Quesitons regarding BRCS.

[Question]

In chapt 5 it says that a character cannot collect more than twice their bloodline score in RP per turn.

In chapt 2 it says that a character can only collect as many RP per turn as their bloodline score(E.G. 50 bloodline score = 50 max rp per turn).Which is correct?

Chapt 2 says the max reserve is 2x the bloodline score,chapt 5 says 5 times.

Also lietenants no longer get any actions for a domain turn,right?

For HP bonuses due to RP gain,does it mean the RP you collect per domain turn,or RP gained from events,etc?Also it is half your bloodline score,correct?

Btw D20 atlas is mentioned a few times.What is it?

[irdeggman]

In chapt 5 it says that a character cannot collect more than twice their bloodline score in RP per turn.



In chapt 2 it says that a character can only collect as many RP per turn as their bloodline score(E.G. 50 bloodline score = 50 max rp per turn).Which is correct?



Chapt 2 says the max reserve is 2x the bloodline score, chapt 5 says 5 times.



Chap 5 has not been revised yet – so all rules contained in Chap 2 (revised and sanctioned) are the governing authority on bloodlines and anything pertaining to them.






Also lietenants no longer get any actions for a domain turn, right?





Correct as written no free action from Lts.



A domain gets 3 standard actions per season. Each character gets 3 character actions per season (including Lts).



These actions can be done by the regent, his Lt or with no oversight. Basically to gain the benefits of a regent’s skill modifiers (i.e., his skill check) he has to use a character action in combination with the standard action. A Lt can apply his skills in the same manner since he is “designated” to carry the same weight as the regent (e.g., speak for him).






Lieutenants

The court of a powerful regent may have many trusted courtiers, but most courtiers have strictly defined responsibilities and checks and balances to keep them from overstepping their prerogatives. A domain's regent may, however, name one or more of his courtiers as his lieutenant(s). A domain's lieutenants are authorized to speak with the voice of the regent, even to the extent of waging war against a foreign nation, spending significant portions of the realms treasury, dispensing justice, making binding agreements, and other activities that are generally considered the prerogative of the regent alone. Thus a lieutenant can perform most domain actions with the same advantages that a regent receives when personally attending to domain actions and events. Refer to Chapter Eight: Outside the lines for more details on Lieutenants.










For HP bonuses due to RP gain, does it mean the RP you collect per domain turn,or RP gained from events, etc? Also it is half your bloodline score, correct?



The limit is half your bloodline score (and then only if you have at least 1 level of scion class).



It does not say or address where the RP comes from – so it can come from anywhere – although the maximum limit for hit points always applies.






Btw D20 atlas is mentioned a few times. What is it?



There is an entire section dedicated to discussion of the d20 Atlas. Basically it is to contain all of the non-rules stuff. Sort of a combination of the player’s secrets books and the various expansions (Ruins of Empire, Cities in the Sun, etc.)



The first section (Anuire) is mostly completed as I understand it. Raesene Andu is in charge of that project.

[Question]

What is this maximum limit for hitpoinst?

[irdeggman]

What is this maximum limit for hitpoinst?

From Chap 2 under scion class:


Bonus Hit Points: A scion receives bonus hit points each season based on the amount of RP he receives up to a maximum of one-half his blood score, rounded down – minimum of one.


This is a bonus that is added to any hitpoints the character has due to class and other modifiers (either feats or Con bonuses). This is a class ability so only characters with levels in the scion class get this bonus.

[Question]

Huh that seems a little odd to me.So since RP from collection can be counted as bonus hitpoints doesnt that mean a 50 bloodline score regent collecting 50 RPs per season gets 25 bonus HP every season, to the tune of 100 HP per year?That doesnt seem right.

[irdeggman]

Huh that seems a little odd to me.So since RP from collection can be counted as bonus hitpoints doesnt that mean a 50 bloodline score regent collecting 50 RPs per season gets 25 bonus HP every season, to the tune of 100 HP per year? That doesnt seem right.

No that is not what it means.

The bonus changes with conditions and is not a cumulative thing.

So if a regent increases his regency (i.e. rule and influence) it is reflected with a higher hit point total while if he lowers his regency (i.e., lower influence) his hit point total is less.

This number is reset on a seasonal basis and is awarded at the start of each season (that is the intent).

In order to get the full 25 hit point bonus the regent in question would have to have sufficient holdings (and possibly tribute) to receive 50 RP a season.

[epicsoul]

Correct as written no free action from Lts.



A domain gets 3 standard actions per season. Each character gets 3 character actions per season (including Lts).



These actions can be done by the regent, his Lt or with no oversight. Basically to gain the benefits of a regent’s skill modifiers (i.e., his skill check) he has to use a character action in combination with the standard action. A Lt can apply his skills in the same manner since he is “designated” to carry the same weight as the regent (e.g., speak for him).



I have always been a bit concerned about this. It's a bit complicated, but bear with me here... there is a problem, then a solution. I was wondering how many of you out there have encountered something like this before...

First: Let us assume you are a scion w/o any holdings. Let us then assume that through some time in game, you acquire a massive fortune. Oh... let's say 20 GB worth, through adventuring over a fair career. You have won and lost battles, had PCs come and go through the group, even have a magic item or two (I run a REALLY low magic BR) within the group.

