god rank (greater, intermediate, lesser, demi) is based on the God level, and nothing else. So, whether a player is blooded or not, the first level of godhood would make them a Demi-god regardless of whether or not they are blooded.

On the other hand, I think the God level would strengthen/boost their Blood powers. Since they are sparks of divine essense, gaining ful godhood would likely make the powers highly potent. Either making them at will, very difficult to resist, or having a greater effect. I'd say that would be a GM preference thing.

AndrewTall

11-17-2006, 11:35 PM

Like I said I have one person who is palying a elf that was at the Battle of Mt Desimar. The others have raised their bloodline scores. I eother have overlooked or can't find the rules for raising thier bloodlines fro great to true.

Andrew: I think that there are very deliberately NO such rules as most BR games are low level. I would suggest that the PC must slay a being with a true bloodline and gain their bloodline (I note that these are mostly powerful awnsheghlien), or raise a great bloodline to a score of say 50+ and perform some legendary feat sch as re-unifying the anuirean empire.

Falamar: If what you are saying that is what I need to do to stay with the flavor(and I am) then explain somemore to me about that.

But Now lets break away from that mindset for one moment PLEASE
and help me with my question.

Which is....
Say for the moment I have 2 fledgling godlings
Both on the path of trancendance.
A procces that takes 8 challanges and 4 Great challanges
One is a Blooded toon one not, from Greyspace lets say.
Both ascend at the same time.
Would the one with the bloodline get a boost in his godhood over the other?
There are distinct rules for the generating and lvling gods
Gods rate from 0-Hero/godling such as what the group is now
then 1 for demi-god status up to a 20 for greater gods.
Lvl 21+ gods are for the like of AO who no longer need worshipers

This has been my question

OK. BR rule changes: You need to remove the one increase in bloodline strength per generation, permit a great bloodline to be increased to true, and set conditions for doing so, I would suggest that the challenges you mention would be a good starting point for increasingly the bloodline in such a fashion.

I would say that having a true bloodline should be a pre-requisite for godhood in BR - any other means is basically ignoring the setting special rules, so the player without a bloodline is temporarily stuck (although an epic charactor should be able to womp anything short of a dragon / the toughest named awnshegh without breaking a sweat - with bloodtheft a bloodline is a snap for that type) or they could be invested with a bloodline. Alternatively after completing a challenge they could gain a bllodline score as a long dormant bloodline is awakened by the glorious activities of the PC.

While I don't know the rules re: challenges, I would suggest that you could merge the BR and the godling rules and say that to raise a major bloodline to great requires a challenge or two, to raise great to true requires 1-2 great challenges, your non-blooded PC could be chosen as a champion of a faith for their exploits and be invested with a bloodline by the priests for example if they have already 'done' their challenges.

In that way both will be blooded when they ascend and the question of the blodline impact won't arise.

Alternatively the unblooded godling could be called an elemental spirit / demon / etc and gain from different powers from the blooded godling to reflect that their power is arises not from the ancient gods of the humans, but from some wilder source - its a flavour point only but one which could profoundly impact the types of priest they empower.

Personally I would also make the Gorgon, Rhoubhe, The serpent etc godlings of some sort - everyone needs a good challenge. I'm not quite sure how the elves would do as gods, although if they saw themselves as paragons to be emulated rather than father-types to be obeyed it might well work in BR.

Andrew

irdeggman

11-17-2006, 11:41 PM

But Now lets break away from that mindset for one moment PLEASE
and help me with my question.

Which is....
Say for the moment I have 2 fledgling godlings
Both on the path of trancendance.
A procces that takes 8 challanges and 4 Great challanges
One is a Blooded toon one not, from Greyspace lets say.
Both ascend at the same time.
Would the one with the bloodline get a boost in his godhood over the other?
There are distinct rules for the generating and lvling gods
Gods rate from 0-Hero/godling such as what the group is now
then 1 for demi-god status up to a 20 for greater gods.
Lvl 21+ gods are for the like of AO who no longer need worshipers

This has been my question

There is no connection between bloodline strength and godhood at the points you are talking about.

Bloodlines are a "spark of divinity".

Once you have started any type of ascension, as you have indicated the PCs have, all bets are off.

