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  1. #1
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    Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 14 2004, 06:03 AM

    Which I think is another problematic issue. If one allows for a nonblooded nobles one are faced with two possibilites. Either they would have intermarried with blooded families a long time ago and gained bloodlines, although diluted, themselves. Otherwise one have a entirely different social strata which shouldn't be considered noble at all. In a world where nobility is quantifiable through a measure of how strong a bloodline is I find it hard to believe there would exist such an institution. The true nobility might grant titles and posts to nonblooded people, but they would hardly be considered part of the nobility themselves.
    As long as the title, post and lands are heriditary, the non-blooded person is functionally a noble. Certainly blooded nobles wouldn't in normal circumstances consider marrying into that noble family in normal circumstances, but that doesn't mean they aren't noble.
    I agree with you and say you are absolutely right. If one is able to keep such a class 'contained' they would qualify for the title of nobility. I was too hung up in the whole issue of being blooded and did not think of the word 'noble' in its true meaning.

    Take Khinasi for example: We have the tamounzada high nobility, where you'll find the realm's strongest bloodlines, and the ajazada, or minor nobility (named families), who are made up mostly of unblooded families with some minor lines making up the most famous and prosperous members of the class.

    Even in Anuire, you can divide major landholders from minor landholders based on feudalism. The realm regent has major vassals (typically one family per province), who will in turn alott land to smaller vassals, who will have in turn smaller vassals down to the level of knights who will generally be allotted a single manor (typically a few hundred acres in size). Major landholders (those with many, many manors) will typically come from blooded families (although this isn't guaranteed, as great services to the realm may result in major land grants), while the lower levels of the gentry will generally not be blooded.
    My problem with this is how unlikely I fiind it that such a clear division could have been maintained between two classes who you suggest are more or less one. Whil one could say that there is a distinction between the higher (blooded) nobility and lower (unblooded) nobility, I don't think the day to day life would keep them separated enough to keep the social classes 'pure'.

    What I am trying to say is that during the last 1500 years of the Anuirean region there would most certainly have been some of the lower nobility who managed to gain marriages into the upper nobility. While this would produce significantly diluted bloodlines, they would still be blooded.

    In the long run I think this process would cause a significant amount of blooded people in the lower nobility, enough perhaps to have eradicated such a class in fifteen centuries. During the height of the empire this might have been frowned upon, but I think we still would have had cases where the lower nobility were 'rewarded' with a blooded spouse, or the good old story of true love breaking down all barriers.

    If we tried to trace the 'noble' blood of europe back over 1500 years we would see how hopelessly complicated the issue was. I think quite a few people even on this list would be able to claim one or two points of bloodline strength :P

  2. #2
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    Don E schrieb:



    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

    > You can view the entire thread at:

    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...=ST&f=2&t=2751

    >

    >...

    >My problem with this is how unlikely I fiind it that such a clear division could have been maintained between two classes who you suggest are more or less one. Whil one could say that there is a distinction between the higher (blooded) nobility and lower (unblooded) nobility, I don`t think the day to day life would keep them separated enough to keep the social classes `pure`.What I am trying to say is that during the last 1500 years of the Anuirean region there would most certainly have been some of the lower nobility who managed to gain marriages into the upper nobility. While this would produce significantly diluted bloodlines, they would still be blooded.In the long run I think this process would cause a significant amount of blooded people in the lower nobility, enough perhaps to have eradicated such a class in fifteen centuries. During the height of the empire this might have been frowned upon, but I think we still would have had cases where the lower nobility were `rewa

    > rded` with a blooded spouse, or the good old story of true love breaking down all barriers.If we tried to trace the `noble` blood of europe back over 1500 years we would see how hopelessly complicated the issue was. I think quite a few people even on this list would be able to claim one or two points of bloodline strength :P

    >

    You do not take into account that bloodline strenght is not permanent.

    Assuming that a minor noble somehow gains a few points of bloodline for

    his heirs by achieving to marry into a blooded family - without control

    of a holding or successful adventures with an effect on the realm level

    he will gain no RP to enhance his line and the next marriages into

    unblooded familys will dilute it again. And the original 2E rulebook

    gave lots of opportunitys to lose RP (e.g. minor loss for minor

    alignment infraction, failure to respond to minor events). While not D&D

    consider the movie "High Noon" - how many of the blooded nobles stood up

    to the brigandage event and would not lose an amount of RP. And a loss

    of RP, if you have none, means that you would be forced to convert your

    bloodline into RP and thus lower your bloodline.

    bye

    Michael



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  3. #3
    Dilution can also lead to eventual evaporation of a line. Think about it, if an unblooded person manages to marry into a blooded family the children will have half the score of the scion parent. Now, unless the new family manages to marry their children into a bloodline, the bloodline score will be halved again. So on and so forth: each generation unless they manage to find a mate of their rank the score will be halved. Assuming that we round down (a score of less than one = 0, or unblooded), even a family with a blooded progenitor of score 80 could possibly evaporate in seven generations, while more typical scores of 20 or so (above tainted level) are gone in 5 generations.