You then decide, it is time to start that realm of yours. You create a law 0. You are now, officially, a realm ruler, the moment you create a holding. Thus, you can now do your 3 actions a turn. However, the very act of creating that law 0 was NOT a character action, it was a realm action... which you are not entitled to, because you aren't a ruler. Yet, clearly, others have started their realms from "scratch". So, you must be able to. And if a PC can do it, then an NPC must be able to as well.

It gets worse. You have... oh, let's say 3 blooded henchmen/followers that accompanied you on all those grandiose adventures from the old days. You lend them money, so that each of them can build MORE level 0 holdings, then rule them up. Admittedly, they are holdings of their own, but you entrust that they will be loyal to you. That they will be "vassals". At this point, theoretically, they could be construed as either new, independent characters/rulers, or they could still be lieutenants. For the sake of simplicity, they are new vassals of yours.

Obviously, as you can tell, this did happen in an adventuring campaign I was running for BR. The player "founded" a new realm... and overthrew the current ruler of a few of their provinces. Basically, the realm was split in two. Then, the player, wanting to destabilize the other (NPC) ruler, asked why they couldn't use their lt. for extra actions, as obviously, they were capable of working independently. I went with the rules, and the player got frustrated. Mainly, his plan was to send his lt's in, under his regency protection (throwing his RPs at countering the NPC's espionage actions to assasinate/law holding's attempts to arrest), and have the three of them EACH build level 0 law holdings, then begin contesting the law of the current ruler... and using their law holdings to reduce domain attitude every turn (just by being hostile to them)... even throwing in "free" agitates via the lead skill. Obviously, this would mean that the player would be getting 12 actions a turn, against the NPC ruler's 3. No contest there, so I knew that it had to be blocked.

Again, though, the player asked why it couldn't happen. After all, they were acting in his orders... The player got frustrated, as to him, it did not make any sense. So frustrated that it began to infect the other player's; after all, no player likes to be told when asked why they can't do something "It's the rules."

Finally, I realized there was a way to do this. If the player did a ceremony and invested each as being a vassal of his, giving them RP as well as an initial allotment of GB, they could go, and start performing the actions. It kept them NPC, with their own desires and mandates, which allowed them to occasionally to do an action of their own, rather than what they were "ordered" to do by their PC ruler. However, the odd thing was that the player was investing vassals that had NO holdings to begin with, only once they started to build them. An odd situation, to be sure, and not something that I could find really covered as an example in the rule set.

In the end, it didn't matter. The player was... cheap... with his RP endowments on the new vassals, and while new level 0 holdings were started, the NPC ruler quickly rooted 2 out of 3 out with a combination of espionage actions and agitate (turned the local populace against the one, and the mob got ahold of him), and eliminated them (one was bloodthefted, the mob tore apart the other guy). The third managed to take an additional, low level, province away from the ruler, and became a Count under the PC ruler. However, he was never quite the same, not trusting the PC ruler so much, after seeing two of his other companions killed because the PC didn't support them properly... and so the stage was set for future relations between vassal and liege...

So, back to what I was saying.... the problem here with the Lt. no (extra) action rule: that they are only capable of making character actions, unless they act in the regent's stead. Obviously, Lt's must be able to make regent actions, because they could always choose to become independent... but doing so, they must either become vassals, or become a new, independent realm.

Obviously, the game chooses to abstract many things. Players will often wonder why they can't get extra actions when a lieutenant is acting independently... so, now you have a way to justify it, without just citing the rules as I did initially, which I hated doing.

I think this was a cautionary tale... but it had a happy ending. Still, it also makes for some interesting points, such as:

Keep your Lt's busy with character actions. If you don't, they have time off, and that can be used for their own actions. They may have time, and the money, to create a holding of their own. Later in the game, another NPC blooded follower created a level 0 law holding in a neighbouring realm, which sparked a war...

Releasing Lts with loads of money into a realm can cause great damage... if they aren't captured (with GB intact for the capturer). However, they aren't truly reporting to you...

Lastly, Lt's often are played as extensions of the regent's character. However, a wise player should remember that a crafty DM will give the Lt their own desires and wishes, that may conflict with your own (even when you are the same alignment). Thus, see the first point: keep 'em busy!

[Sorontar]

Just thinking about this from the point-of-view of the "spirit of the rules" (or my interpretation of what is Birthright) I would think that holders of 0 level holdings can't really do realm actions because the holdings don't yet have enough notoriety/influence/reputation to do such actions. If you were a director from a big company and the owner of a couple of corner stores wanted to do a business deal with, would you care? If a number of unknown clerics were walking around town trying to convince you that the local Count was a devil in disguise, would you listen? While I can see no problems with starting up 0 level holdings, getting them to level 1 should be extremely hard as you will be working against established institutions.... perhaps being limited to only 1 realm action per round, or not being able to execute all listed realm actions until the holding is level 1 (e.g. can only agitate at level 1).

Just a thought.

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

You then decide, it is time to start that realm of yours. You create a law 0. You are now, officially, a realm ruler, the moment you create a holding.



Good point. Create Holding should probably have an annotation about this. Although in 2nd ed basically someone else created the holding for a character and then invested him with it. That could still serve as the default. Also any regent with similar holdings or the province ruler can oppose said action and the non-regent scion attempting to create the holding has no RP with which to modify the success roll.