From that point on things progress outside of bloodlines.

You also need to remember that bloodlines are tied to a specific deity so any ascension based soley on bloodlines would have to follow the bloodline's predisposition.

That is Andurias would be rulership, law and good. Things like that. The old gods were never documented very well (that question has come up before). You would have to make connections with Haelyn and Roele in order to sufficiently connect to what made Andurias tick, IMO.

The same would have to be said of the other bloodline derivations.

As I pointed out earlier there is no connection between deity strength (as in greater to minor deity) for the present gods and all of them ascended at the same time under the same conditions. Hence there is no connection for any new type of ascensions.

I am sorry but I have no idea of the rules under which you are playing so I cannot phrase my answer in a way that is conducive with them.

All I can do is answer IAW with the BRCS (and 2nd ed rules) and some other WotC sources that I have access to.

As far as elves go. Really there is no reason for them to be deified. They are truely immortal and have lived as long as any of the gods. Because of their immortality they do not "worship" any deity in a manner that would increase that deity's power and thus they would not be "worshipped" in a manner that would increase theirs.

You might want to look at Blood Spawn (a free BR download from WotC) that addresses the "history" of the elves from before the world split. The sidebar on pg 5 talks about how two worlds were one and something about the relationship of the elves is in there. Also on pg 27 there is information on the relationship between the elves, the faerie and the Sie. It might be an idea to have the elf meld with his twin faerie and rebecome a Sie instead of the normal deity.

falamar

11-18-2006, 01:44 AM

irdeggman

11-18-2006, 04:02 AM

Thank you for the input. In this time frame we play the gorgon and manslayer are demi-gods. And the 1 elf has achieved sainthood. And doesn't consider himself a god(this is the one from Mt Desimar) and doesn't wish to be worshipped but still will gain the power of one when he ascends. The remaining elf was turned to the evil side but was sanctified by the saint "Sanctify the wicked spell" And since his arival in greyspace has considered taking worshipers.
It says that elf for the most part are not religious and the ones that are keep it to them selves, So that leaves an opening for his to gather a small following on Cerilia.
Their goal is to return to Cerilia

Its your game, but I would totally disagree with the elf deity issue.

Have you read/played the 2nd ed material or are you basing everything on the BRCS?

In the BRCS (Ch 3):

Elves cannot advance as clerics except under the most unusual of circumstances. The elves can call upon the forces inherent in wood and water, field and air, but have never worshiped deities. They are aware that the gods of Deismaar existed and that new gods were created, but they do not pay homage to them. Particularly after their deception and betrayal by Azrai, the elves have been adamant in their refusal to worship human gods. To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual and not based upon the judgment of external powers.

and Chap 1:

The elves are aware that gods exist, but they do not pay homage to them. Particularly after their deception and betrayal by Azrai, the elves have been adamant in their refusal to worship human gods. To the elves, spiritual development is the responsibility of the individual. The path that an elf takes is a decision that only he or she can make. So strong is this belief that if an elf chooses to worship one of the human gods, so be it. The only restriction placed upon such rare individuals is that they not discuss their religious ideologies within elven realms.

They are also extremely unlikely to pick up worshippers from other cultures:

• Infamous reputation: Elves are infamous for pursuing campaigns against entire races, including dwarves, gnolls, goblins, and even humans in many regions (including most of Anuire). Elves receive a -4 racial penalty to Diplomacy, a -4 racial penalty to Gather Information, and a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate in areas where they have an infamous reputation.

They have, as a race, been at war with just about every race on the surface of Cerilia at one time or another - so this reduces the chances of finding any worhippers, IMO.

Just because it seems logical or nice to have elven gods doesn't mean it fits the setting (from a RAW standpoint that is).

falamar

11-18-2006, 05:58 AM

Damn dude you absolutly proved my point for me with that second quote.
It says they can worship!
It is a choice they make.
I may argue my point but I appreciate the input

irdeggman

11-18-2006, 01:35 PM

Damn dude you absolutly proved my point for me with that second quote.
It says they can worship!
It is a choice they make.
I may argue my point but I appreciate the input

The emphasis is on "rare".

In general that means singular (or so close to it that they might as well only be singular).

There are also several quotes referencing "adamant in their refusal to worship human deities".

