Gods of Aebrynis

[Green Knight]

Hi,

Another old topic that has become relevant again, in relation to my Aerbynis map/atlas. This thime I'm not as interesting in debating the issue, but rather more interested in input and comments.

B

[Green Knight]

Hi,

THE 7 GODS OF OLD
I'll start by assuming that the humans of Aduria and Djapar (Basarji part at least) worhsiped/knew of 7 major gods.

Anduiras (LG) - God of War and Rulership
Basaïa (LN) - Goddess of the Sun and Knowledge
Brenna (CN) - Godess of Fortune and Luck
Masela (NG) - Goddess of the Seas
Reynir (N) - God of the Wild
Vorynn (CG) - God of Magic and the Moon

Azrai (NE) - God of Shadows and Evil (may well have had other titles and portfolios earlier on, but by the time we're looking at, he's "just" the evil one).

We do know that each culture held each held on god in particular esteem, but all the gods were part of the same pantheon and thus known to all cultures. I also think its safe to assume that the gods had different names and their worship has particular characteristics, depending on what culture worhshipped them. We see this in modern Cerilia as well.

B

[graham anderson]

the gods, there is the 7 old human ones, the dwarven pantheon ( i think they had 9 but would have to check the books),

I have lots of other gods being created at daesmar, the goblin gods , gnolls , giant etc, like the elves I have them being godless before daesmar and azrai, this is where a lot of azrai's power went as his two human successor gods arn't very powerful.

I also have there being other gods, those who didn't take part in daesmar for one reason or another like the dwarf gods, and those created sinse, some of the anshe can grant spells and they could be considered gods as well as being worshipped as one. Some gods may have been created at daesmar that never got a following in cerilia and can be found elsewhere.

[graham anderson]

I also don't see azrai as the personification of evil that others do (i dont like the evil god thing), I use a slight variation for him as well not that people would know this in game usualy but here you go. Azrai had an ancient greavance against the other gods and their people, the one I use being the destruction or near destruction of his people (human racial group). A lot of his powers and the powers effects of his followers and those with his bloodline come from a connection to the seeming, people believe his blood is cursed so it is cursed sort of thing. that is also why they cannot control their transformation (awnshe)when they use their powers it conects them to the seeming and changes them to the seeming's view of them.

just my pet way of using azrai.

[Green Knight]

When the 7 gods died at Deismaar, at least 8 new gods ascended in their place.

One each for the gods of light, and two for the Shadow. Later the pantheon increased to 11, as Cuiraécen, Eloéle, and Laerme came into being. Were they also created at Deismaar and only came into power later, or did they come into being later on? If so, are they truly the children of the gods, or were they mortals who ascended to godhood (or perhaps both, if events in heaven and on Earth reflects one another)?

B

[Raesene Andu]

If you follow the information from the Book of Priestcraft then they are indeed the children of the gods. According to that book, Laerme was born in the 2nd century after Deismaar, Cuiraecen in the 3rd, and Eloele somewhere around the same time. As the new gods were originally mortals it only makes sense that they would want children, while for the old gods, humanity were their children.

There is no reason why new gods cannot be introduced on other continents, I just wouldn't introduces that many. For my Adurian expansion I introduced 4 new gods who took no part at Deismaar. In any new continent there would be the possibility of other new gods, specifically gods worshipped by non-human races.

[Green Knight]

The continued existence of the Old Gods is another favourite theme for me.

What if the gods didn't really die at Deismaar - they were instead severely weakened, their essences scattered and their potfolios claimed by the newly ascended gods.

We already more or less know that the Cold Rider is indeed an incarnation of Azrai (at least according to Rich's Lost Files), which makes me believe that the other gods may still be around in one form or another.

The way I've used the old gods IMC, is that they slowly reformed over the course of several centuires. That which is divine can't truly died, so they slowly reformed over time, thanks in part to the countinued worship in the "Old Lands" (we know that the Basarji of Djapar worhsip Basaïa to this day, and even deny Avani's existence, maybe they are right...). This I propose is what happened with the other gods as well.

Indeed, I never saw the new gods as being very active outside Cerilia (perhaps with the exception og missionaries following Anuirean colonization attempts in Aduria). I cannot accept that the rest of Aebrynis continued worshiping dead gods, so there must be more to the story here.

Since their champions had already taken away part of their portfolios, the re-animated gods eventually ended up with potfolios now identical to their old ones. I have also played them as very embittered at the young gods for "stealing" their place and power.

Example:
Anuiras (LE); Intemediate God; the Warlord, the Undying Lord; warfare, tradition, and obedience.
Basaïa (NE), Intermediate Goddess; the Bleak Sun, the Unforgiving; Vengeance, hate, deserts,
Masela (CE); Lesser Goddess; The Bitch Queen, the Drowned Goddess, Mistress of the Deep; the deeps, sea monsters, bad weather, drowning

etc.