Create Holding [Standard; Administrate; 1 GB]

A regent wishing to establish a holding in a province where he has no holdings of a specific type may attempt to create a holding (0). Once created, the regent is free to Rule the holding to a higher level (if the province level permits such growth) or to contest existing holdings in order to increase the influence of his holdings.

The base DC for the domain action check is 10. As usual for standard domain actions, holdings of the same type as you are attempting to create may apply their level as a bonus or penalty to the action check. In addition, however, law holdings may apply their levels as a bonus or penalty to the action check if the target holding is a guild or temple. As usual, all regents with a presence in the province may bid RP to support or oppose the check



So it is very hard for a scion to create a holding without having any RP without the support of the province ruler and/or other non-landed regents in the province.




It gets worse. You have... oh, let's say 3 blooded henchmen/followers that accompanied you on all those grandiose adventures from the old days. You lend them money, so that each of them can build MORE level 0 holdings, then rule them up. Admittedly, they are holdings of their own, but you entrust that they will be loyal to you. That they will be "vassals". At this point, theoretically, they could be construed as either new, independent characters/rulers, or they could still be lieutenants. For the sake of simplicity, they are new vassals of yours.



Oops – there are no henchmen anymore and in order to gain followers you either need to use one of the options in Chap 8 or have the Leadership feat.




Obviously, as you can tell, this did happen in an adventuring campaign I was running for BR. The player "founded" a new realm... and overthrew the current ruler of a few of their provinces. Basically, the realm was split in two. Then, the player, wanting to destabilize the other (NPC) ruler, asked why they couldn't use their lt. for extra actions, as obviously, they were capable of working independently. I went with the rules, and the player got frustrated. Mainly, his plan was to send his lt's in, under his regency protection (throwing his RPs at countering the NPC's espionage actions to assasinate/law holding's attempts to arrest), and have the three of them EACH build level 0 law holdings, then begin contesting the law of the current ruler... and using their law holdings to reduce domain attitude every turn (just by being hostile to them)... even throwing in "free" agitates via the lead skill. Obviously, this would mean that the player would be getting 12 actions a turn, against the NPC ruler's 3. No contest there, so I knew that it had to be blocked.



Well in order to get the “free” agitate action the character must be performing another action at the time in the location in question. So the Lt is using his character action to be there.



A regent can “give” his Lt RP and GB to perform a domain action in his name but this applies to only 1 domain action per month. If a regent or Lt is personally performing the domain action (i.e., a full action) which is a combination of standard and domain actions then (and only then) can all of the regent (or Lt) skill modifiers be added to the check – otherwise it is a straight d20 modified only by RP and holding levels (not counting opposing/supporting regents).




Standard domain action: Each domain normally is allowed one standard domain action per domain round. A regent's standard domain action represents the primary focus or goal of the regent's court and agents for the domain round. The regent need not be physically present for his domain to take a standard action; only routine communication is required. If the regent is unable to communicate to his realm, the character's player should still be allowed to select a reasonable domain action for the domain that represents the court's attempts to maintain the realm in the regent's absence. A regent's court can be reasonably expected to perform the same actions as the regent would; a regent's courtiers make it their business to have a fair idea of the regent's opinions on important matters. A regent can spend regency to support his domain's standard domain actions, regardless of his personal involvement.








Again, though, the player asked why it couldn't happen. After all, they were acting in his orders... The player got frustrated, as to him, it did not make any sense. So frustrated that it began to infect the other player's; after all, no player likes to be told when asked why they can't do something "It's the rules."



The answer is simple – each realm gets exactly 3 domain actions per season and no more. It doesn’t matter if a Lt is performing them or the regent himself there is an absolute limit to the number of domain actions a realm can have per season. The Lt is “acting for” and with “full authority” of the regent. If 2 persons are doing this at the same time, well it just doesn’t make sense does it? Part of performing a domain action is accessing things that are provided by the court and they only have so many resources to go around.

Think of it as akin to the absolute limit to the number of attacks a character can get a round based on his BAB. Non-epic it is 4 in his primary hand (not counting haste or other modifiers).





Finally, I realized there was a way to do this. If the player did a ceremony and invested each as being a vassal of his, giving them RP as well as an initial allotment of GB, they could go, and start performing the actions. It kept them NPC, with their own desires and mandates, which allowed them to occasionally to do an action of their own, rather than what they were "ordered" to do by their PC ruler. However, the odd thing was that the player was investing vassals that had NO holdings to begin with, only once they started to build them. An odd situation, to be sure, and not something that I could find really covered as an example in the rule set.



IMO vassals are no longer under the PC’s control and are instead NPCs controlled by the DM. They may have some sort of loyalty but the fact that they now have power and responsibilities to the land and people under their rule supersede their former “loyalty” to the PC regent.





So, back to what I was saying.... the problem here with the Lt. no (extra) action rule: that they are only capable of making character actions, unless they act in the regent's stead. Obviously, Lt's must be able to make regent actions, because they could always choose to become independent... but doing so, they must either become vassals, or become a new, independent realm.



Yes if they become regents they are no longer Lts and hence (IMO) not under the player’s control.




Obviously, the game chooses to abstract many things.


I think this was a cautionary tale... but it had a happy ending. Still, it also makes for some interesting points, such as:



Keep your Lt's busy with character actions.


Releasing Lts with loads of money into a realm can cause great damage... if they aren't captured (with GB intact for the capturer). However, they aren't truly reporting to you...



