Bloodlines outside Cerilia

[Green Knight]

Hi,

While some people may think that bloodlines are a relatively unique Cerilian thing (to which I may in fact agree), that won't do if you want to play BR set in other places/cultures than those of Cerilia.

I think that bloodlines are one of the more important things that sets BR apart from other worlds. So if I were to play an oriental BR campaign, it would have to have bloodlines. Otherwise I might just as well play in another campaign setting.

Not that there isn't a lot of other good features to BR as well, but w/o bloodline, it's not the same thing. So, based on this line of "reasoning", I've set about brainstorming on the issue, and would definitely like some feedback (I know this topic has been discussed before as well, but not exhaustively).

B

[Green Knight]

So far I've come up with the following (this is the Midnight Cauldron, remember?:

1. Bloodlines not profilic in Cerilia, and so they should not be profilic elsewhere either. Indeed, some areas may have markedly LESS bloodlines, but major cultures shouldn't be totally devoid of them without good cause.

2. There were 7 bloodlines created at Deismaar. No more and no less. However, that doesn't mean there cannot be additional derivations elsewhere. There doesn't HAVE to be additional derivations, but there is no real reason there CAN'T be any.

3. The creation of a bloodline is a very rare thing indeed. Seven gods died at Deismaar, where they had physically manifested their power and being, and thus their essences were scattered. The death of a god might therefor lead to the creation of bloodlines (and divine daths may have taken place before/elsewhere).

4. Proximity to a dying god (and thus proximity to Deismaar) seems to be an (important) factor when determining who gets blooded or not. However, it doesn't seem to be the only one - how close that person was to their god also seems to be important. So it might well be that heroic followers of the old gods could be imbued with a bloodline, even if they were not very close to Deismaar. So if a champion of Anduira was fighting the Shadow in the Highlands at the time of the battle at Deismaar, he might still get blooded (but would probably have become rather more powerful had he been present near the mountain).

5. Gods might also voluntarily invest part of their power by creating avatars. An avatar would be a person who very closely exemplified a deity, and whom the god used for special purposes. By and large that person would possess a granted bloodline, and could also act as a vessel for which the god to more fully manifest itself when needed.

6. The great champions of the gods who fought at Deismaar and during the War against Shadow might well have been so imbued with divine power (the gods were perhaps a bit more directly involved before Deismaar). Haelyn, Nesirie and so on would have such bloodlines, as might well the Lost and other champions of evil.

7. If the 7 gods created such exalted champions in Cerilia, they could have reated them in other areas of the world as well. In addition, if there are additioanl gods (and I think there is), those gods may also have done the same. So in distant lands there may exist bloodlines that are unrelated to the old gods and/or Deismaar.

B

[geeman]

At 01:26 PM 1/10/2005 +0100, Green Knight wrote:



>I think that bloodlines are one of the more important things that sets BR

>apart from other worlds. So if I were to play an oriental BR campaign, it

>would have to have bloodlines. Otherwise I might just as well play in

>another campaign setting.

>

>Not that there isn`t a lot of other good features to BR as well, but w/o

>bloodline, it`s not the same thing. So, based on this line of "reasoning",

>I`ve set about brainstorming on the issue, and would definitely like some

>feedback (I know this topic has been discussed before as well, but not

>exhaustively).



The solution I came up with when I did a OA version of BR on a continent on

the far side of Aebrynis from Cerilia was that the Battle of Deismaar was

not a unique event. That is, while the gods of Cerilia were fighting Azrai

on a soon to be blasted away Cerilian mountain, there was a parallel battle

going on in another hemisphere of the globe in which the same gods were

fighting another incarnation of Azrai at the exact same time he was being

fought at Deismaar. Gods are, after all, gods so having a second avatar

(or three, five or twenty) needn`t be that much of a leap for them. Also

one can then see the BoD not as a local Cerilian event but one that is

global--which IMO makes more sense considering its overall effect on the

campaign setting. Cerilia is a very small continent to be the sole center

of the world when it comes to so fundamental an issue.



