Couple unit ideas for critique/balance discussion

[Starmage21]

my first idea is golems. These guys would be serious tanks on a battlefield, unfortunately, the cost to create them in the DMG is prohibitive(even on a gold bar standard).

Muster cost: High? The cost to buy a stone golem on the open market is 90,000gp or about 45 Gold Bars!
Maintenance cost: 1/4 GB why? Golems dont need much, except the odd spell to heal their damage, and a few "golem wranglers" who order the golem about in battle.
Defense: 28-30; Golems have Dr 15/Adamantine, and they cant be critically hit. No footsoldier stands a chance at harming it, but then maybe the unit is carrying a few special measures in the rear ranks. A veteran unit should have a very hard time hitting the golem, and an attached hero unit should be able to affect the unit enough to make the rare hit.
Hits: 2-3; the odd chance that they are damaged, you would think it would be from artillery fire or a rare weapon capable of dealing more than 15 damage on a hit. Even so, any damage they do take is going to be small.
Ranged: no
Melee: High Maybe +12 or greater. Even against fortifications, a golem will smash its way through walls to complete it's objective.
Morale:--(nonability) even if the golem wranglers run away or get killed, the golem would still try to complete it's objective. As such it should be considered alot like an undead unit.


"fluff" - I figure a unit of golems is actually a single golem (like a naval unit) with a smattering of lesser unimportant troops whose sole job is to order the golem around. Even though it is unrealistic that a single golem could deal significant damage to a unit of 200 men at arms, you have to consider the way this thing might fight. It would probobly be ordered to charge into the middle of units (trampling/killing several men in the process) and each round its going to kill 2 men at arms. I figure a battle round is alot longer than a D&D round simply because a battle like we're used to seeing would last minutes or longer. That gives a golem ample time to crush and kill 200+ men at arms.

[Thorogood Roele]

Indeed golems would be deadly on the battlefield, but let's not forget just one thing..... remember just how high level of a mage is required to create one. This makes it nearly impossible to even do, after you have the insane amount of gold required for one. Then factor the chances that their may be a mage on the opposite side that can destroy it, and no right minded ruler would even consider risking 45GB on one, when he could instead have a dozen units of knights on the field for the same price.

[Mikal]

actually a mage would be useless: magic immunity for golems. And thats sort of the point for the unit: yes you can buy one unit of golem for the price of ten knights, but it'll take those ten knights to destroy the golem: a sort of shock and awe unit

[graham anderson]

One of the mages in khinasi uses gholems but they are not given unit stats If I remember correctly. They sound mighty hard though.

[Fizz]

One of the mages in khinasi uses gholems but they are not given unit stats If I remember correctly. They sound mighty hard though.

Are you referring to the Meharmaine, created by el-Sirad (formerly of Khourane)?

The 3E Birthright document has them in the monster chapter. They're not golems in the standard MM sense, but are very golem-like.


-Fizz

[graham anderson]

yes that is what I was thinking of they are like unique golems. It is possible in a game but very very rare and expensive.

[Starmage21]

so, now that the possibility question is aside, how should it be balanced?

Should I work along the lines that if it takes a veteran unit a 19-20 to hit and damage the thing, than it should cost as much to muster as 19-20 units of veteran soldiers?

The undead have awesome defense too, and I figured thats because of their toughness(Damage Reduction in regular D&D), so along those lines is where my proposed golem defense numbers come from.

[graham anderson]

I would prefer rare/unigue things like this to be balanced by their initial cost and the time needed to be researched along with a high caster level. Also maybe rare components that need to be found.

Similarly someone could hire/make a unit of giants in birthright with a good adventure etc and such a unit would also be mighty powerfull but expensive. A few more units races etc in the brcs would be good. I know I have made some up in my time.

[graham anderson]

Maybe I wasn't too clear I would think a set number of turns to produce such a unit if componets are around and a large initial cost with a small amount of upkeep if you manage to make it.

[Starmage21]

Maybe I wasn't too clear I would think a set number of turns to produce such a unit if componets are around and a large initial cost with a small amount of upkeep if you manage to make it.

I would assume that since gp costs to create are given that magical components are readily available, just that the culture of magic makes magic items rare in the high magic world of cerilia.

The biggest feat I would imagine is convincing the spellcasters of the realms to create the unit for you.

That whole "Magic belongs in the hands of those whove earned the right to wield it" deal might be the biggest thing to overcome.