However, a wise player should remember that a crafty DM will give the Lt their own desires and wishes, that may conflict with your own (even when you are the same alignment). Thus, see the first point: keep 'em busy!



Always good advice.;)



Note that an agitate action can be “opposed” by the active regent using GB to modify the check also RP may also be spent to oppose (or support the check). Also domain attitude is only changed once per season (at the beginning) so there are pretty sever limitations on how much influence outside agitators can have on the attitude via agitation.

[Question]

Huh RP can be used in agitate?I dont recall seeing the "you are allowed to use RP...." line in chapt 5,only for GB.

[irdeggman]

Huh RP can be used in agitate?I dont recall seeing the "you are allowed to use RP...." line in chapt 5,only for GB.



Agitate [Standard/Realm; Lead; 1 GB]

A regent can use her influence to agitate a province's attitude for or against a person, domain, or idea. A regent can agitate a province's attitude in favor of herself or her allies. Similarly, a regent can agitate a province's attitude disfavorably against their enemies. Agitate can be a powerful weapon.

The Agitate action does not have a standard domain action check. Instead, a domain attitude check is made (as discussed in the section on adjusting domain attitude) but with slightly different adjustments and modifiers. (1) Regardless of the result, the domain's attitude cannot move in the opposite direction of the active regent's intended agitation (up or down). (2) The active regent may spend GB to provide a bonus or penalty to the check (1 GB per +/- 1). (3) The active regent's holding used for the action provides a bonus (or penalty) equal to the holding level. (4) If used against another regent, the target regent's largest holding provides a bonus to the check equal to its level. (5) All regents in the area may spend RP to support or oppose the check, providing a bonus or penalty of one for each RP spent. (6) The domain attitude may not increase or decrease by more than two attitude levels per Agitate action.

[Question]

Btw do RP from vassals count to the RP limit?

Also can you rule a holding twice or more in one turn?

[darkon]

From what I can now read in BRCS, RPs from vassals count to the RP limit (twice the bloodline score).

You may find the answer at chapter 5, page 8 of BRCS revised.

I will come up with the answer to your second question in a while.

[irdeggman]

Also can you rule a holding twice or more in one turn?

Yes you can.

You get 3 domain actions per turn period.

Except for ruling a province you are not limited in the number of times you can rule a holding in a turn except by the number of domain actions you have.

It worked the same way in 2nd ed.

[Question]

The max for RP is 1x bloodline score now it seems(chapter 2 revised IIRC)

I dont understand how you can rule the same holding more than once in a turn.

Lets say this scenario.

Bob wants to rule a level 2 law holding,thereby increasing it to level 3 if it suceeds.

He then uses his 2nd action to rule it from level 3 to 4.

And the 3rd to rule from 4 to 5.

Wait,what if the first action fails?The others cant happen because its still on level 2 isnt it?

Its very similar to contigency actions("okay i will use my first action to contest this holding then use a rule action to rule my holding using the vacant slots").

[irdeggman]

That's because you handle a domain round at a time not by turn. In PBEM games they tend to handle things on a turn basis which forces some kind of contingency style actions - but that is because of the way they are running the game.


The rules are set up for a round at a time. Every regent performs his domain round action in initiative order and they are resolved. Then they proceed to the next round.

So if you attempt to rule a holding up in round 1 and it fails you can attempt again in round 2. If it succeeds in round 1 then you can rule it up to the next level (assuming there are levels available). And so on and so on.

[darkon]

Of course even if the game is set in a faster pace (e.g. 3 domain actions/period) you may set whole cotigency plans.

You may say: "rule holding from 1 to 2 level, and if that succeeds, rule holding 2 to 3 or else repeat domain action 1, etc).

Kind of like programming. At least that was the way I handle a lot of my turns in various pbem games.

[Osprey]

From what I can now read in BRCS, RPs from vassals count to the RP limit (twice the bloodline score).

I hope not! If this is the case, it represents an extreme and dramatic shift in potential power balances in the BR world - most especially for big guys like Darien Avan, who really benefit from bonus RP from vassalage. Considering that vassalage RP, in all former editions, could allow a liege to exceed his bloodline limit, I have a hard time imagining this rule would suddenly change without some extensive discussion within the community.

Perhaps Irdeggman could clarify?

[geeman]

At 01:23 AM 11/22/2005 +0100, Osprey wrote:

>> From what I can now read in BRCS, RPs from vassals count to the RP limit
>> (twice the bloodline score).
>
>I hope not! If this is the case, it represents an extreme and dramatic
>shift in potential power balances in the BR world - most especially for
>big guys like Darien Avan, who really benefit from bonus RP from
>vassalage. Considering that vassalage RP, in all former editions, could
>allow a liege to exceed his bloodline limit, I have a hard time imagining
>this rule would suddenly change without some extensive discussion within
>the community.

I`m with Osprey on this one. It makes for a rather odd rule given not only
the current "power brokers" like Boeruine and Avan (and let`s not forget
the potentially huge vassalage of the Gorgon) but also anyone whose
bloodline and vassalage structures are scaled down. In the backstory of
the setting we have empires that are much more massive than any seen in the
current period. How and why would such an empire exist using such a
restriction on RP from vassals?

That said, it seems like an easy one to ignore should the DM decide he
wants to go with something that would allow for all of the above in his
campaign.

Gary

[irdeggman]

From Ruins of Empire:

Darien Avan, blood score 70.