B

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Jan 11 2005, 12:42 PM
If you follow the information from the Book of Priestcraft then they are indeed the children of the gods. According to that book, Laerme was born in the 2nd century after Deismaar, Cuiraecen in the 3rd, and Eloele somewhere around the same time. As the new gods were originally mortals it only makes sense that they would want children, while for the old gods, humanity were their children.
I do follow the BoP in this, but I like to explore the connection between the Earth and Heaven. Since the 8 other gods were mortals once (and as you say would want children etc.), could not the events mirror one another.

Perhaps Cuiraécen was really a great champion of Haelyn, a fierce and indomitable chap who braved any weather to cross the sea of Cerilia to spread the light of the Allfather...eventually ascending and becomming a god, the son of Haelyn and Nesirie.

B

[RaspK_FOG]

I cannot see the champion of one deity, however gracious to another, rising to godhood doubly patroned; rather, a non-aligned person who follows the tenets of two faiths might be so, though still...

In any case, I prefer the BoP way of handling things (it gives a more mythical feel to the setting).

Finally, the reason 2 deities arose from Azrai's power is pretty obvious: if you are the sole evil deity and were a match for 6 other deities, of course you are very powerful and thus have a stronger "essence". Don't forget that the Gorgon got a huge bloodline at the same time!

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jan 11 2005, 01:38 PM
Finally, the reason 2 deities arose from Azrai's power is pretty obvious: if you are the sole evil deity and were a match for 6 other deities, of course you are very powerful and thus have a stronger "essence". Don't forget that the Gorgon got a huge bloodline at the same time!
Yeah, and given the number of very powerful awnsheghlien, the cold rider etc that got created, it's no wonder why those 2 gods are actually pretty weak when compared to their 9 opponents...

[geeman]

Green Knight writes:



> Perhaps Cuiraécen was really a great champion of Haelyn, a fierce

> and indomitable chap who braved any weather to cross the sea of

> Cerilia to spread the light of the Allfather...eventually ascending

> and becomming a god, the son of Haelyn and Nesirie.



I like the idea that Cuiraécen is an ascended mortal. If that`s the case he

may originate on some other continent of Aebrynis, and his true origin is

simply unknown to any Cerilians who simply describe him in terms more in

keeping with their understanding of the nature of the gods.



Cuiraécen`s ascension and description as the "son" of Haelyn and Nesirie

could be more figurative than literal. After all, the gods don`t need to

have a biology in the same way that mortals would. The process of elevating

a human to godly status might have involved the combined efforts of those

two "parents" whose respective contribution makes that former human warrior

their "son" in the divine sense.



If one views Cuiraécen in this light it probably makes more sense that his

original mortal form is not a Cerilian because if he were his ascension

would probably have inspired a whole set of myths and legends. Besides, it

would definitely have attracted the attention of the Gorgon, the Magian, and

a few of the other awnsheghlien who seem to have ascension as a goal or who

are at least attentive to the process.



Gary

[Osprey]

QUOTE (RaspK_FOG @ Jan 11 2005, 01:38 PM)
Finally, the reason 2 deities arose from Azrai's power is pretty obvious: if you are the sole evil deity and were a match for 6 other deities, of course you are very powerful and thus have a stronger "essence". Don't forget that the Gorgon got a huge bloodline at the same time!


Yeah, and given the number of very powerful awnsheghlien, the cold rider etc that got created, it's no wonder why those 2 gods are actually pretty weak when compared to their 9 opponents...

I also always figured that a great deal of Azrai's essence blasted directly into the land and Shadow World, not just into mortals at Deismaar. This is the seed of blight planted that continues to spread like a plague 1500 years later.

[Osprey]

Bjorn,
I think your ideas concerning the old gods (weakened and bitter, but still hangin' around) are interesting. IMO, though, when the gods died, people would know it. Why? Because all of their clerics would suddenly be "cut off" from their sources of divine power. In the D&D world, this isn't some subtle question of faith and doubt, it's a blatant effect. The village priest can't perform miracles anymore. Nor can the one in the next village, or at the big temple in town, etc. In D&D, people don't need the kind of human faith that humans do IRL - they have priests performing divine magic as proof of their connection to a deity or divine power of some sort (in BR, this is always a deity's power). If Earth had such regular performances, faith would be a lot less sticky, and religions would be much more powerful (if you can imagine that).


I've always viewed the entire Cerilian pantheon, as described in the original BR material, as a scholarly/canonical view created mainly during the Anuirean Empire era. So I assume that all of it is very Cerilian-centered - as far as most Cerilian humans are concerned, their gods are the only human gods.