Mustering a unit over several turns might lessen the hit on the nations economy for 1 big unit instead of several smaller ones.

[graham anderson]

The biggest problem would be to have a trustworthy wizard or wizards do it for you as there are very few that could. This would make it near impossible unless you were the wizard in question. They would still nead to know how to do it magic on that scale is few and far between so they would likely need to research it unless you go to the guy in khinasi and he doesn't sound too trustworthy.

[Starmage21]

The biggest problem would be to have a trustworthy wizard or wizards do it for you as there are very few that could. This would make it near impossible unless you were the wizard in question. They would still nead to know how to do it magic on that scale is few and far between so they would likely need to research it unless you go to the guy in khinasi and he doesn't sound too trustworthy.

problem is making a magic item(which is essentially what a golem is) was a big deal in 2e, and it isnt anymore. All it takes is a wizard with the right spells and caster level, and the Craft Construct feat. With the onset of 3e, it is no longer assumed that information is that hard to find.

The only part where this rubs the setting wrong has to do with the culture of magic i mentioned before.

[graham anderson]

It becomes a problem as wizards are rare and usualy low level. How many wizards would have craft construct. I would still consider research necessary just to get the feat in the birthright this is no forgotten realms thank goodness.

[Starmage21]

It becomes a problem as wizards are rare and usualy low level. How many wizards would have craft construct. I would still consider research necessary just to get the feat in the birthright this is no forgotten realms thank goodness.

I guess that wizards are rare, but given a golem's status as a "magic item" I dont see why it would require anymore research than making any other magic item which requires a feat to create.

[Mikal]

The only problem with forcing research for certain feats is that it becomes a slippery slope: what about other feats, such as metamagic? Are they too, rare and thus undiscovered? What about somewhat rare non magic feats such as weapon mastery, for those who become high level fighters and want to use the PHB? How do you adjuicate the 'worth' of said feats when it comes to xp/time/gold costs for research?

[graham anderson]

It comes down to the dm of course but things like creating a golem is very different from practicing with a sword and there are restrictions by culture race etc anyway (Well maybe not restriction but heavy biases). How would you know the feat, does it pop into your head it depends on how you view experience, feats etc in a rare magic world I would say you would need good reason IE training or research to be able to take it. Feats do have requirements and in birthright I feal training or research into the subject would be a good requirement.

[Starmage21]

It comes down to the dm of course but things like creating a golem is very different from practicing with a sword and there are restrictions by culture race etc anyway (Well maybe not restriction but heavy biases). How would you know the feat, does it pop into your head it depends on how you view experience, feats etc in a rare magic world I would say you would need good reason IE training or research to be able to take it. Feats do have requirements and in birthright I feal training or research into the subject would be a good requirement.


I take it then that you hold the same views on all item creation feats?

[graham anderson]

For most of them you can take anything you meat the requirements for at creation as you can add it into your background. Outside of creation things get harder finding information or knowing information on say craft wonderous item or making weapons etc might be relativly common place so I would have a problem with someone taking them. Rarer and more powerful things are different though I think it comes down to a DM decision I have been known to be quite harsh to players about skills and level.

Examples being.

Player1: I want to gain a level in wizard.

DM: How whats your reason you havn't cast a single spell or used your magical skills.

Player1: But I gain a higher level spell slot if I gain a level.

DM: Tough you can wait until you can spend the time to gain a level or take something else.

[Starmage21]

Craft Construct is an item creation feat though.

*edit*
and it deals with creating all constructs from Homonculi to golems.

by all rights, a wizard could craft constuct as early as 3rd level

[graham anderson]

I dont see it as a common magic in birthright and in the other D&D books there are lots of rare magic feats that can be taken I think that as it is not widely known it should require more than an I take that feat.

[bosssmiley]

IIRC the nearest thing I ever saw to a traditional golem in 2nd Ed Birthright was the Binman, a flesh golem (from the fluff) that became an Awnsheigh in the same lab accident that created the Chimaera.

Wanna create a golem in Cerilia? OK. That knowledge was lost during the fall of the Anuirean Empire, or maybe earlier. Time to head off to some old Masetian ruins, or to the Chimaereon, or maybe the ancient empires of Aduria to rediscover the fabled techniques of infusing life into matter (in game terms it's a simple Manual of Golems, possibly preserved as an encoded fresco or mural in a static location).