Like I said I am unaware of the rules source you are using for ascension. I do not know if it has a tie of deity power to the number of worshippers. Most of the WotC sources do (or have a strong implication of that). To me this makes having an elven deity so rare (because fo their refusal to worship - except is rare cases) that there would be insufficient number of followers to supply the "power" needed for ascension.

Since you have already decided on this ascension - I would make the elven ascension much different than the others. Elves have (and have never had) gods in Cerilia. This is an important issue that should be reflected in any sort of ascension you have planned. I still think tieing them into the Sie would be sufficiently epic (and different enough) to make for a very interesting "path". It also ties things into the Shadow World (which is always interesting).

dalor

11-18-2006, 06:16 PM

Because a God decides that he wants that mortal as a
Demi-God henchman. The Gorgon is nowhere near because
the other Gods have no insane tendancy to believe he
wouldn`t try and take their place...being opposed by
the gods in a quest for god-hood is usually a huge
stumbling block.

Just my opinion.

Anthony C. Edwards

--- Fizz <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net
> message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
>
http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3167
>
> Fizz wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Book of the Immortals
>
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1670
> A True bloodline isn`t required to become a god. No
> bloodline is required.
> I have one toon who has a true bloodline but this is
> a group thing why would i only allow one of them to
> make it.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Well, i don`t know what the book says, but i think a
> bloodline should be required in Birthright. It`s
> essential to the setting.
>
> Without it, the whole point of having a bloodline is
> greatly diminished. If a non-blooded character can
> ultimately exceed the power of those who do have a
> bloodline, then, what`s the point of a bloodline in
> the first place?
>
> Even the Gorgon, the most powerful creature on
> Cerilia, is no where close to ascending to godhood.
> How can a mere non-scion do so?
>
>
> -Fizz
>
>

>
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falamar

11-18-2006, 09:24 PM

Worshipers are not required to ascend(as per BoI) or maintain god status(as explained in Ps). If you are slain(by a divine power)(being slain by a mortal simply has you rise again in your domain after 2 weeks) out of your godly domain(obtained at Demi-god) with no worshipers then you end up as a floating hulk in the astral plane as explained in Planescape.
Godly auras can cause all within a radius to make a will save or they must worship them for a certain time frame. There are many modifiers to this save, radius, lenght of time and area of effect.

Readers Digest of Campain
Ok so at one point they and a crew of 350 from thier warship landed of an lg unchaterd island. At this point all player were elves 20th lvl (it started as a 4th lvl all elf LLubraight Gheallie Sidhe campaign) They were basicly traped here due to the fact I play the limited transport rules but a bit more harsh. No travel or transdimentional Items or spells havine everything that uses that being a one way ticket to the shadowworld. After a few decades they decided that a civilization should be started. All elves were someones followes and a few voluntiered to change sex and begin reproducing. During this time is when they started thier path of transcendence. According to the Boof of Immortals. The Elves are the only race that has a Path of transcendence without the sponsor of a God.
Which is said to be belive as where so many of the elves disappear to at the end of their long lives. The Boat ride so to speak. 99% of these elves live thier days in paradise the other 1% Attempt the dangerious path to transcendence few ever make it that far.

There they started the Path. After 1000 years others came and spoke of the Wars. A War of the Shadow a war started by the Cold Rider. Where lines in the sand were drawn amongst the gods. And the other races holding old grudges once againt turned their eyes to the elves and once again they were under siege. So they left this paradise to return
to Cerilia to aid in this war.
After losing 3 of their member in a victory against the gorgon, Erik and Moradin Changed thier minds on the stance of the Elves.

Further down the path They Killed the Gorgon and in the Godly Court The evil gods claimed that they had broken the pact amongst the Cerilian gods that never again shall the gods battle each other in physical form and that the group was considered 0-lvl Hero/Gods and were apart of this godly court therefore held to that pact. The other gods claimed that The Gorgon was on the battlefield killing many of the mortals and interfering with the outcome of the battle and that the group was only defending the mortals. But Denikin claimed that the group was doing the same and that as previously stated that the group are godly powers here and were to beheld accountable for that aswell.

The group was banished from Greyspace until their Ascention to that of Demi-gods and only if they aggree to the Pact.