Alternatively, one could assume only Azrai had the power to manifest more

than once and the gods of an oriental BR setting differed from those that

were at Deismaar. That way one could come up with entirely new types of

bloodlines, blood abilities, etc. that may be more suited to an oriental

setting. In the end, I just went with the original gods and the exact same

bloodline/domain system as that used in Cerilia (or, rather, the version I

use with more than a few tweaks and house rules) for simplicity`s sake.



If one want to do a campaign in Aebrynis without bloodlines my opinion is

that one needs to tweak the domain system drastically. While I sympathize

with the desire to use the BR domain system in order to reflect the same

types of things in another setting the system is itself just too BR

specific for use in other settings. There are a few fundamental things

about the BR domain system that are just not appropriate to a setting that

lacks bloodline and regency in the BR sense.



Gary

[Green Knight]

While a non-bloodline domain system might be desirable to some, that just won't be BR to me, so that's sort of outside the topic for the purposes of this thread (this is homebrew you know).

Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines, but haven decided on the details yet. I have, however, decided that the War against Shadow was a time of global struggle between the forces of good and evil. Beyond that I'm open to suggestions.

B

[graham anderson]

I have bloodlines elsewhere people came from far and wide to fight at daesmar many of them for azrai, there was both the land battle and the sea battle, those who fought returned home many of them to non cerilia lands. I have bloodlines spread far and wide with this although the further from cerilia the fewer blooded individuals in general, I also have some very isolated locals with blood lines when the fleets involved in the sea battle were scattered to the four winds, although there distance from the battle gave these men and women week bloodlines.

then there is trade, all the races but for the vos trade with area's outside cerilia, there is going to be bloodlines spread this way, and then there is the anuirian empire which will have spread bloodlines as well.

[Green Knight]

Here is some more:

ADURIA
I think Aduria and Cerilia have a story that is pretty well woven together (as well as the part of Djapar the Basarji came from). We do know that the same 7 gods were known/worshipped by each of the 6 cultures.

Then, if one follows my above argument, then the bloodines created at Deismaar might also have found purchaes among the peoples of Aduria (mostly Azrai perhaps). Add to this a number of refugees/remants of armies that returned to their homelands/settled elsewhere following the battle, and I think I'll assume there is a fair number of "standard 7" bloodlines in Aduria.

The main derivation will be that of Azrai, but a sprinkling of of the others besides; thsi sounds right by me, and Aduria will then not only be a place where nature is rough and harsh, but where many lands will be rules by scions of Azrai (then there would probably be awnsheghlien in Aduria as well).

ORIENTAL DJAPAR
I'm envisioning something else for the OA part of Djapar. Here the gods created powerful avatars which waged the war between light and shadow, not only in the heavens, but on the earth as well. What I haven't really decided is wheter the gods of the OA pantheon are different aspects of the "standard 7" or entirely new entities.

If they are just reps of the 7, then the bloodlines of OA Djapar would still be of the 7 basic derivations, even if none were inherited from Deismaar. If not, then we're talking new derivations.

B

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jan 10 2005, 03:26 PM
I have bloodlines elsewhere people came from far and wide to fight at daesmar many of them for azrai, there was both the land battle and the sea battle, those who fought returned home many of them to non cerilia lands.
I can also envision that quite a few heroes from outside were drawn to the fight, both on land and sea, and that some of these got blooded and returned back home. That, and 1500 years, have probably contributed to spreadign the 7 derivations a little.

However, for my purposes, this isn't enough - so there will be additional sources for bloodlines as well.