    Furthermore, each generation will be a worse match given their diminishing bloodlines and will thus be less likely to find a blooded mate for their children.

  4. #4
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    I am quite aware that the bloodline effectively halves every generation. What I find hard to believe is that any descendant of such a blooded-nonblooded unioin would consistently marry to an unblooded person. For each generation the bloodline is halved there would also be a relative increase in the number of blooded people with a low bloodline. Even a scion of a tainted bllodlin would prefer to have his children retain the strength and try find a match of simliar, although weak, bloodline.

    Unless one introduces the idea that almost every single noble family in Anuire is closely related through marriages, there is IMO simply not enough blooded to ensure a marriage of high standing for the children. For those regions where the notion of a noble class is not so strong, one would assume mixed marriages were even more common.

    Assuming a significant number of bloodline losses is one option, but considering even a minor loss includes loosing all ones influence in a province (looose holding), I find it hard to believe non-regent scions encounter such problems with any regularity.
    Another option is to assume the bloodline actually weakens natrually in childrean after the firstborne, as discussed in another thread.
    Alternatively one could assume tainted bloodlines dimished even quicker than the higher bloodlines, but I'm not sure if I like that idea.

  5. #5
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    True Don, but consider this scenario:

    An old and wise ruler sees that his heir is young, strong and ready to take the reins at the same time that he is nearing the end of his life. A Ceremony of Coronation is arranged, complete with a priest of the dominant faith to cast the Bloodline Investiture spell.

    Even if the heir is the product of the union between the current Regent and a commoner, the effect of that spell is to give the heir a Bloodline score equivalent to the Regent plus any additional strength that the Regent would get if he had committed Bloodtheft on the heir. This has the net effect of increasing Bloodline strengths.

    Example:
    Darien Avan is getting old, and senses that Aubrae is 'ready' to take the throne. He has a Great Bloodline of 70 points. Aubrae's Bloodline is likewise Great, but only with a strength of 40.
    The description of the spell says that the resultant Blood strength is as if the higher strength has comitted Bloodtheft on the lower. 40 is immediately converted into 200 RP, 143 of which is absorbed to increase the Blood strength to 72, and the remaining 57 becomes a sizable RP pool for the new Regent.

    What we need to figure out is the question of how common abdications in favour of a younger, more fit ruler are (regardless of whether they are voluntary or not.)
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Athos69@Jul 21 2004, 06:54 AM

    Even if the heir is the product of the union between the current Regent and a commoner, the effect of that spell is to give the heir a Bloodline score equivalent to the Regent plus any additional strength that the Regent would get if he had committed Bloodtheft on the heir. This has the net effect of increasing Bloodline strengths.

    What we need to figure out is the question of how common abdications in favour of a younger, more fit ruler are (regardless of whether they are voluntary or not.)
    Personally I don't think it is a common issue at all. IMO Cerilia is a brutal world where few are luck enough to die of old age, the majority of regents are either killed in battle or through the subtle poison of assassins. Those rules are also only an issue if you play with the BRCS conversion, personally I play with the rule that one cannot benefit from bloodtheft on ones own lineage. I.e. no point in raising 20 children only to steal their bloodline.

  7. #7
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    I think several awnsheg of note would be dissapointed by that... Also twenty childrin, espessially in anuire, Can be a major political influence... Remember though very few of the blooded population are actually reagents. Marrying a blooded pauper could be prefferable to a non-blooded count in a world where blood is so important. Also one should note that (espessially if the reagents personal treasury is seperate) raising 'noble' children is VERY expensive... g'night...

  8. #8
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    Here's a point to consider: tainted bloodlines (those with a blodline score of 11 or less in BRCS terms) have no blood abilities, and thus lack any means to visibly display their blooded heritage save from the verification of a priest casting Detect Bloodline. This being the case, tainted bloodlines would, IMO, tend to blend much more easily with unblooded nobility because they lack any tangible proof, even to themselves, that their blooded heritage has any significant meaning beyond lineage. And lineage alone, in a world where the true blooded can prove their heritage through a display of their powers or express it through a Bloodmark, is a pale comparison.

    Food for thought.

    Osprey

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Ksaturn@Aug 25 2004, 04:58 AM
    I think several awnsheg of note would be dissapointed by that...
    This was one of my reasons for making this ruling. Let's see, 100 years of a breeding program... how high a bloodline would said awn have?

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