Now they travel the Planes and Spelljam the Crystal Spheres

falamar

11-18-2006, 09:38 PM

geeman

11-19-2006, 05:14 PM

Hey, Falamar.

I normally don`t do this, but I`m going to point you to a few threads
in the BR list archives that deal with the issues of ascension in BR
rather than try to summarize a LOT of materials. The issue of
apotheosis in BR has been discussed (and debated) extensively in the
past, and amongst that text are a few things you might find
useful. Unfortunately, it`s a little difficult to trace threads in
the list archives since things are only broken up by week but, in
particular, I`d suggest having a look at the following threads:

"Misc:Gods"
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9911B&L=BIRTHRIGHT-L&D=0&I=-3&P=2286

"Cerilian Apotheosis"
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0209A&L=BIRTHRIGHT-L&P=R1551&I=-3
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0209A&L=BIRTHRIGHT-L&D=0&I=-3&P=3405

"Gods and Goddesses"
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0003B&L=BIRTHRIGHT-L&P=R2920&I=-3

"the point to gaining blood, and becoming a God"
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0209A&L=BIRTHRIGHT-L&P=R2409&I=-3&m=14022
In addition, I`d suggest a few things. First, I think this
suggestion that ascension is not possible or is somehow a bad idea in
a BR campaign is just a personal opinion based on the writer`s own
aesthetic rather than anything indicated in the published
material. There are plenty of things indicating that such a process
could happen in BR. It`s not really the kind of campaign I`d be
likely to run personally, but given that ascension is the setting`s
background and several BR main characters (the Gorgon, the Serpent,
the Magian, the Chimerae, etc.) have apotheosis, immortality or some
sort of similar process as their major emphasis the idea is supported
by the setting`s material in several places.

Second, I`d suggest that there`s nothing about bloodline that makes
it the only path to ascension in BR, but a lot to indicate that it
would be the easiest way. Like a lot of other issues in the setting,
the point is not that other methods might be employed, but what would
be the path most likely used? Since bloodline represents a divine
process to begin with its the natural extension of that process. In
the same way that those characters with a bloodline are able to rule
in a way beyond that of normal humans they also have a route to
divinity that is beyond that of normal humans. Sure, they might go
the long and painful route of Hercules to ascension (who may or may
not have had a bloodline depending on how one wants to view being
descended of an actual god) but if one can increase bloodline over
time by various means to become "more godly" then that`d be a pretty
good route. Just as there were kingdoms and rulers before Deismaar
that is slower and less magically oriented than the kingdoms and
rulers after the battle, there must be a way to ascend that has
nothing to do with bloodline, but such a method would be more
difficult than doing so through the existing BR bloodline system.

Gary

falamar

11-19-2006, 05:43 PM

I appreciate it. Thanks for the input. No I had never considered running a god campaign before this either. The group got to 20th lvl and we came across the Book of Immortals. And decided to give it a shot and have found it to be very fun.
I can't see me doing it again. Keeping a epic/godly campaign interesting has been a challange.

irdeggman

11-20-2006, 02:15 AM

During this time is when they started thier path of transcendence. According to the Boof of Immortals. The Elves are the only race that has a Path of transcendence without the sponsor of a God.

To me this reads that it is "easier" for an elf to become a god than another race.

If so, IMO, it should be the opposite in Birthright.

Elves are that much different than the other races and that much further from deities (since they never had one in the setting).

kgauck

11-20-2006, 07:07 AM

Although, one of the reasons they rejected the gods is because, as immortals, they were around shortly after creation. If that were true, it does open a line of reasoning that elves are too close to the divine to accept the gods as objects of worship, as opposed to just respect. If the gods were entities you saw wandering the land, debated with, shared insights with, its plausible you wouldn't worship them and it would be easier to become one. Another argument might involve the nature of the elves. Are they auto-creating, immortal beings composed of the elemental structure of the universe? Begining to sound at least kind of divine...

RaspK_FOG

11-20-2006, 09:27 AM

Actually, elves are neither: they just happen to be more in tune with the world itself; their only connection to deities is that and that alone. However, guess what: the deities of Cerilia were there before the "elves," in a sense, and they certainly were there before the Sidhelien (read Blood Spawn for more on that matter). Thus, the elves are certainly not quite the same as the gods of Cerilia.