Get home, gather components, fork over the substantial GBs in creation costs, maybe substitute some bloodline strength for XP costs (hey, it's Cerilia and it's lost ancient magic) and expend the research actions to create. Expect every mage regent and magic-casting Awnsheighlen to want the knowledge for themself though.

For a golem war unit? Repeat the above process 10 times or more, and expect some serious political repurcussions from your wartech drive, oh Beloved Leader Regent Kim.
And watch out for that pesky Azrai taint, it gets everywhere. :D

[Starmage21]

For a golem war unit? Repeat the above process 10 times or more, and expect some serious political repurcussions from your wartech drive, oh Beloved Leader Regent Kim.
And watch out for that pesky Azrai taint, it gets everywhere. :D

2 things:

#1: LOL
#2: a 3e golem (stone, iron, or greater stone) has sufficient strength to annihlate armies by itself. Cr 11 Stone Golem, CR 13 Iron Golem, and CR 16 Greater Stone Golem couldnt hope to be hurt any number of footsoldiers really with DR 15/Adamantine and a near complete immunity to magic.

[irdeggman]

A couple of things.

Check the special material availability table. Adamantine is available in dwarven lands. It is not routinely (as in no where as common as in other D&D worlds) in other lands.


Also whenever Chap 8 is redone it will include what was voted on before that the default will be that BRCS is a low-magic item world and not a variant that it is. My personal opinion on that one is to use the information in Complete Warrior and just up the gp cost of magic items (except for scrolls and potions) by 200-300%. This translates into increased gp material costs and a corresponding increase in the xp cost to manufacture magical items.

[Magnus Argent]

2 things:

#1: LOL
#2: a 3e golem (stone, iron, or greater stone) has sufficient strength to annihlate armies by itself. Cr 11 Stone Golem, CR 13 Iron Golem, and CR 16 Greater Stone Golem couldnt hope to be hurt any number of footsoldiers really with DR 15/Adamantine and a near complete immunity to magic.

That's where adventurers come in. ;)

Should Golems be immune to battle magic? How about realm magic?

[Thorogood Roele]

1st I would like to state that I only deal with 2nd ed so a few of my standards may be a little different than the third ed variation, but for the most part logic rules here, not just the rules.



You all are still forgetting some very simple basics.
1st, just exactly how high a level mage is required to produce a golem????? In 2nd ed it would be pretty much 14th level?? The only mages of that level are unsheighlen, and only 3 or 4 at that anyways. If I remember correctly golems would indeed be permanent magical creations and thus cost the mage a point of constitution (at least by 2nd ed standards). How many mages are going to give that up, figuring that the average mage only has about a 10 constitution to begin with. Especially considering again, that the golem can be very effectively neutralized on the battle field, especially with magic there. (I will argue that point later). Also lets remember the very nature of the Birthright world, very low magic. A +1 sword is suppose to be very significant, and very valuable.

2nd, units are commanded by high level captains, which are, indeed with them on the battle field, thus, a 200 man unit is not just 200 0-level soldiers (assuming it's a new unit, if the unit has seen enough combat, they would be higher level). A unit of knights by its very nature is an entire unit of soldiers with weapon specialization, and very high level characters. The elite of the elite. The commanders of units of knights are going to be very well trained fighters and will with some reasonability, being nobles, have a magic weapon. Even in just regular units, these commanders are very skilled fighers, usually having specialization or even mastery, especially in the case of a unit of knights. Using the standard for military units, usually 10 men to a squad having a sgt which is roughly 3rd level, 5 squads to a platoon having a Lt usually 5th level, 4 platoons to a unit having a commander roughly 7th level. There are also varying levels of officers in between, ie a squad would have a corporal, etc. There are very capable soldeirs on that battle field, a 7th level fighter, perhaps even having mastery of a sword, 4 5th level Lts also specialized, etc. For the cost of a golem, 40 gb, give me 7 units of knights, just their commanders 7, 7th level weapon masters and you will see that golem fall indeed, not to mention all the other knights acompanying them.

3rd, artillery can indeed target a single golem due to their size (assuming they are large or larger). And (again by 2nd ed system) artillery act as magical weapons for purposes of hitter creatures requiring magic weapons to damage them.

4th and most importantly, mages and priests can still neutralize a golem very effectively without even targeting the golem itself and thus not even needing to consider its magic resistance. A dig spell, causing a very large hole under the golems feet is not subject to the golems magic resistance, nor would spells making large items fall on them, etc. etc. Transmute rock to mud would indeed completely neuralize the thing as well. Finally, (since I don't have my books handy due to moving) if I remember correctly, very few golems (if any) are completely immune to all forms of magic. Assuming that you allow mages to flow freely enough in your campaign to be able to create one in the first place, the opposition to the golems are likely to have similar magics at their disposal, and thus all kinds of ways of completely wasting that regents 40 gb. And no sane regent would be all his eggs in one basket.