B

[Danip]

Just a little brainstorm:
In BR, bloodlines give such a big leg up to rulers that the introduction of bloodlines to other parts of the world could drastically influence the power structure. It is interesting to think of the consequences of the various bloodline spreading mechanisms you mentioned. Blooded heros returning from Desimar might have carved out a large empire in the distant blood-poor lands (a la Genghis Khan). This mechanism alone might be enough to account for the majority of blooded individuals at present. In two thousand years, the original rulers would have created a vast number of decendants. Rulers tend to have longer lifespans and more opportunities to breed. Polygamy in a OA setting might also bump up the number of scions.

As an interesting side note, geneticists have found a wide spread marker on the Y chromosone. This marker is found all over Asia and Eastern Europe. Something like .5% of the entire population of Asia has the marker (im not exact on the number). This marker appears to be a particular mutation of a marker found in a small Central Asian ethnic group. By comparing the number of defects present in the marker today to the original marker in the ethnic group, it is estimated that the split of the marker from this group occured around the time of Genghis Khan. Genghis, his brothers, and cousins who rose to power together were probably the source of this Y chromosone. That small ethnic group stayed in power all over Asia for several generations and practiced polygamy. Blooded decendants in the BR world would have stayed in power even longer.

Even on Earth survival of the fittest is a powerful mechanism, more so in the world of gods and monsters.

Cerelian conquerors might have had a similar effect. So might have the few scions who were blooded due to their affinity to the old gods not their proximity to the battle.
If you have some mechanism you like flavor-wise, then I dont think the number of decendants at present is a big sticking point for realism or consistency.

[Belisarius]

My thought is that the overwhelming bloodlines would originate from the survivors of the Desimaar battle. This mean that those suvivors would be on Cerilia and Aduria primarily. Now there would a very small percentage that would have gone back to Djapar from the Basarji survivors, and what left of the Masetian people (that were the best sailors at the time.) Now their might be some intermixing with the other cultures because of the Andurian, Brecht or Khinasi 'trade' missions. The destruction of an enitre mountain and land bridge would have bee tremndous event that would have sent durt and debris way into the atmosphere. It is concievable that these other cultures could have their own original bloodlines.

Now, remember whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Meaning that elves, Drawves, halflings , humanoids and even other creature would have bloodlines, to

[Green Knight]

Hi,

So far I've had two relatively original ideas for bloodlines the didn't originate directly from Deismaar. While the battle at Deismaar and the passing of 1500 years of time might have caused the 7 common derivations to spread over the globe, I'm also looking to incorporate some new elements here.

OA DJAPAR
For OA Djapar I've decided to go with a version of the War against Shadow that saw the gods bestow bloodlines to their greatest champions. After the war the bloodlines remained. I haven't yet decided wheter or not the OA DJAPARI worshipped the same 7 gods as the folk from Aduria, so that decision will determine whether we have just the same 7 derivations or some new ones.

UNNAMED CONTINENT
For the as-of-now unnamed continent west of Aduria, I have a different idea. Here I see the people rising against their gods (or maybe just their avatars), eventually destoying them and stealing their bloodlines for themselves. As with OA Djapar I haven't decided wheter these are the same 7 gods, or a bunch of new ones.

B

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Green Knight@Jan 11 2005, 07:15 PM
OA DJAPAR
For OA Djapar I've decided to go with a version of the War against Shadow that saw the gods bestow bloodlines to their greatest champions. After the war the bloodlines remained. I haven't yet decided wheter or not the OA DJAPARI worshipped the same 7 gods as the folk from Aduria, so that decision will determine whether we have just the same 7 derivations or some new ones.
Or perhaps the same gods, but with different names.

As far as the number of gods worshipped, I suggest that the full set of Cerilia gods is also worshipped elsewhere. Gods have a way of making their presence known and I imagine that shortly after Deismaar the new gods would have introduced themselves to the worshippers of the old and things have pretty much proceeded from there.

In one of the chats that was held with the BR developers (as part of the 5th aniversery of BR) the idea of gods on other continents, and bloodlines in Aduria was discussed. Here is the relevant section.


Question: There has been discussion of Bloodlines outside of Cerilia on the newsgroup. Are there any bloodlines in the nations outside cerilia that are not derivative of the Cerilian bloodlines (as in Bloodline of Roele, etc)? And if so, are they similar in strenght and cultural significance to those in Cerilia?

Ed Stark: Well, we'd discussed something like that for Aduria, but I really believe we'd decided that all bloodlines would derive from the cerilian gods... who were also the Adurian gods. I could be wrong here, Rich? Carrie?

E: That doesn't mean there aren't more Aebynnian gods, btw, but if there are, they weren't invovled in Deismaar.

Carrie Bebris: That's how I remember it, Ted.

Rich Baker: Nope, you're right, Ted. I guess Azrai might have had some cohorts or demigods that we just haven't read about yet, but for the most part, the bloodlines will stem from the gods killed at Deismaar.

C: There were only so many gods who blew up, after all.

E: But, remember, an explosion is spherical... bloodlines were created on both sides of the (former) isthmus.

R: Maybe all gods everywhere blew up when Deismaar when down. Maybe the universe had to wipe the cosmos clean and start from scratch.

Question: I don't mean the gods themselves, but rather are the peoples of foreign lands inhabited with bloodlines.

E: Not in my thinking.

C: We'd talked about the Anuireans colonizing other places during the height of the empire...

E: Not bloodlines derived from the gods at deismaar anyway. I mean, somebody could have sailed back to Djarpar after the battle.

E: Or Whatever.

R: (In fact, my dragon pieces explore the north coast of Aduria, where several Anuirean colonies used to exist.)

Question: But it's not on a culturally significant level like in Cerilia?

C: But, we thought most of the colonies would have been in Aduira. I suppose, however, that explorers could have bought bloodlines (a nicer alternative to smallpox) to other lands and races.

E: But, again, these are bloodlines derived from Cerilian gods... not any other gods.

R: We'd talked about the fact that Aduria's bloodlines might be more widespread, more dispersed, than Cerilia's in our initial concepting.

R: That's as far as we got, though.

E: Maybe even a little different in nature, but, Rich is right, we didn't get farther down that road.

C: I'm really looking forward to those Dragon articles, Rich.

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Jan 11 2005, 11:16 AM
Or perhaps the same gods, but with different names.
Yes, this is what I'm leaning towards. The 7 old gods of Aduria were the 7 major gods of all Aebrynis. They certainly had different names, and perhaps slightly different potfolios as well, depending on culture.

That said, I have also like the idea of there being a number of demi-gods and such, either specific to a region/culture, or with a much more narrowly defined portfolio.

So, if I end up following this, then there will be only 7 derivtions after all, but the source of the bloodlines need not be Deismaar (although I imagine the greatest part came from the singular event).

B

[ConjurerDragon]

Raesene Andu schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=2922

>

> Raesene Andu wrote:

> QUOTE (Green Knight @ Jan 11 2005, 07:15 PM) OA DJAPAR

>For OA Djapar I`ve decided to go with a version of the War against Shadow that saw the gods bestow bloodlines to their greatest champions. After the war the bloodlines remained. I haven`t yet decided wheter or not the OA DJAPARI worshipped the same 7 gods as the folk from Aduria, so that decision will determine whether we have just the same 7 derivations or some new ones.

>-----------------------------

>

>

> Or perhaps the same gods, but with different names.

>

>As far as the number of gods worshipped, I suggest that the full set of Cerilia gods is also worshipped elsewhere. Gods have a way of making their presence known and I imagine that shortly after Deismaar the new gods would have introduced themselves to the worshippers of the old and things have pretty much proceeded from there.

>

That contradicts the Basarji in Djapar denying the death of Basaïa and

denying the ascendance of Avani in her place - if the new gods simply

take over everywhere then that would simply not be possible.

bye

Michael

[geeman]

Michael Romes writes:



>> As far as the number of gods worshipped, I suggest that the full set of

>> Cerilia gods is also worshipped elsewhere. Gods have a way of making

>> their presence known and I imagine that shortly after Deis

>>

> That contradicts the Basarji in Djapar denying the death of Basaïa and

> denying the ascendance of Avani in her place - if the new gods simply

> take over everywhere then that would simply not be possible.



Well, the people of Basarji and Djapar who worship "Basaïa" are really

worshipping Avani since she is the successor of that goddess` portfolio/

What I think is meant here is that the Cerilian gods are worshipped

throughout Aebrynis whether the respective worshippers fully understand the

events of Deismaar or not. They may worship "different gods" in the sense

that they think they are embodied in a deity called Oogabooga, but that god

is, in fact, just another name for one of the gods that Cerilians worship.



In the long run there could easily be histories and facts that people living

elsewhere in Aebrynis know about the gods that Cerilians might find

unbelievable. Maybe Laerme spends a lot of time on the beaches of some

Aebrynian version of a Polynesian island and drinks a lot of rum-colas? Any

of the gods might have formed liasons with mortals creating a king of

bloodline system that rivals or surpasses that of Cerilia.... Who knows?



Gary

[Osprey]

In my Oriental BR campaign, I left Deismaar out of it entirely. My OA world used more traditional Asian deities. Nippon, the BR-mythical Japan of my world, kept its Shinto animism (deities are spirits, with a great hierarchy and range of power and authority).

Bloodlines are created by the mating of gods (spirits) and mortals. The raw strength of that bloodline is based on the spiritual power or "rank" of the immortal parent, so that brand new bloodlines can be of any strength (minor to true).

Being a mythological setting, I imagined that this sort of divine-mortal mating happened a lot in the past, and occasionally still does. Once the first generation is created, bloodlines are proliferated or die out just like Cerilian ones do. The major differences are these:

- There would be a massive diversity of bloodline derivations, far more than the "Cerilian 7."

- Derivation in OA-BR is really a scion's most powerful spiritual ancestor - a very Asian concept that I think is much more appropriate for an OA setting.

- While new bloodlines are created every so often, not all are born with great strength, and so lesser bloodlines would fade out from time to time, especially among the common folk. The nobility (buke), being fewer in number, could more easily intermarry and preserve their divine heritage, reinforcing their divine right to rule.

Actually creating this system meant trying to compile an entire pantheon, and the whole range of spirits venerated. There's a spirit for everything in Shinto, which means an endless variety of derivations and blood powers are possible. While this may not be the cookie-cutter package deal of typical D&D, I think it's a system that makes the OA setting it's own thing - quite distinct from Cerilia or Aduria.

I'll post that list in this forum a little later.

Osprey

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary Foss schrieb:



> Michael Romes writes:



...



>> That contradicts the Basarji in Djapar denying the death of Basaïa and

>> denying the ascendance of Avani in her place - if the new gods simply

>> take over everywhere then that would simply not be possible.

>

>

> Well, the people of Basarji and Djapar who worship "Basaïa" are really

> worshipping Avani since she is the successor of that goddess` portfolio/



Perhaps. But that is only one possible interpretation for that scenario.

Others would be that Basaïa never really died (as in Björns game) or

that all the people of Djafar currently worship some devilprince of fire

who plays the role of the dead godess ;-)



Osprey wrote:



>I think your ideas concerning the old gods (weakened and bitter, but still hangin` around) are interesting. IMO, though, when the gods died, people would know it. Why? Because all of their clerics would suddenly be "cut off" from their sources of divine power. In the D&D world, this isn`t some subtle question of faith and doubt, it`s a blatant effect. The village priest can`t perform miracles anymore. Nor can the one in the next village, or at the big temple in town, etc. In D&D, people don`t need the kind of human faith that humans do IRL - they have priests performing divine magic as proof of their connection to a deity or divine power of some sort (in BR, this is always a deity`s power). If Earth had such regular performances, faith would be a lot less sticky, and religions would be much more powerful (if you can imagine that).

>

However the strange phenomenon would be why Avani replaced Basaïa in the

khir-aften-el-Arrasi - but not in the homeland of Djapar. The solution

that she pretends to grant spells in Djapar as Basaïa does not very well

fit for a godess of light, reason and perhaps truth.



> What I think is meant here is that the Cerilian gods are worshipped

> throughout Aebrynis whether the respective worshippers fully

> understand the

> events of Deismaar or not. They may worship "different gods" in the

> sense

> that they think they are embodied in a deity called Oogabooga, but

> that god

> is, in fact, just another name for one of the gods that Cerilians

> worship.



That can, but need not be. In the novel Greatheart, in the short story

at the end, where we got the creation of the swords that appear in

Greatheart on the good and evil side, there is a part about the gods

following Azrai to Cerilia when he evades them. As far as I remember

they say something like that they never saw Cerilia as part of their

domain until Azrai started to corrupt the nature there... If Cerilia has

not been part of the original gods, then the new gods need not to be

acknowledged on the whole of Aebrynnis. They can, if one wishes that in

the campaign, but they need not.

bye

Michael

[graham anderson]

Another take on spirits creating the bloodlines . How about the new younger gods and other gods not part of cerilia, the 8 gods swore not to take physical form on the world but what about their children, eloele etc. They could have taken physical form and created children with people giving you the bloodlines, eloele, cuiraecen, laerme and maybe others.

[Sorontar]

Osprey said:
> - There would be a massive diversity of bloodline derivations, far more than the "Cerilian 7."
> - Derivation in OA-BR is really a scion's most powerful spiritual ancestor
> - a very Asian concept that I think is much more appropriate for an OA setting.

So how did you decide what were the appropriate blood abilities per derivation?
What if a scion had only a weak spirit's bloodline? What abilities were available?

Another alternative is to take the MiddleEarth approach and use a set of supreme beings and their maia or angels. You can get bloodlines from either of these but the derivation is controlled by who is the boss (or creator) of the angel. ie. if Bloggs is a spirit of the nature god, then any bloodline from Bloggs is of the nature god's derivation. The difference from Awnsh. and spirits/angels would have to be that they can't do blood theft.

Sorontar

[Osprey]

So how did you decide what were the appropriate blood abilities per derivation?
What if a scion had only a weak spirit's bloodline? What abilities were available?

I used a "make it up as we go along approach" - much looser and more free-form than typical D&D, I know, but it worked out fine for me.

I just posted a seperate thread in this forum where I wrote out the list of kami (gods/spirits) for my OABR campaign in Nippon, and some guidelines on how divine conception determines bloodline strength and derivation (granting a new bloodline a strength from minor to true, and a score of 5-100).

As for determining bloodline abilities, well - that's where a little creativity, and constructive use of the BRCS Ch 2 guidelines on creating new blood abilities comes in real handy. Plus I borrowed liberally from the existing lists of bloodline abilities, incorporating any that seemed appropriate.

Here's a sample bloodline ability I made especially for scions of a Tenjin (patron kami of a skill). Such scions would have a very limited set of choices for bloodline abilities, since their ancestor kami is so narrowly focused. Hence I made this power a "premier" power, slightly stronger than a typical bloodline ability (and the reason it is exclusive to Tenjin scions).

Mastery: A scion may apply a special bonus to the chosen skill of his Tenjin ancestor. For martial skills, this is a bonus to attack and damage with the chosen fighting form, for non-combat skills it is a skill check bonus.

Minor: +3 Skill modifier, or +2 Attack and Damage
Major: +6 Skill modifier, or +4 Attack and Damage

Osprey

[Green Knight]

Slightly off topic:

I find the existing blood abilities terribly limited in scope, so I've made up a host of new ones. I'd like to hear some more ideas on this, so I'll put in a new tread with "New Blood Abilities".

B