Doyle

11-20-2006, 11:55 AM

Actually, elves are neither: ...<snip>... the deities of Cerilia were there before the "elves," in a sense, and they certainly were there before the Sidhelien (read Blood Spawn for more on that matter)...<snip>...

The elves / Sidhe as a race and some of those currenly alive are older than at least 9 of the gods. Manslayer is the easiest example that comes to mind, but certainly there would be others as old or older.

"What need have we to worship the gods that have spawned from lesser races. We have seen (in living memory) the destruction of seven of your so called deities - they are no more immortal than we are. As to power derived from their bloodlines - the land itself can strip those powers away and give them to another on a whim - and just like every natural plant or animal we sidhe are a part of the land - its skin as mebhail is its blood." - Anonamous pointy-ear. ;)

geeman

11-20-2006, 04:01 PM

At 11:07 PM 11/19/2006, kgauck wrote:

>Another argument might involve the nature of the elves. Are they
>auto-creating, immortal beings composed of the elemental structure
>of the universe? Begining to sound at least kind of divine...

I think that`s the best argument against sidhelien apotheosis (which
is a phrase I`ve been wanting to use since I started reading this
thread....) From the elven perspective they already are "little
gods" in a meaningful way, and within their theology (for the
sidhelien aren`t really atheist) they are tied to Aebrynis. Leaving
the material plane to become "a god" is antithetical to their already
immortal nature. From their POV it makes sense to gain power, of
course, but ascension would be something of a diversion rather than
an ultimate achievement.

Gary

RaspK_FOG

11-20-2006, 11:26 PM

Exactly! They are as similar as they are different to them!

And, to point out how things truly are, the Sidhelien were not there when the original 7 deities walked on the world that was to be Aebrynis.

Doyle

11-21-2006, 09:33 AM

...<snip>...And, to point out how things truly are, the Sidhelien were not there when the original 7 deities walked on the world that was to be Aebrynis.

Lack of sleep may mean that I am missing the point of this, but how do you mean "not there"?
They walked onto the field of battle with Azrai (famous battle - Mount something or other), most changing sides or just leaving when they realised just who they were fighting with. Then Azrai and the other six went down (that was the seven I was referring to). Eight rose in their place and another three followed in the centuries after, these would be the ones that some elves would be older than.
As a side note, from the original rulebook, only Moradin and Kartathok are the only surviving pre-Deismar deities and thus the only ones that could be older than some elves - could that be correct?

RaspK_FOG

11-21-2006, 10:57 AM

That is correct, only these are as old... Or is it?
(again, please read Blood Spawn)

What I meant was that the old deities were the first to be "born" off the land, neither elves nor dragons... True, they were close seconds (the dragons being WAY closer than the elves [again, Blood Spawn]), but not there.

irdeggman

11-21-2006, 11:51 AM

Just to help people with the constant references to Blood Spawn here is some of the pertinent text.

Pg 5 of Blood Spawn.

When Two World Were One sidebar. . . .

The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods. But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone of the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity— as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis—owe their existence to him.

The elements of permanence and transience—light and shadow—warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants. The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.

Also pg 27 under seelie faerie. . .

The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves).

The force that spilt the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities—a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself.

Though the ancient link between the two peoples has long since been forgotten by all but the Faerie Queen (the only surviving Sie), to this day, when an elf is born in Cerilia, a new faerie appears in the Seelie Court. While it is possible that a traveling elf or faerie could meet its counterpart, no one knows what would happen in such an extraordinary event.

Unless slain, seelie faeries are immortal in the Shadow World but mortal in Cerilia. Conversely, elves are immortal in Cerilia but mortal in the Shadow World. The faeries are as attuned to the nature of the Shadow World as elves are to Cerilia. This link enables them to exist in such a hostile environment with virtually no natural predators. The evil of the Shadow World , however, holds plenty of unnatural ones.

Seelie faeries are generally vegetarians, subsisting primarily on fruits, nuts, roots, and seeds. They do, however, eat meat when it is offered to them. The fair folk have an aversion to milk—a means by which savvy individuals have been known to expose a faerie so masked in the Seeming that its identity was otherwise indetermineable.