Regency gained (including from vassals)/accumulated: 93/110



Under the BRCS rules.




The numbers for the missing Blood Score values are the same as for the previously listed Blood Score value with the exception of the Reserve (which is 2X the Blood Score).


He can collect 70 RP directly from holding/provinces.



He can have up to 140 RP in his reserve. Which means he can get 70 RP from vassals, ursurpation, etc.



Both numbers are still below what the BRCS allows.

So I fail to understand why this would cause a problem?

In 2nd ed there was also no limit to the amount of RP a regent could accumulate and it required an action to raise his bloodline score. In the BRCS there is a set limit to how much RP he can accumulate and the conversion is automatic.


It is entirely possible to house rule this to function like the following instead of being an absolute limit at any given time (pretty much what is written).:

The reserve number is calculated at the beginning of each turn so anything that the regent has that would have exceeded it prior to the beginning of the turn is gone. Think of any gains that exceed the reserve as a sort of temporary RP like temporary hit points. It would be possible to exceed the reserve during a turn, but the reserve is calculated at the beginning of the next turn.

[irdeggman]

OK I see the problem from Chap 5:



There is a maximum to the amount of regency that a character can collect per domain turn. A scion can earn no more than twice their current bloodline ability score in domain regency collections per domain turn.

Which based on changes to Chap 2 would correspond to a max RP collectoin (from all sources) equal to the regent's blood line score.

Hmm since this chapter hasn't been revised yet there are definitely 2 ways to go. One is to match the playtest which effectively limited regents, like Avan, from what they had been able to get in 2nd ed.

Interesting how this issue hasn't popped up before.

Or change it to match what I had posted above.

Feedback anyone?

Personal opinion - limiting the RP coming in shouldn't have as much of a neutering effect as people seem to think it may. It may even serve to more even things out game mechanic-wise. Remember that the playtest also had a much less reliance on RP to perfrom domain actions - i.e., most only requied GB in order to perform at all, while RP increased/decreased likelihood of success.

[ausrick]

From the NPC regents I have transfered or made from scratch, a good number of the ones who have decent sized domains are at the point where their domains offer more regency than their bloodline would allow them to collect. To me it would make sense, and I just assumed, that Vassalage was a way to break the max collect barrier but not the reserve, Otherwise there would be a lot less vassalage agreements and a lot more Gold Bar Tribute, I would assume, . . . because your domain can never have too many Gold Bars. **Thinking of Scrooge McDuck swimming in his treasury**

Also another point this brings up. Say I have a domain that could net me 40 RP, but I only have a bloodline that will allow me to collect 20. Say I owe Gavin Tael 9 RP a turn for him to go around me instead of through me on his path to the Iron Throne. Would I collect what my bloodline allows, and then pay him, leaving me only 11 RP per turn, OR would I Collect my maximum from the land, Pay my vassalage, and then since I am in excess of what I am allowed to collect because of my bloodline loose the excess and only have 20 RP per turn?

[irdeggman]

Also another point this brings up. Say I have a domain that could net me 40 RP, but I only have a bloodline that will allow me to collect 20. Say I owe Gavin Tael 9 RP a turn for him to go around me instead of through me on his path to the Iron Throne. Would I collect what my bloodline allows, and then pay him, leaving me only 11 RP per turn, OR would I Collect my maximum from the land, Pay my vassalage, and then since I am in excess of what I am allowed to collect because of my bloodline loose the excess and only have 20 RP per turn?

Now in this case both sets of rules are pretty consistent - you can't transfer what you can't get. That is to say if your holdings would give you more RP than your your bloodline str would allow you to gain it is simply wasted RP. That is when you set up vassals to handle these holdings so that they are not wasted.

That is your first choice is the proper one.

You get 20 RP then pay 9 leaving you 11 RP to work with.

[geeman]

At 02:09 PM 11/22/2005 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>There is a maximum to the amount of regency that a character can collect
>per domain turn. A scion can earn no more than twice their current
>bloodline ability score in domain regency collections per domain turn.
>
>Which based on changes to Chap 2 would correspond to a max RP collectoin
>(from all sources) equal to the regent`s blood line score.
>
>Hmm since this chapter hasn`t been revised yet there are definitely 2 ways
>to go. One is to match the playtest which effectively limited regents,
>like Avan, from what they had been able to get in 2nd ed.
>
>Interesting how this issue hasn`t popped up before.
>
>Or change it to match what I had posted above.
>
>Feedback anyone?
>
>Personal opinion - limiting the RP coming in shouldn`t have as much of a
>neutering effect as people seem to think it may. It may even serve to more
>even things out game mechanic-wise. Remember that the playtest also had a
>much less reliance on RP to perfrom domain actions - i.e., most only
>requied GB in order to perform at all, while RP increased/decreased
>likelihood of success.

This is one of those things that`ll probably only rarely show up in
anyone`s campaign. There`s a distinct possibility that it could happen,
but only when a regent has a low bloodline score to begin with does it seem
like something that`d be very likely. That said, I don`t think there
should be an upper cap on RP collection for several reasons:

1. I suspect the text regarding that cap might be something that wasn`t
changed from the earlier playtest when bloodline was made an ability score
and that ability score was then doubled to equate it to bloodline
score. To keep with the original RP collection from provinces and holdings
per the original rules the cap would be that bloodline as ability score x2.