I think it's important as a world designer to step back from that limited and biased perspective and use your "gods-eye." Each of the old gods had one tribe of Adurian humans to whom they were a patron deity. One tribe per diety sounds very much to me like the "barbarians" of ancient Europe, while Azrai seems more like a monotheistic deity, his Adurian Empire similar to Constantine's Rome. I can't help but compare Azrai to the Old Testament Judeo-Chrisitian god, who encourages his people to systematically suppress and eventually destroy any rival gods of neighboring lands when his people are strong enough to do so. Poor Baal gets struck down quite a lot... :lol:

Realistically, if there are other humans on Aebrynis who didn't come from Aduria, it's almost certain that they would have their own patron gods and/or pantheons. While it's more work to make these deities, ultimately a campaign on a different continent will feel far more distinct and flavorful if the deities are equally distinct, rather than being variants of Cerilian deities.

Aduria is an interesting case, since the Cerilian deities and their people came from here, and the Anuirean Empire came back to colonize the northern shores centuries after Deismaar. Here we have a good argument for the Cerilian deities exisiting in some form or another - although Kreisha and Belinik are so blatantly Vos that they'd need a LOT of tweaking to fit into any of my concepts of Aduria.

Perhaps there were other deific successors to Azrai, Adurian gods unknown to Cerilians. I envision Azrai's contentious nature making him fracture and splinter into shards more than the other gods - no mortal successor could ever hold so much conflicting energy in one being, and so Azrai's successors would be more numerous and seperate than the other new gods.

Some food for thought.

Osprey

[Green Knight]

This is great stuff people!

I already like the Homebrew Forum...and it has a cool name too!

B

[graham anderson]

I like the fact that gods can die, In one game i ran a powerfull wizard was trying to bring about azrai's ressurection and the party were unwitting dupes in bringing it about. I may go back to running it, but they were becoming suspicious and would likely eventualy try and stop the ressurection.

As for djaper that likely came about shortly after daesmar when the faiths were in chaos and the new and old priests were struggeling for power. In cerilia the new faith won out but in djaper the old priesthood won out. Maybe they now practice lesser magic to keep control of the priesthoods power claiming it is the gift of their god.

[irdeggman]

I prefer to think of Azrai as the lord of Chaos and Deception. This chaos includes change since change is from inconsistency and turmoil, it is also a pretty good fit with info on Azrai creating many things presented in Blood Spawn. Since change makes people uneasy he got associated with evil, although he has a wicked tendency - hey some one has to be the big bad evil.

[Green Knight]

Hi,

When contemplating how many gods etc. I thought it would also be useful to share some ideas about the origins of the gods and how they interact with the world. This also touches in on such matters as creation myths and such, but since eveything sort of influences the other, I find it appropriate for this thread.

These are just some quick thoughts from the top of my head:

At some point the world was created. Doesn't really matter how; from nothingness, chaos, from the left leg of a really big bird or whatever. The earth - Aebrynis - was created, the sky was created, and if you like the underworld was created.

In the beginning (before the sundering), the world was a very different place, where mortals and spirits interacted more freely. I envision a world without any really powerful gods residing in extraplanar realms, but a set of spirits of varying power residing in the physical world.

Eventually some of the more powerful spirits came to be worshipped, and found that worship was desirable, for it gave them power and purpose. Eventually these powerful beings, which were very closely linked to the world and the elements, were able to transcend and create extraplanar aboves (the Inner Planes).

They were still not true gods in the "modern" sense, but rather powerful elemental lords. I see their worship as very druidish. Spirits continued to be imporant and profilic.

The can the Sundering, which forced a division between the spirit world and the "real" world. Note that the spirit worls is not the SW of today, this was long before it got corrupted. This meant that spirits and mortals got separated from each other, and their days of free interaction was over.

Well, have to eat now. More later.

B

[Raesene Andu]

When contemplating how many gods etc. I thought it would also be useful to share some ideas about the origins of the gods and how they interact with the world. This also touches in on such matters as creation myths and such, but since eveything sort of influences the other, I find it appropriate for this thread.

The official view on this matter can be found in the Blood Spawn suppliment. It reads...

The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods. But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone of the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity—as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis—owe their existence to him.

The elements of permanence and transience—light and shadow—warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants. The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.

[Green Knight]

Yes, I've already read that part several times, and its a good starting point.

However, I'd like to flesh it out more. Partially because I want to see how the different parts of Aebrynis developed their gods and such. If Djapar is radically different from Cerilia, I want to know why.

B

[Raesene Andu]

I think as far as the standard gods (those worshipped in Aduria and Cerilia) go, they were around before humanity, back in the time when monsters ruled Aebrynis.

The novel Greatheat talks about how Azrai created the beast-men, so I'd assume that humanity and the other races came about much the same way. The elves seem to be the main exception to this rule, having appeared in much the same way as the gods themselves.

[Green Knight]

I'm thinking about maybe adding 2 or 3 three "creator god" who reputedly were responsible for the creation of the world. These are über-deities that aren't really worshipped as gods.

I do seem to remember that you had a similar idea? Didn't I read somewhere that one of the "new" gods you came up with for Empires of Blood was called Aebrynis and was literally the earth itself?