Talaran

11-23-2006, 03:06 AM

To play devil's advocate, well early into the discussion someone said that there is no pre-existing example of anyone ascending to god status after Deismaar, but that is not completely correct. The servants of the Serpent claims that "he has ascended to a heavenly throne and now comes to the mortal world of Cerilia in his tangible form only when it pleases him to do so." The Serpent, furthermore, somehow has the ability to grant up to 5th level spells. This is stated in the Serpent section of the Blood Enemies book. And while it is possible that the Serpent has become a recluse and suddenly no longer wishes his subjects to stand in his glory, it does not explain that he can grant clerical spells to his priests.

Talaran

Gman

02-09-2007, 07:51 AM

Good quotes from iredeggman!

The original premise is that because the magical energy released at Desimar is "god energy" that enough of it would bring someone closer to ascending.
Not a bad idea.
But you should never make anything easy for your players - make them work for everthing as otherwise they don't value it - slow them down - let them crawl towards demi godhood.

The Energy of the Land - giving regency and sometimes granting spontaneous blood powers is somehow connected with the release of power at desimar but not -in my understanding completely defined in the writings of BR.

Elves are more likely to have access to ancient Laylines of extreme power!

One idea I've enjoyed is giving the elves ancient "Taigs" Holy places of stored magical power - usually stone, glades or lakes where they deposit magical energy - this energy can be drawn on by those that best understand what the magic is intented for - the protection of the land, and furthering Elven kind. (house rule)

The Gorgon chose not to ascend- all that paperwork; priests praying at him wanting stuff from him all the time- sending avatars here and there -obviously not his scene.

Of course has anyone considered that if the Gorgon has been poaching bloodlines for 1000 years that even at the rate of one blood point a year...

Stealing the name from a isolated tower in the middle of nowhere Malentor's tower (birthright computer game) I used the name Malentor for an archmage researching ascention.
Birthright was his chosen domain of research.

The Plan.
Research everthing possible about bloodlines and blood magic. - Tomes and artifacts essential.

Gain personal bloodline.
- how does a non Cerilian gain bloodline - several ways - one is the gifting of it. (Quest for players)
- Tigmaverial - who has it where can I get it. Stated that only about 8 items exist but more than this are listed in individual items. (Quest for players) mabey steal it from the Gorgons throne room eh?

Discover that even upon possessing tighmaverial with archmage skills and intelligence to match he can't reproduce it.

- seek the lost lore of tigmaverial. Very hard quest for players seeing the smith is allegedly dead. (decided this wasn't exactly the case in my world).

- Crafting Tigmaverial - special materials needed.
-Design God slaying Tigmaverial Weapon. (preferably evil god slaying only)

Craft it on Moradin's Mountaintop forge. - pacify angry dwarven city after desecrating their holy place.

Travel back from Cerilia to the forgotten Realms.

Find specific Portals for travelling the planes.

Select target for god slaying weapon.(Vehrune)
Convince enemies of the god that they should help. (Most elven deities hate him but Elistraee one of the "easiest".

Make sure intended god doesn't find out about it.

simultaneously ambush all avatars. (3 I think)

Attack his throne room on home plane - (hase lots of shadowdragons as pets so watch out for shrinking levels) + spend lots of time ducking and weaving.
*Do not attempt this without help from other gods.

Use spellfire/wild magical power from exploding Darkelven city to power transition.(blowing up darkeven city can be done in conjuction with killing avatar). Holy figure appears above many population centres speaking works of wisdom.

Get players to roll 50/50 chance for character/Npc to be allowed to ascend - The attempt is weighted in the balance by Aule ... Otherwise death or other nasty things can result.

Players get to be hunted by minions of Lothe, Gunedar, and Vehrune. (although Vehrune reduced to demi power and lost part of portfolio). but they do have a fledgling god of intrigue as a buddy.

During this time (several years of playing) the Pc's went from about 3rd to about 15th level.

Not easy.