[Mikal]

1st I would like to state that I only deal with 2nd ed so a few of my standards may be a little different than the third ed variation, but for the most part logic rules here, not just the rules.



You all are still forgetting some very simple basics.
1st, just exactly how high a level mage is required to produce a golem????? In 2nd ed it would be pretty much 14th level?? The only mages of that level are unsheighlen, and only 3 or 4 at that anyways. If I remember correctly golems would indeed be permanent magical creations and thus cost the mage a point of constitution (at least by 2nd ed standards). How many mages are going to give that up, figuring that the average mage only has about a 10 constitution to begin with. Especially considering again, that the golem can be very effectively neutralized on the battle field, especially with magic there. (I will argue that point later). Also lets remember the very nature of the Birthright world, very low magic. A +1 sword is suppose to be very significant, and very valuable.

Well in 3rd edition it's a little easier. You could be around 10th level or thereabouts and theoretically create a golem. It doesnt cost Con, but rather XP and gold, in this case one could probably use RP and GB to make the unit.


2nd, units are commanded by high level captains, which are, indeed with them on the battle field, thus, a 200 man unit is not just 200 0-level soldiers (assuming it's a new unit, if the unit has seen enough combat, they would be higher level). A unit of knights by its very nature is an entire unit of soldiers with weapon specialization, and very high level characters. The elite of the elite. The commanders of units of knights are going to be very well trained fighters and will with some reasonability, being nobles, have a magic weapon. Even in just regular units, these commanders are very skilled fighers, usually having specialization or even mastery, especially in the case of a unit of knights. Using the standard for military units, usually 10 men to a squad having a sgt which is roughly 3rd level, 5 squads to a platoon having a Lt usually 5th level, 4 platoons to a unit having a commander roughly 7th level. There are also varying levels of officers in between, ie a squad would have a corporal, etc. There are very capable soldeirs on that battle field, a 7th level fighter, perhaps even having mastery of a sword, 4 5th level Lts also specialized, etc. For the cost of a golem, 40 gb, give me 7 units of knights, just their commanders 7, 7th level weapon masters and you will see that golem fall indeed, not to mention all the other knights acompanying them.

In 3rd edition those high level captains are represented by the heros unit. Otherwise the leaders of the units are mid level NPC classes, for the most part. Heros units could concieveably go toe-to-toe with a golem unit and survive/win.


3rd, artillery can indeed target a single golem due to their size (assuming they are large or larger). And (again by 2nd ed system) artillery act as magical weapons for purposes of hitter creatures requiring magic weapons to damage them.

Technically artillary could, but in 3rd edition rules, they wouldnt do much damage, probably 5-10 hp per hit. Thus they'd have a chance to damage it, but you'd need to bear several such units at the golem, units that could be foiled with battle magic walls of force or wind walls.


4th and most importantly, mages and priests can still neutralize a golem very effectively without even targeting the golem itself and thus not even needing to consider its magic resistance. A dig spell, causing a very large hole under the golems feet is not subject to the golems magic resistance, nor would spells making large items fall on them, etc. etc.

No dig spell in 3rd edition, and causing objects to 'fall' on the golem again, have to get past their strong Damage Reduction. It's possible, and would definatly give bonuses on attack rolls against a golem unit, but they wouldnt easily destroy such a unit.


Transmute rock to mud would indeed completely neuralize the thing as
well.

Again, 2nd edition, not 3rd.


Finally, (since I don't have my books handy due to moving) if I remember correctly, very few golems (if any) are completely immune to all forms of magic. Assuming that you allow mages to flow freely enough in your campaign to be able to create one in the first place, the opposition to the golems are likely to have similar magics at their disposal, and thus all kinds of ways of completely wasting that regents 40 gb. And no sane regent would be all his eggs in one basket.

Actually for the most part golems have spell immunity: they're considered to have 'infinite' spell resistance for spells that allow it. That, along with their construct abilities, makes them immune to MOST special affects, including a majority of magic.

And the golem unit could be seen more as a special assault unit, built up slowly over months and years, not something a regent spends ALL his money towards and then sends out alone. Unless said regent is an idiot.