B

[Osprey]

If there is a single earth god Aebrynis, I'd elect to give it a feminine gender, more like an Earth Mother that births creation. Being the folklore buff that I am. :P

[Green Knight]

The Earth mother Aebrynis and the Sky Father.....sibling gods who consorted to create heaven and earth. And perhaps a third sibling that got angry at having been left out and created the deep dark underworld of Aebrynis.

Something like that perhaps...

B

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Green Knight@Jan 12 2005, 10:41 PM
I do seem to remember that you had a similar idea? Didn't I read somewhere that one of the "new" gods you came up with for Empires of Blood was called Aebrynis and was literally the earth itself?
Yes I did. The information can be found at http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=87

[Green Knight]

Ok,

We now have a couple/trio of creator gods, and a period where spirits small and large roam freely i the world. Then the world is divided into two part, the real world and the spirit world, and most of the spirits can no longer interact so directly with the mundane races.

Now enter the first real gods. Maybe they are just powerful spirits that find that worship gives them a specail kind of power/purpose or maybe they are just new entities altogether. Perhaps the split between worlds somehow made tis new type of being possible...

I'm thinking there were a great variety of gods at first, most local god and gods with small potfolios. As time went by, 7 major gods emerged to stand above the rest. They became universally known throughout the world, unlike their lesser brethren (except in areas where other, special pantheons held sway, like the Kami of BOA).

Then came Deismaar, and the destruction of the old gods and the rise of the new gods.

B

[Osprey]

I'm thinking there were a great variety of gods at first, most local god and gods with small potfolios. As time went by, 7 major gods emerged to stand above the rest. They became universally known throughout the world, unlike their lesser brethren (except in areas where other, special pantheons held sway, like the Kami of BOA).

Why would they? I'm not at all convinced the Cerilian 7 are or should be universal gods that can fit any culture with a little tweaking.

My advice to you is to follow a pattern similar to most world design schemes: create the peoples and cultures of the world first, then decide what deities they worship. Making the Cerilian deities apply to nearly all cultures seems like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. No offense, but it seems a bit...lazy? The Cerilian deities were custom-designed for the Cerilian humans, even to the extent of each one having a patron tribe/race! How exactly would they be appropriate for a race far across the ocean that never even had any contact with Cerilia?!

I think the Cerilian deities should hold sway in Cerilia, and maybe have some worshippers in Aduria - and that's about it. Perhaps you're afraid they won't seem as powerful as you have always conceived them to be? Well, maybe that is the big-picture reality - maybe the Cerilian gods are small fish in a big ocean, at least from the cosmological viewpoint. What's wrong with that? When designing Aebrynis as a whole, I think it's important to let go of the bias that Cerilia and Deismar should be the center of the world. Most every culture believes that they are at or near the center of the world, and usually have elaborate religions, mythologies, and other cultural mechanisms to reinforce that belief. It is the signature of ambitious men throughout history.

I think that given the nature of Aebrynis and the Shadow World, it might be quite reasonable to assume that ALL deities in Aebrynis have rather local powers, relative to their worshippers and portfolios.

Now: Basaia would likely have had more worshippers back home, so a version of Avani might still be worshipped by the Bayyids (if you use that idea). But otherwise...these are very Western-type deities, wouldn't you say? Hardly easy to fit into a fantasy version of China or India or southeast Asia...totally different cultures, totally different worldviews, totally different cosmologies.

The only constant I would keep in deities is the things that tend to be universal IRL: an Earth Mother and Sky Father progenitor pair seems OK. I also think that Azrai should be the 3rd ancient deity - this would handily account for his immense power relative to the others. Chaos and Darkness are 2 of the most primal portfolio elements, highly appropriate for an elder deity...

The Shadow World splits...this is also a good universal theme. It is a common them to most animistic practices IRL, very appropriate here too.

How are the other gods made? Mmm, this is where things get fuzzy for me. I wouldn't be too hasty in deciding all the particulars here - there may be some good ideas out there concerning the genesis of the Cerilian deities. I like the idea of animism evolving into polytheism, where certain spirits gain power and worship and are raised to the level of gods. I just think each culture or race that evolves seperately would develop seperate pantheons and patron deities - otherwise we're taking earth-based cultures and trying to erase a massive, entangled chunk of their cultural evolution (their religion) and replace it with a clumsy substitute (Cerilian deities). Some isolated cultures never "evolve" into polytheism at all, and remain animistic, which is also cool setting materials (ex., Native Americans and most other people who maintained a tribal way of life).

Examples of other pantheons that are worth keeping in some form:
- The Celestial Beauracracy of imperial China, a rich assortment of deities and spirits all fitting neatly into a perfectly-ordered hierarchy.
- The Hindu pantheon, also highly stratified in a mirror of the caste system. These include deities like Vishnu, Shiba, Bali, etc.
- The Egyptian pantheon might fit in nicely somewhere in eastern Djapar.
- The Aztec deities would do nicely somewhere in Aduria or Thaele.