Apologies for the spelling of certain names as I wasn't home to check them.

oximoron

03-13-2007, 07:45 PM

There is certainly nothing that says that elves cannot become or have gods. The quotes from irdeggman say that elves do not worship human gods. But would an ascended elf be a "human" god or a god like the human gods. The elves would not worship such a deity but would have to agree with the principles involved. A new elven deity would probably take up a similar role as the teachers in elven society currently have (don't remember the name for it at the moment). That is to guide but not to be blindly worshiped.

Many elves are unlikely to ever trust any god at all so if there was a new religion it would likely not spread very fast.

As to how to achieve divinity there should never be just one method of gaining it if that is the route that the DM wishes for the players to go.

For elves the process may involve for example.
To find their seelie double and merge/conquer/vanquish
To discover the source of the ancient layline system and bathe in the power of nature.
To gain divine assistance to pass the threshold of divinity.
Vanquish a divine being diametrically opposed to you
To gain total power over a realm in both Aebrynis and the Shadow world
To take both Seelie and Bloodlines to a certain level (the seelie ability to manipulate the Shadow world that is)
To reach a certain point of arcane knowledge and perform an epic ritual(what is the highest NPC arcane level known)
To gain possession of an artifact of extreme power (example the Sielehr)

MatanThunder

03-14-2007, 12:31 AM

:D ;)

NOTE: Old school second edition and literature reference here!!!!

The ideas of ascension, especially as it takes place in early Cerilia is hardly novel in the gaming community as a whole and in other campaigns fantasy literature has done that very thing.

I wouldn't say that the comparison is completely paralell, but the premise certainly draws the two versions together.

In the Time of Troubles on Faerun the Dieties are tossed out of the heavens by Ao. The situation leads to all sorts of mischief, which included the death of certain gods on the surface of that planet itself.

Bane is killed (he comes back smaller though) as does Bhaal & Myrkul. And Mystara the Goddess of Magic also takes the final dirt nap too. Their essences energies are spread about the world of Faerun, but some adventurers pick up on these essences.

The character of Midnight takes on the revised role of Mystra, Cyric picks up Banes, Bhaals, & Myrkuls Patheons. There were one or two other members of the group to become embroiled in this ascension process, but Adon & Kelemvor are not ascended.

The method of the ascension of these two former NPC's is somewhat akin to the drops of devine energy that spewed about mount Deismaar. In the Time of Troubles on Faerun the essences of the gods that were destroyed took on the forms of invisible tokens/totems of power, that were only visible to a few like the Chosen (7 sisters & Elminster) and also the chosen new deities could track such vast stores of devine energy. They continued to come across a number of such tokens/totems even after the Times of Troubles, which is how Bane got back into the picture. (I believe).

Now in the 2nd Edition Atlas of Cerilia, they say, "In their proximity to the gods, they (champions of the gods) had taken the brunt of divine essence released by their gods' death that washed across the land." & "The shampions, also closest to the gods in their ideals were elevated to replace the vanished dieties".

This is similar to the Faerunian Deities Cyric and Mystra as they were close to the dieing dieties when they assumed/ascended to their divine energy. It may also beg the question of if there is a Divine presence like Ao at work in Cerilia, because who is it that did the elevating. Others who have posted on this thread have mentioned ways to ascend, that are not quite of the flavor that the current deities of Cerilia were elevated.

Now there are ways of ascension that have a more progressive method of achievement, and may find a place in some DM's games in BR, but I only mention them to give background to support those who have mentioned other ways of ascension.

In Dark Sun they have a path to ascend that is plotted through defilement magic with ascension/transformation into the Dragons of Dark Sun that is a part of the process of becoming a Priest King for one of the cities of Dark Sun. The forces of good and nature have their own with the magic of preserver magic, which allows the ascension/transformation into a Avangion. It is a path to a sort of divinity in Dark Sun.

In a real old school twist, the world of Mystara has a very straight if difficult and epic pathway to divinity that most often requires a sponsor and the creation of an item of artifact level that is part of the ascension process. It is allowed, although I have yet to meet someone who has RPG'd it to the final conclusion. Becoming a deity.

For myself, while it is possible to ascend in a couple of ways, I will always favor a form of semi PC retirement that allows the PC to operate from behind the scenes, which in the BR game may mean that one of the PC's offspring have taken up the mantel and the Ruler simply takes a more circumspect and secretive role in the ruling of a region.

Just ideas....

Later

;) :cool: