Don E
07-20-2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 14 2004, 06:03 AM
Which I think is another problematic issue. If one allows for a nonblooded nobles one are faced with two possibilites. Either they would have intermarried with blooded families a long time ago and gained bloodlines, although diluted, themselves. Otherwise one have a entirely different social strata which shouldn't be considered noble at all. In a world where nobility is quantifiable through a measure of how strong a bloodline is I find it hard to believe there would exist such an institution. The true nobility might grant titles and posts to nonblooded people, but they would hardly be considered part of the nobility themselves.
As long as the title, post and lands are heriditary, the non-blooded person is functionally a noble. Certainly blooded nobles wouldn't in normal circumstances consider marrying into that noble family in normal circumstances, but that doesn't mean they aren't noble.
I agree with you and say you are absolutely right. If one is able to keep such a class 'contained' they would qualify for the title of nobility. I was too hung up in the whole issue of being blooded and did not think of the word 'noble' in its true meaning.
Take Khinasi for example: We have the tamounzada high nobility, where you'll find the realm's strongest bloodlines, and the ajazada, or minor nobility (named families), who are made up mostly of unblooded families with some minor lines making up the most famous and prosperous members of the class.
Even in Anuire, you can divide major landholders from minor landholders based on feudalism. The realm regent has major vassals (typically one family per province), who will in turn alott land to smaller vassals, who will have in turn smaller vassals down to the level of knights who will generally be allotted a single manor (typically a few hundred acres in size). Major landholders (those with many, many manors) will typically come from blooded families (although this isn't guaranteed, as great services to the realm may result in major land grants), while the lower levels of the gentry will generally not be blooded.
My problem with this is how unlikely I fiind it that such a clear division could have been maintained between two classes who you suggest are more or less one. Whil one could say that there is a distinction between the higher (blooded) nobility and lower (unblooded) nobility, I don't think the day to day life would keep them separated enough to keep the social classes 'pure'.
What I am trying to say is that during the last 1500 years of the Anuirean region there would most certainly have been some of the lower nobility who managed to gain marriages into the upper nobility. While this would produce significantly diluted bloodlines, they would still be blooded.
In the long run I think this process would cause a significant amount of blooded people in the lower nobility, enough perhaps to have eradicated such a class in fifteen centuries. During the height of the empire this might have been frowned upon, but I think we still would have had cases where the lower nobility were 'rewarded' with a blooded spouse, or the good old story of true love breaking down all barriers.
If we tried to trace the 'noble' blood of europe back over 1500 years we would see how hopelessly complicated the issue was. I think quite a few people even on this list would be able to claim one or two points of bloodline strength :P
Which I think is another problematic issue. If one allows for a nonblooded nobles one are faced with two possibilites. Either they would have intermarried with blooded families a long time ago and gained bloodlines, although diluted, themselves. Otherwise one have a entirely different social strata which shouldn't be considered noble at all. In a world where nobility is quantifiable through a measure of how strong a bloodline is I find it hard to believe there would exist such an institution. The true nobility might grant titles and posts to nonblooded people, but they would hardly be considered part of the nobility themselves.
As long as the title, post and lands are heriditary, the non-blooded person is functionally a noble. Certainly blooded nobles wouldn't in normal circumstances consider marrying into that noble family in normal circumstances, but that doesn't mean they aren't noble.
I agree with you and say you are absolutely right. If one is able to keep such a class 'contained' they would qualify for the title of nobility. I was too hung up in the whole issue of being blooded and did not think of the word 'noble' in its true meaning.
Take Khinasi for example: We have the tamounzada high nobility, where you'll find the realm's strongest bloodlines, and the ajazada, or minor nobility (named families), who are made up mostly of unblooded families with some minor lines making up the most famous and prosperous members of the class.
Even in Anuire, you can divide major landholders from minor landholders based on feudalism. The realm regent has major vassals (typically one family per province), who will in turn alott land to smaller vassals, who will have in turn smaller vassals down to the level of knights who will generally be allotted a single manor (typically a few hundred acres in size). Major landholders (those with many, many manors) will typically come from blooded families (although this isn't guaranteed, as great services to the realm may result in major land grants), while the lower levels of the gentry will generally not be blooded.
My problem with this is how unlikely I fiind it that such a clear division could have been maintained between two classes who you suggest are more or less one. Whil one could say that there is a distinction between the higher (blooded) nobility and lower (unblooded) nobility, I don't think the day to day life would keep them separated enough to keep the social classes 'pure'.
What I am trying to say is that during the last 1500 years of the Anuirean region there would most certainly have been some of the lower nobility who managed to gain marriages into the upper nobility. While this would produce significantly diluted bloodlines, they would still be blooded.
In the long run I think this process would cause a significant amount of blooded people in the lower nobility, enough perhaps to have eradicated such a class in fifteen centuries. During the height of the empire this might have been frowned upon, but I think we still would have had cases where the lower nobility were 'rewarded' with a blooded spouse, or the good old story of true love breaking down all barriers.
If we tried to trace the 'noble' blood of europe back over 1500 years we would see how hopelessly complicated the issue was. I think quite a few people even on this list would be able to claim one or two points of bloodline strength :P