In other words, I think the Cerilian deities are fine as replacements for the European mythologies (Norse and Greco-Roman seem to be the 2 "displaced" pantheons that could have fit in Cerilia but were supplanted by original ones), but don't do so well replacing the deities of more diverse cultures.

[geeman]

At 06:33 PM 1/13/2005 +0100, Osprey wrote:



>I think the Cerilian deities are fine as replacements for the European

>mythologies (Norse and Greco-Roman seem to be the 2 "displaced" pantheons

>that could have fit in Cerilia but were supplanted by original ones), but

>don`t do so well replacing the deities of more diverse cultures.



The Cerilian gods don`t require a whole lot of revision in order to employ

them in an OA version of the BR setting. The gods are as written are

geared towards redefinition since they are already applied to five

different human cultures, two of which have Asian/Eastern themes. Since

those human cultures are all immigrants, and arrived upon Cerilia from

locations that were pretty far flung and apparently already worshipped

their respective patrons for some time, it seems logical that at least the

gods known to the Vos and the Khinasi/Basarji would be known in their

original continents. The migration of humanity to Cerilia was relatively

fast, so the diffusion of the gods from one place to another can happen

quite quickly.



The Cerilian gods are generic enough to apply to any setting. Any pantheon

can do with a sky god, a goddess of the night, a god who tosses lightning

bolts. The Chinese god Lei Gong is very much like the Norse god Thor who

is, in turn, very similar to Cuiracaen, and the three can be easily

interpreted as being one aspect of the other as portrayed in different

cultures. The same could be said for just about any of the other Cerilian

gods.



The only one that was a bit of a problem with I did a BR-OA campaign was

Kriesha, and that`s because her portfolio (unlike the other gods) is

relatively narrow. If one emphasizes her witchy aspect even she works just

fine.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Osprey schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=2923

>

> Osprey wrote:

>Examples of other pantheons that are worth keeping in some form:

>- The Celestial Beauracracy of imperial China, a rich assortment of deities and spirits all fitting neatly into a perfectly-ordered hierarchy.

>- The Hindu pantheon, also highly stratified in a mirror of the caste system. These include deities like Vishnu, Shiba, Bali, etc.

>

Mmmh, not rather Kali than Bali?

bye

Michael

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:



> ...

> The only one that was a bit of a problem with I did a BR-OA campaign was

> Kriesha, and that`s because her portfolio (unlike the other gods) is

> relatively narrow. If one emphasizes her witchy aspect even she works

> just

> fine.



To me she appears like Hel or Hekate ;-)

bye

Michael

[geeman]

At 09:12 PM 1/13/2005 +0100, Michael wrote:



>>The only one that was a bit of a problem with I did a BR-OA campaign was

>>Kriesha, and that`s because her portfolio (unlike the other gods) is

>>relatively narrow. If one emphasizes her witchy aspect even she works

>>just fine.

>

>To me she appears like Hel or Hekate ;-)



Those work. One could also go with a bit of a perverse nature-goddess

thing as well since she is the patron of monsters. In many ways she

inherited the more degenerate aspect of Azrai`s portfolio.



Gary

[Angelbialaska]

In the original Atlas (the one from the campaign setting), it's mentioned that all the gods came from the same pantheon and they were patrons of a tribe. So Basaia were part of the pantheon even before the Basarji was encountered. And since all gods appear to be known and part of the same pantheon, then I doubt that there are any other gods out there, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

There were six gods, each with their own tribe and then there was the last god who had no tribe, but who seduced others to his side.

[graham anderson]

And since all gods appear to be known and part of the same pantheon, then I doubt that there are any other gods out there, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

I cant say I agree with your thinking , what about the dwarven pantheon, It might be more accurate to say that the old gods who fought at daesmar were the entirety of one pantheon and that other pantheons exist. I dont view azrai as a god of evil necessary, i view the disagreement as in pantheon and the other gods , pantheons would not feel threatened by the disagreement. The reason i have for azrai's actions is that the other tribes destroyed his tribe and the other gods wont get involved in his revenge.

[Osprey]

In the original Atlas (the one from the campaign setting), it's mentioned that all the gods came from the same pantheon and they were patrons of a tribe. So Basaia were part of the pantheon even before the Basarji was encountered. And since all gods appear to be known and part of the same pantheon, then I doubt that there are any other gods out there, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

There were six gods, each with their own tribe and then there was the last god who had no tribe, but who seduced others to his side.

I read through the old Atlas again just to see - and it says the old Adurian pantheon was shared by the six tribes, including the Basarji. That could suggest these are the only gods of Aebrynis, but there are no direct claims that the Cerilian gods are the only gods of Aebrynis. The Atlas is very specifically written from the viewpoint of Calidhe Dossiere, and so all of its info must be considered from that perspective. Dossiere might not know of the existence of other pantheons in far-away Djapar or Thaele - it doesn't mean they don't exist.