2. As I noted in the previous post capping RP collection from ALL sources
does create a rather weird snaggle when it comes to the backstory of the
campaign setting. How did any of that stuff occur using the bloodline
system as presented? It`s always a peeve when game mechanics of campaign
setting contradict campaign material.

3. It does seem to be more of a problem for regents with low bloodline
strength scores than for ones with higher bloodlines. That might not
actually be a "problem" given that those with lower bloodlines already are
"penalized" in a sense, but one should be aware of how it`ll take effect,
and question whether one wants a character who has managed to forge
together a domain that generates RP in such a dramatic capacity should run
into a wall based upon his bloodline score.

4. Certain campaign styles based on diplomacy and forging massive alliances
would be hampered by such a rule. Since those are my favored types of
campaign styles I find that a bit problematic.

When it boils down to it, a cap would force a regent to spend RP on his
bloodline or engage in other activities that will raise his score, and I
think that`s good thing since it provides a nice campaign basis for certain
adventuring activities and something to do with lots of RP. On the whole,
however, it`s not clear to me that this particular cap is the best route to
that goal. Something more along the lines of the orginal ruling (cap RP
collection from _personal_ provinces/holdings at bloodline score while
placing no restriction on RP collection from all other sources) would
probably encourage those types of play while still putting some sort of
limit on the system.

Gary

[Osprey]

I don't have the BRCS in front of me to reference, so I'm going from memory.

What I recall, however, was that the order of collections was key to determining RP collection limits. I think it went like this (in 2nd ed and BRCS):

1. Collections - collect RP and GB from holdings and trade routes.
2. Maintenance - pay necessary GB in seasonal maintenance for assets (structures, troops, ships, etc. - also holdings in 2e).
3. Vassalage - Pay and/or collect any RP/GB from tribute and vassalage agreements.

My understanding had always been that a bloodline's RP collection limit applied specifically to Step 1: Collections, and that RP from vassalage was a seperate issue entirely.

I agree with Gary in that bigger overall RP income seems to be a vital aspect of what it means to be a feudal overlord, and most especially Emperor. Having run a BR campaign where 1 empire was created (in Aduria) and a second one is in the making (in Anuire), I can vouch for the fact that extra RP from vassalage makes a tremendous difference in overall levels of power.

The 1 RP to perform domain actions from 2e vs. the 1 GB in the BRCS really isn't all that significant except at the lower levels of play (when every last RP or GB counts). At higher levels, where feudal pyramids become more prevalent, vassalage means a lot, because it gives the liege regent the ability to:
1. Consistently raise his or her bloodline on a regular basis (2x per year in the current rules).
2. Outbid and overpower any lesser regent in a 1-on-1 RP war (such as in a Contest action, or when blocking someone else's Create/Rule Holding action).

Playing with the BRCS rules, my experience was that once realms had their holdings ruled up to maximum potential (holding levels = province levels), RP mostly sat around waiting to boost a regent's bloodline. But when a Contest action went down, suddenly it was all about who had the biggest RP reserve - and liege lords with large total RP collections could count on having a big regency reserve every single season. And that is what makes guys like Avan and Boeruine so consistently formidable. Even if they just raised their bloodline at the end of last season - WHAM! - another 90+ RP this season!

In the BRCS, with the RP reserve limit rules in place, what this tends to do is force the big guys to find somewhere to spend some of their RP each season - quite a lot of it with the latest version of the Ch 2 rules (which has the lowest RP reserve limit of any of the 3 editions - 2e, 3e, and now 3.5).
Which means Avan and Boeruine will probably be a constant nuisance to at least one of their neighbors on a regular basis. Hurray! :rolleyes:

[geeman]

At 04:13 AM 11/23/2005 +0100, Osprey wrote:

>Having run a BR campaign where 1 empire was created (in Aduria) and a
>second one is in the making (in Anuire), I can vouch for the fact that
>extra RP from vassalage makes a tremendous difference in overall levels of
>power.

I`m just going to comment that this "Aduria Empire" campaign sounds cooler
than cryogenicly preserved penguin teats.

Gary

[irdeggman]

I don't have the BRCS in front of me to reference, so I'm going from memory.

What I recall, however, was that the order of collections was key to determining RP collection limits. I think it went like this (in 2nd ed and BRCS):

1. Collections - collect RP and GB from holdings and trade routes.
2. Maintenance - pay necessary GB in seasonal maintenance for assets (structures, troops, ships, etc. - also holdings in 2e).
3. Vassalage - Pay and/or collect any RP/GB from tribute and vassalage agreements.

My understanding had always been that a bloodline's RP collection limit applied specifically to Step 1: Collections, and that RP from vassalage was a seperate issue entirely.



Actually from the BRCS-playtest, pgs 96-97.



First section talks about holdings.



Second section talks about other sources, such as vassalage.




A scion can also gain regency from a vassalage agreement bound by a ceremony of investiture. During the casting of the investiture realm spell, the vassal regent pledges to supply a fixed seasonal amount of RP to their liege. The book-keeping for the RP collected by the liege lord is performed during collections



Last paragraph says:




There is a maximum to the amount of regency that a character can collect per domain turn. A scion can earn no more than twice their current bloodline ability score in domain regency collections per domain turn. There is also limit to the amount of regency that a character can store. Any RP gained above the character's maximum regency reserve is lost immediately. A character's maximum RP reserve is equal to five times their bloodline score (see Table 2-3: Bloodline ability score).





So the way to read it to the interpretation you had was via the use of the word “collections” and comparing that to the “Collections” in the Regency Collection Table. Could be done, but is a stretch IMO, especially since the section talking bout gaining regency from vassals occurring during the “collections”.







I agree with Gary in that bigger overall RP income seems to be a vital aspect of what it means to be a feudal overlord, and most especially Emperor. Having run a BR campaign where 1 empire was created (in Aduria) and a second one is in the making (in Anuire), I can vouch for the fact that extra RP from vassalage makes a tremendous difference in overall levels of power.





Good point. But another way to look at is to be a war of prevention. That is the feudal lord is preventing others from getting RP to use against him by denying them access to it. He will always, unless he has a lower bloodline score (in which case he has a tenuous grasp on being a feudal lord in the first place), have a larger RP pool to use than his vassals.






In the BRCS, with the RP reserve limit rules in place, what this tends to do is force the big guys to find somewhere to spend some of their RP each season - quite a lot of it with the latest version of the Ch 2 rules (which has the lowest RP reserve limit of any of the 3 editions - 2e, 3e, and now 3.5).
Which means Avan and Boeruine will probably be a constant nuisance to at least one of their neighbors on a regular basis. Hurray!





Or to each other. There is always agititation.







The more I hear the more I think that the “rules” should be:



Max RP collection from holdings should be bloodline score.


The max a regent can have at any given time is equal to his reserve (2x bloodline score). This includes gains from vassals and usurpation.



This still gives a large advantage to regents with high blood scores, which is pretty much who we are talking about in the first place and gives a great incentive for regents to find ways to increase their blood score and thus become “better” stewards (i.e., regents).



Probably should have some method of handling “temporary” gains via realm magic or artifacts and the like. With these handled similarly to temporary hit points.



Let’s give this discussion a little more time to get the general “feel” and them maybe a poll for quantification/confirmation.

[ausrick]

Gavin Tael, Regent of Ghoere, according to the RoE has a bloodline of 49 Major. He can collect 49RP per turn, However, when I take his holdings from RoE (Provinces and most of the law of Ghoere, some Law in Mhoried) I come up with a possible 74 RP per turn using the BRCS and sanctioned chapters. In the Domain Secrets of Ghoere (I think it was written by a player though) It says that Ghorien Hiriele pays him vassalage, also it has been my understanding that Gavin probably has other people giving him RP as well, and that that would be desireable.

This is just one situation where following the book leads to a regent who's Domain is a lot bigger than his bloodline. IMO The only reason Gavin would have Hiriele give him RP is so that he would make more RP for himself (Thus vassalage goes ontop of holdings) and hopefully with making Phat RP income be able to administrate his domain AND Raise his bloodline score once or twice per year. The other option I've been presented with was someone had told me "Maybe he just sits on it to make his vassals burn it and thus have more control over them" But the secrets book made this sound unlikely by stateing that Hiriele pretty much had to go beg Gavin to give him RP to do whatever it was he wanted to do. That is effective vassal control but would be so wasteful and tax Gavin's RP reserves so much it wouldn't be economical at all to have to support his puppet gilder out of his 49 RP.

I was definitely under the understanding though, that not even vassalage would break your RP Reserve cap. That would make it so that you could wrack up RP potentially a lot faster than you would be able to convert it to bloodline, I would think you would have RP overload, or burn or something, maybe just plain explode with divine energy.

Just my thoughts, observations, and what I have found.

[Osprey]

Well, Ausrick, what you've written is in agreeance with what Irdeggman wrote, which is pretty much in agreeance with what Geeman and I have written.

Geez, it isn't often that everyone posting is more or less in agreeance. Kinda' cool. :)

Duane, let the discussion roll a bit more, but if there aren't any objections to the proposed system (vassalage AFTER collections, max RP limit always applies), then I'd suggest we just skip the poll. if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?

[Osprey]

I`m just going to comment that this "Aduria Empire" campaign sounds cooler
than cryogenicly preserved penguin teats.

Gary

Heh heh.

Previously I had written a fair amount about this campaign on the forums here, especially in the Atlas threads that Ian had started about Aduria. It was mostly a long-distance solo campaign with my friend, though it paralleled my ongoing Anuirean campaign. Here's a link to the website, which my friend (Tchar Azazel here on the forums) did a lot with and I helped with here and there: The Mieres Empire (http://home.earthlink.net/~blaede/index.html)

In short, Blaede Mieres, the landed regent of Mieres (IMC a Duke with a Great bloodline of Masela) and his twin sister Jetana (High Priestess of the Southern Temple of Neserie) sailed on a shipboard expedition south to the eastern coast of Aduria as a sort of "coming of age" initiation voyage - a long-standing tradition of the Mieres family. Each Mieres scion was expected to take a major voyage of exploration before they were considered worthy of inheritance and adulthood.

Anyways, they explored, survived, and returned to Mieres, survived an attack by pirates (sent by our favorite Mieres villain, Aaron Vaumel, who had usurped the throne while they were away), took back their inheritance, and set about strengthening Mieres. Vaumel ended up sleeping with the fishes.

Eventually, their power in Mieres consolidated and a strong Naval Academy established in Ghaele (the capital), they began to build a powerful fleet and army with the intention of invading the Adurian coast and "cleansing the evil and corruption they had found there." So began the Mieres Crusade, in which troops and fleets attacked and subdued most of the Eastern Adurian city-states, one by one (with the exception of a few "salvagable" states won over by Jetana's diplomatic efforts - these were 1st allies, and later integrated into the Mieres Empire).

It keeps going, but eventually a combination of war and diplomacy won the Mieres regents some 50+ provinces. I actually invented an epic-scale domain action called "Create Empire" especially for this occasion - with a base DC of something like (1000-total province levels), requiring hundreds of RP and GB to be successful (which means no one regent could accomplish it singlehandedly - all vassals and regents of the would-be Empire contributed RP and/or GB to the effort). It was pretty cool.

The Mieres Empire was officially inaugurated on New Year's Day of 564 MR - about 13-1/2 years after the start date of the campaign (Summer 551 MR). Not too shabby.

That's about all I'm gonna write here, as this is the BRCS forum, but yeah - it was pretty cool, and I had a whole lot of fun inventing the landscape of Aduria (mostly from scratch, with some vague inspiration from Ian's map and the few Adurian references in the 2e Atlas).

Osprey

[Question]

So.....basically.....who thinks that RP form vassals should NOT be considered under the bloodline strength limit?

[asoe]

So.....basically.....who thinks that RP form vassals should NOT be considered under the bloodline strength limit?

I don't. An yeah, I haven't participated in the discussion till now, but that's mainly due to my relatively insignificant knowledge of Birthright and the game mechanics.

[Question]

I cant find the investiture action under ceremony?Coronation doesnt fit if youa re not the temporary ruler at all.Neither does divestiture as the province is unclaimed.

[Question]

Rule province : Can GB be spent to support this?Also can it be opposed by other regents,and what are the rules regarding it?

Seaports : They basically allow ships to dock, and sea trade routes to be created?They do not generate any income on their own?So to actually get gold from a seaport you need a trade route with the appropriate guilds?

Espionage : No RP/GB may be spent to increase chances of this suceeding or to oppose it,correct?Isnt that kind of...difficult?For example a espionage action to check troops in a province only has a flat 50% chance of suceeding and nothing you can do except use guild holdings helps?

[irdeggman]

Rule province : Can GB be spent to support this?Also can it be opposed by other regents,and what are the rules regarding it?

No it cannot be oppsoed or supported by other regents and no GB can be used to modify the action. The only times that GB can be used to modify an action is when it is specifically called out like for Diplomacy.

The rules in the BRCS are actually pretty clear on ruling a province. Ian (Rasene Andu) had posted some alternate rules for ruling a province in order to make it more difficult since it is pretty easy to perform per the BRCS. The performing regent can always use RP to modify his success.


Rule Province [Standard; Administrate; 1 GB per current level of target province]

Province level represents the relative level of organization in a province. Most provinces have large numbers of citizens that exist, to a great extent, on their own; neither enjoying the benefits of civilization nor paying its price (increased taxes, feudal duties, and other obligations). By ruling a province, a regent attempts to increase their level of control over the populace. This growth can be due to reforms in your domain to sponsor growth or expansion, by opening up new areas to agriculture, or by sponsoring trade and industry; but the net effect is an increase in your province level.

The base DC for the domain action is 10 + the current level of your province. Unlike most standard actions, no holding levels can be applied to support or oppose this action and RP cannot be spent to support or oppose the action. A court can only take this action once per domain turn. Regardless of whether this action fails or succeeds, an additional attempt to Rule Province (even a different province) in the same domain turn automatically fails.



Seaports : They basically allow ships to dock, and sea trade routes to be created?They do not generate any income on their own?So to actually get gold from a seaport you need a trade route with the appropriate guilds?

Correct in order to have a sea trade route there must be a sea port. Now this section in the BRCS will be revised to match the rules from the Cities in the Sun (2nd ed) which had that there can be an equal number of sea trade routes as land trade routes. The BRCS was written to match the BRRB rules but not the updated trade route rules from the Cities of the Sun. Essentially having a sea port allows a guild to double its available trade routes - hence the cost for the port.


Espionage : No RP/GB may be spent to increase chances of this suceeding or to oppose it,correct?Isnt that kind of...difficult?For example a espionage action to check troops in a province only has a flat 50% chance of suceeding and nothing you can do except use guild holdings helps?

Only for "hiding" information.



This action can also be used to hide information that would normally be visible to other regents in the province (such as the existence of a holding). The base DC for hiding information is 20. Unlike standard domain actions, regency cannot be spent to increase or decrease the chance of success; the active regent can’t spend regency to hide information without guaranteeing failure and the other regents in the area are unaware of the action. Only guild holdings provide a bonus to the check; other types of holdings are not as well geared for clandestine operation. The check receives a penalty equal to the number of law holdings in the province, unless the active regent holds the law holdings. If successful, the hidden information can only be revealed through as the target of an Espionage action (or perhaps through an Adventure action). Canny regents should perform Espionage actions in their own provinces on an irregular basis as a form of active counter-espionage.

Note the text in the begining describing teh Espionage action in general - specifically in regards to finding information.


The primary use of this action is to gather information about a specific target province. The success level determines the completeness of the information revealed. Table 5-17 provides examples of potential information revealed. At the DMs option, all regency bidding in an Espionage action is done via silent auction.

[Question]

RP cannot be spent to support or oppose the action

I thought that mean you cant use RP to increase your chances of ruling province?