The Basarji do prove an interesting case, though. How DID they come to worship the same pantheon as the five Adurian tribes? One theory I'm toying with is that the Basarji originated in Aduria long, long ago, and migrated east across the ocean to Djapar, a continent where they found other humans already settled, with their own gods and cultures. Perhaps this brought them into conflict with the Basarji as the immigrants fought for their own land and identity in Djapar. This ancient conflict may have become a recurring theme, and perhaps became a later impetus for some of the Basarji to migrate again, this time to south-eastern Cerilia. Perhaps the Basarji were very prosperous within the region they had claimed: their population was burgeoning, but powerful enemies on their borders (like a strong empire) may have made migration a more attractive option than war. Also, it seems reasonable to surmise that Basaia may have had a hand in guiding her priests with visions and omens. Perhaps she was aware of the other tribes' flight from the Shadow, and in her insight knew that the strength of the Basarji would be needed if the Shadow were ever to be defeated.

Just a theory. ;)

Osprey

[geeman]

At 06:49 PM 1/14/2005 +0100, Osprey wrote:



>The Basarji do prove an interesting case, though. How DID they come to

>worship the same pantheon as the five Adurian tribes?



Before Deismaar the gods were, apparently, much more active in mortal

affairs than they are at the time the setting material is published. Or, I

guess one could define it differently by noting that the "old gods" were

more involved in the events of Aebrynis than the new ones are, since the

newbies have their own non-interference pact--a sort of divine Prime

Directive, if you will. The Basarji (and the rest of the gods) might

simply have come to revere the pantheon because they were actually present

in avatar form from time to time in their homeland.



Gary

[Green Knight]

I've finished my work on the 3 creator gods.

It longish, so I'll put it in another post.

B

[Valjean]

I have to go with the idea that there is other gods than those that we see in Cerilia. We see that the Dwarves have a different group.

Maybe the other Gods were not as powerful as those at Deismaar.

I think Deismaar had a global effect on the gods, like making them understand that they can be killed.

Also, maybe the gods joined with the few at Deismaar to fight the battle. Remember that the history we have is from only one cultures point of view. Other cultures will have seen the time differently.

[Osprey]

Also, maybe the gods joined with the few at Deismaar to fight the battle.

Hmmm...I think if there were other deities at Deismaar, it would be fairly well-known, assuming they manifested along with the others.


Maybe the other Gods were not as powerful as those at Deismaar.

Remember that the history we have is from only one cultures point of view. Other cultures will have seen the time differently.

And that viewpoint (from the Atlas, etc.) is an Anuirean one. Being the original game material, I'm starting to realize that many players/DM's are rather biased toward the Anuirean viewpoint as well. I think because most people have been introduced to BR with Cerilia as the center of the civilized world, it's hard to accept a different viewpoint wherein the Cerilian deities are just a few among many. There seems to be a common opinion that the Cerilian deities are either the only ones in Aebrynis, or should be the most powerful and prominent deities in the world.

Personally, I don't agree with that thinking, though I do imagine the Deismaar cataclysm possibly having some world-spanning consequences (like corruption of the Shadow World). I treat the original Atlas and other sources like I would any historical source: as limited by their authors' sources, world-view, and biases.
For instance, the Atlas named Anduiras as the head of the old Adurian/Cerilian pantheon. I don't buy it. I think each tribe would have viewed its patron god as the premier deity, and the others as secondary. I believe these were proud, independent tribes, not willing followers of the Andu. However, it may be that the other tribes accepted Anduiras as the proper god of war, and so would accept the leadership of the Andu in the War Against the Shadow. The Andu, being a warrior tribe, would assume that the god of war is ALWAYS the lead god - one more piece of cultural bias I'm not certain was shared by the other, less-warlike tribes. I think these sorts of differences are just a few of the reasons for continuing conflict and disagreement between the Anuireans and the other Cerilian humans.

Osprey

[graham anderson]

For instance, the Atlas named Anduiras as the head of the old Adurian/Cerilian pantheon. I don't buy it. I think each tribe would have viewed its patron god as the premier deity, and the others as secondary.

which is what each of the human groups do erik is primary in the rjurik highlands and they appear to have little of the pantheon that is in anuire with erik having much more control. The atlas was an anuire centered book and the pantheon is viewed as organised having gods in certain positions. I tend to look at it as the anuirien pantheon developed during the empire and before that haelyn was the primary god (more primary or sincular with the other gods having very little if any role).

I view the gods as more individuals who have a series of alliances with other gods creating power blocks.

When a pantheon is mentioned it is the anuirien pantheon and there for does not apply to the other races.

[Green Knight]

I partially agree with this. Clearly each culture has its own twist on the worship of each god. Just look at Khinasi - they don't mention Haelyn as the Boss god, to them Avani is the head of the pantheon. Same goes for Erik and the Rjurik.

However, I still think we can call it one pantheon, since its the same gods throughout even if they are worshipped a bit differently.

B

[graham anderson]

I partially agree with this. Clearly each culture has its own twist on the worship of each god. Just look at Khinasi - they don't mention Haelyn as the Boss god, to them Avani is the head of the pantheon. Same goes for Erik and the Rjurik.

I dont view the other cultures as having a pantheon they are aware of the other gods and in some places may worship them but that does not make them follow a pantheon.

[Green Knight]

I'm thinking we may have a bit of a different interpretation of what makes a pantheon.

For instance, I'm not sure how you could claim that the Khinasi do not have pantheon of 11 gods? They do indeed place Avani the highest, and major temples of most of the other gods can be found in Khinasi lands. Even those that don't (like Kriesha) have a place in the pantheon as the enemies of the other gods.

If that doesn't constitute a pantheon, then I'm a bit unsure what does. But again, I'm thinking we are using a bit of a different definition.

B

[graham anderson]

If that doesn't constitute a pantheon, then I'm a bit unsure what does. But again, I'm thinking we are using a bit of a different definition.

Maybe I should have worded things better but look at the romans and greeks they were aware of foriegn gods and in some cases worshipped them but they were not part of their pantheon. This is sort of how I view things they may be aware of the other gods but in many places they do not worship them or even know about them. Isolated rjurik tribes if you tell them they worship a pantheon would say no they worship erik and if you told them some of the younger gods existed they might think you are lying. The same with the vos they many of them may have no idea tha laerme exists. The Khinasi may be aware of all the gods being better educated but because they are aware of them does not mean they worship a pantheon they worship for the large part avani.

That is how I view it anyway,

[Green Knight]

Ok, then I understand what you mean.

I don't agree, but I do think your views are interesting now that I really understand what you mean ;-)

B

[Osprey]

I've used the deities' names to determine how the recognized gods in each culture. If it has a name in a different language, then it's a recognized deity in that region (at least in parts). Here's the groupings:

Anuire: all Cerilian deities are recognized in Anuire, though some (Belinik, Kriesha, Eloele) aren't openly worshipped.

Brechtur: Sera, Lana (Avani), Alenecht (Belinik), Kirke (Cuiraecen), Ela (Eloele), Erik, Haelyn, Kriestal (Kriesha), Neira (Neserie), and Ruornil. Laerme seems to be the only Cerilian deity not recognized in Brechtur.

Khinasi: Avani, Belinik, Khirdai (Cuiraecen), Halaia (Haelyn), leira (Laerme), Nasri (Neserie), Rilni (Ruornil), and Sarmi (Sera).

Rjurik: Erik, Vani (Avanai), Belinik, Kirken (Cuiraecen), Holn (Haelyn), Karesha (Kriesha), Lara (Laerme), Narikja (Neserie), Lirorn (Ruornil), and Sera. Only Eloele is absent from the Rjurik pantheon.

Vosgaard: Belinik, Kriesha, Elyal (Eloele), Iraikan (Erik), Haelyn, Ayairda (Laerme), Lirovka (Ruornil), and Sirovka (Sera). The Vos have the smallest version of the pantheon, but isolation and long-standing hostility toward most everyone tends to keep make most missionaries at a safe distance - or six feet under.


Obviously this is only a general base list, the particulars are the work of the Atlas (like how many worshippers of a given deity there are in each region, the power dynamics of temples and sects, which temples are covert or illicit). Just thought this list might be helpful as a starting point for DM's and a refresher on the core rule/BRCS placement of Cerilian deities. :)

Osprey

[Arjan]

osprey, congratz with the 30k post!!

Arjan

[Sorontar]

Osprey said:
> Vosgaard: Belinik, Kriesha, Elyal (Eloele), Haelyn, Ayairda (Laerme), Lirovka (Ruornil), and Sirovka
> (Sera). The Vos have the smallest version of the pantheon, but isolation and long-standing hostility
> toward most everyone tends to keep make most missionaries at a safe distance - or six feet under.

I thought Erik/Aeric has a degree of presence in Vosgaard, both in Rjurik and Vos communities. He is the God of Hunting and the Wild.

Sorontar

[Osprey]

I thought Erik/Aeric has a degree of presence in Vosgaard, both in Rjurik and Vos communities. He is the God of Hunting and the Wild.

Sorontar

Oops, my bad, should have had Iraikhan (Erik) on the Vos list. Will edit the post to fix.

[Cuiraecen]

Sorry to back up to the debate about the gods actually being dead but...if I recall my Planescape, don't the "bodies"(essences?) of dead gods lie around in the Astral plane?

I've always thought it'd be slick if a group of planar lore scholars discovered this about the Astral, and tracked down a body of one of the old gods (Azrai, perhaps?). If the body can be found, who's to say that the god cannot be resurrected? I started writing up a Planescape/BR adventure around this, but never ended it.

[Green Knight]

Yes, why not. Even though Planescape and BR isn't very similar, there is at least one mention of orogs from the Gorgon's Crown in one PS adventure. There may be additional connections, but it's been too long since I looked in my PS books.

Of coruse, I've taken the concept one step further, and made the existence of the "dead" gods an integral part of my campaigns.

B

[irdeggman]

"Dead" and "really dead" are interesting concepts.

Something that should be worked out for continuity though would be how much of the former gods' essence was spilt in order to create the new gods and the bloodlines? In the 3.0 Deities and Demigods it has levels of deitihood and that would be a concept to investigate. For example how much of their former strength did the old gods lose during Deismaar if that is the route being taken.

While PS had what it had, BR was the only setting that had the death of the old gods being an integral part of the campaign world itself.

IMO BR is much closer to Dark Sun as far its relationship to other planes goes. In Dark Sun all other planes are connected to Athas through the Grey while in BR Aebryinnis is connected via the Shadow World (the split of light and shadow and that coexistance thing all wrapped into one).

[Osprey]

IMC I've had to work out how all the various planar travel spells and effects work. For most of them I translated travel to the Ethereal or Astral as the Shadow World, but the one possible exception was the Gate spell, which creates a direct portal. For a travelling (or summoning) Gate, I think travel to any plane or dimension should be possible, bypassing the SW entirely, but this of course relies on knowledge of any places beyond the SW, which is mostly (if not entirely) lacking in Cerilia. However, arcane/religious scholars have surely asked, "Where do fiends, celestials, and elementals come from, anyways?"

I once had a Birthright PC, Alec Darkstar (a halfling arcane trickster), get randomly transported to a random plane via a Prismatic Spray effect...he ended up in Ysgard, and I concocted a little solo mini-adventure for him in which he eventually made his way to Asgard, and with the help of Odin himself, managed to gate back to Cerilia...though Odin was quite curious about this Cerilia, particularly the Rjurik folk Alec described...

A nice little can of worms, I thought - just opening the door for an alien yet similar deity to probe Cerilia for potential converts. Wouldn't that be interesting...a Norse cult starting in Rjurik or Vosgaard? Cerilians have never really been challenged by outside pantheons before, at least not human ones.

All of this brought up the metaphysical issue of the Shadow World being a sort of barrier or shield between Aebrynis and the rest of the multiverse, and the question of how outsiders would or could penetrate such a barrier. I was thinking that if some worshippers began to follow a foreign deity, it might create a sort of window through which that deity could become connected to Aebrynis through the SW...I figure this is how the non-native demihuman and humanoid deities (like Moradin or possibly Yeenough) have worshippers in Aebrynis.

Osprey

[geeman]

At 07:29 AM 5/10/2005 +0200, Cuiraecen wrote:



>Sorry to back up to the debate about the gods actually being dead but...if

>I recall my Planescape, don`t the "bodies"(essences?) of dead gods lie

>around in the Astral plane?



Yup, they sure do... mostly.



>I`ve always thought it`d be slick if a group of planar lore scholars

>discovered this about the Astral, and tracked down a body of one of the

>old gods (Azrai, perhaps?). If the body can be found, who`s to say that

>the god cannot be resurrected? I started writing up a Planescape/BR

>adventure around this, but never ended it.



Interestingly enough, in Monte Cook`s Planescape accessory, _A Guide to the

Astral Plane_. In the "Forgotten Husks: Dead Gods" chapter under the

heading "The Fallen We Have Known" (p38) is the text:



"The Athar`s list includes powers such as Amaunator, Anduiras, Aoskar,

Bane, Basaia, [sic] Bhaal, Brenna, Dark God, Enki, Ibrandul, Kiputytto,

Leira, Masela, Moander, Myrkul, Phissanol, Reynir, Vorynn, and many more."



Note that even though the rest of the Cerilian gods are there, Azrai is

not. He could be one of the "many more" of course, but it seems more

likely to me to be a purposeful omission rather than an error.



If purposefully omitted it would seem to indicate that Azrai might be some

sort of exception to the rule, that he might still be alive (perhaps

embodied in the Cold Rider of the SW) or otherwise somewhere between the

states of living and death (or undeath and living, depending on your POV, I

suppose.)



Gary

[Rhiannon Faramiriel]

Does anyone know anything Kalisius?

He is mentioned briefly in "Coils of the Serpent" on pg. 84.

[the Silver Prince]

There doesn't seem to be much on Kalisius except for his mention on that page. It does say Kalisius is a false god; it could be one the gods that the Serpent invented for his own pantheon.

Or perhaps you could treat Kalisius as a demon prince who fooled the people into worshipping him.