Balancing Bloodline.

[geeman]

I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what

folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,

character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just

consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from

that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain

gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level

for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of

balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original

bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that

one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d

be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e

mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the

character class system on the whole--and still be balanced by being

factored into the character`s overall equipment.



Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible

to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general

system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what

the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is

typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for

doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s

bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are

much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL

system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of

inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it

shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow

through that system.



Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)

while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =

500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38

bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to

have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of "equipment" on

his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can

then be compared to the amount of money that is "standard" for such a

character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.



No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate "level"

in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other

than what it probably is best described as--something extraneous to the

character class system itself.



Thoughts?



Gary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Feb 22 2004, 05:10 AM
I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what

folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,

character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just

consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from

that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain

gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level

for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc. Using such a system of

balancing bloodline one could go with a system very similar to the original

bloodline system (or one could have whatever expansions on the system that

one likes) with no effect on the overall character class system. There`d

be no need to portray bloodline as an ECL, character class, or whatever 3e

mechanic one prefers. The bloodline system could then remain outside the

character class system on the whole--and still be balanced by being

factored into the character`s overall equipment.



Since many blood abilities function like magic items it would be feasible

to base gp values on that, or one could come up with a more general

system. There are no existing rules that I`ve seen for determining what

the effect of having more or less equipment in one`s inventory than is

typically assumed that I`ve seen, but there are a few simple methods for

doing that. Furthermore, since one can increase, decrease or lose one`s

bloodline relatively easily, and the increments of increase/decrease are

much more subtle on the whole than the rather broad character class/ECL

system it seems more prudent to utilize the more general system of

inventory. Lastly, since one can lose bloodline entirely, it seems like it

shouldn`t be equated to XP since any loss has to be justified somehow

through that system.



Each point of bloodline score might be worth 100gp (just as an example)

while blood abilities might be rated according to their strength; minor =

500gp; major = 1,000gp; great = 2,000gp. A character with major, 38

bloodline, two minor and one major abilities then might be considered to

have 38 x 100 = 3,800 + 500 + 500 + 1,000 = 5,800gp worth of "equipment" on

his person (plus any actual equipment s/he carries.) That total value can

then be compared to the amount of money that is "standard" for such a

character to determine an overall EL for the purpose of determining encounters.



No worrying about bloodline`s ECL, XP costs to gain the appropriate "level"

in a scion character class, no need to portray bloodline as anything other

than what it probably is best described as--something extraneous to the

character class system itself.



Thoughts?



Gary


Gary,

This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the community and voted on back in May. Revisiting things definitely keeps things form moving forward IMO.

[geeman]

At 02:09 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>This is almost exactly the concept of the system the Slade and Mark V put

>together for the variants of the bloodline system that we presented to the

>community and voted on back in May.



Unless there were some changes to that document that I never saw this

suggestion is actually quite different from Option B (or any of the

proposals, all of ) which used XP to "pay" for bloodline either as a

character class or through ECL. XP and ECL are not directly related to the

cost of a bloodline in this suggestion. There are no XP costs, and no

ECL. Nobody "earns" their blood abilities. Characters could start out at

1st level with any bloodline AND all the blood abilities from that bloodline.



This suggestion would just be a way of computing that character`s EL with a

bloodline. It might equate to giving a 1st level character a powerful set

of magic items. He doesn`t have to earn those items retroactively after

character generation. The DM does, however, have some tools to recognize

that character`s abilities relative to a commoner.



Gary

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by geeman
I`ve been mulling something over for a few weeks now and I`m curious what
folks in the BR community think about the idea that instead of using ECL,
character levels, etc. to balance the BR bloodline system one could just
consider it inventory and come up with a system of balancing it from
that. That is, a bloodline and blood abilities might be assigned a certain
gp value and that could be computed into the character`s effective level
for the purpose of adventure design, CR, etc.

Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this character would swear the “Vow of Poverty” at first level (If human, otherwise at 3rd). :D

For those, who don’t know it: It’s a feat presented in the “Book of Exalted Deeds” and a must for nearly every monk (If they would exist :P ) and many druids of good alignment...

[ecliptic]

I don't know about you, but I don't let my characters just go out and buy magical items.

[Birthright-L]

> Sounds not bad, but if I would have to balance my character in this

> manner, I would take a great bloodline and would possess no equipment

> at all (apart from a walking stick and musty clothes). Naturally this

> character would swear the “Vow of Poverty� at first level (If

> human, otherwise at 3rd). :D

>

> For those, who don’t know it: It’s a feat presented in the “Book

> of Exalted Deeds� and a must for nearly every monk (If they would

> exist :P ) and many druids of good alignment...



I don`t know what that feat is, but it doesn`t sound particularly

appropriate for scions in Birthright... especially those of a Great

bloodline...



--Lord Rahvin

[geeman]

At 12:45 AM 2/23/2004 +0100, ecliptic wrote:



> I don`t know about you, but I don`t let my characters just go out and

> buy magical items.



Actually, I think the implication there was that he would sell all his

equipment or otherwise dispose of it. Buying magic items in BR is its own

little subtopic in which we have the relative scarcity of magic items in

the setting juxtaposed with the rules for regent accepting magic items in

lieu of monetary taxes, so it doesn`t really matter if character can just

go out and buy magical items or not.



BUT! Before we delve too far into that kind of thing, I don`t know if it

would really be an issue for players to give up their magic items in order

to balance their bloodlines. Under the proposed rules they could still

keep their inventory--they could even add to it beyond what is normal for

characters of their level. That increased inventory would just be factored

into their EL (not ECL) for the purpose of determining the CR and number of

the creatures they encounter in adventures. That`s it. A 10th level

character with the inventory of a 14th level character (150,000gp) would be

considered EL 12. He doesn`t have to spend XP to get that, he doesn`t have

to take levels in a character class or an ECL, he doesn`t have to do

anything at all. The DM just uses that EL to determine encounters and

awards at the adventure level. That`s it.



There`s not any real need that I can see for players to forego magic items

in order to balance their inventory values with their character

level. They would get lower XP awards in order to compensate for their

increased power--kind of like having a system for computing the XP awards

for the relative ease of encounters of a 1st level character with a +5

vorpal sword, and if one wanted to increase the amount of awards then he

could get rid of magic items, but then he`d be less efficient at

accomplishing encounters and would complete fewer of them, so it wouldn`t

be a very effective strategy for earning XP.



Gary

[geeman]

At 11:37 PM 2/22/2004 +0100, Ariadne wrote:



>Naturally this character would swear the "Vow of Poverty" at first level

>(If human, otherwise at 3rd). :D



If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then

I`ve got it.... What are the benes?



G

[kgauck]

Gary is correct to limit his analysis to xp awards from encounters, because

it would be most accurate in that role. I would be quite cautious using

such a calculation to assign encounters, while I would be quite content

using such a calculation to award xp.



Take the example of the 1st level character with the +5 vorpal sword. I

good example for my purpose here. If I have an opponant who can do nothing

more stuning than disarm the character, I have suddenly reduced this

character to a 1st level character. If I had assumed the ECL of the

character really was 8th level (15th level inventory + 1st level character /

2) I might have presnted an 8th level encounter, which could much more

easily deprive the character of his weapon.



The example is extream, but it makes a point that should not be lost when

10th level characters have 14th level powers (the point of this thread) or

equipment.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Birthright-L]

>> Naturally this character would swear the "Vow of Poverty" at first

>> level

>> (If human, otherwise at 3rd). :D

>

> If one can get that feat from circumstance rather than inclination then

> I`ve got it.... What are the benes?



Women are marginally more impressed when you explain your lack of a car,

house, or job. For birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries you can give

a conceited excuse instead of a present.



Hmm... This feat may be a bit overpowered... Gary, if circumstances

have given you this feat, you may have to suffer an xp penalty that

stunts your development...



--Lord Rahvin

[irdeggman]

OK Gary I see what you mean about this proposal being 'different' than Shade/Mark V's.

The major difference as I see it is that you are not converting the gp value of the equivalent magic item into an exp cost (essentially one step less than their proposal). This however leads to its own internal problems. How would a scion gain any additional blood abilties if it is based soley on spending gps? Part of the process was the asumption that scions could gain new blood abilities by increasing their bloodline via various methods (bloodtheft, Investiture, ruling a domain effectively, etc.)

Regents have an essentially unlimited income as far as this goes, with 1 GB roughly equivalent to 2000 gp. Something a non-regent scion doesn't have.

Doom sent me a home brewed revision of Chapt 2 before I put out the current revision that had a more detailed version of the magic item equivalent exp cost scenario, but I dismissed it based on the results of the poll we ran on the topic. It was the absolutely least favored option. Basically I wasn't going to propose a revision that reflected the exact opposite of what the polls said 'the people' (or at least those that voted) wanted.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by ecliptic@Feb 23 2004, 12:45 AM
I don't know about you, but I don't let my characters just go out and buy magical items.
That's why it IS the perfect feat (especially for BR, if you ask me). You NEED not! at 20th level your walking stick is a +5 holy quarterstaff...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Birthright-L@Feb 23 2004, 01:30 AM

I don`t know what that feat is, but it doesn`t sound particularly
appropriate for scions in Birthright... especially those of a Great
bloodline...
This feat is pretty easy. You CAN'T get magical items or other things of value (if you get, you have to done them to a good temple or so), but you get several advantages:- about 10 exalted bonus feats till 20th level (good feats presents in the "book of Exalted deeds")
- DR 10/evil
- Energy resistance 10 (or 15, I forgot) against ALL elements
- +8 to one ability/+6 to a second/+4 to a third and +2 to a fourth
- Other useful things like need not to eat and breath
and, and, and...

[Ariadne]

Oh, and naturally not every scion needs to be a regent, even a great blooded

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2287

> irdeggman wrote:

> OK Gary I see what you mean about this proposal being `different` than Shade/Mark V`s.

> The major difference as I see it is that you are not converting the gp value of the equivalent magic item into an exp cost (essentially one step less than their proposal). This however leads to its own internal problems. How would a scion gain any additional blood abilties if it is based soley on spending gps? Part of the process was the asumption that scions could gain new blood abilities by increasing their bloodline via various methods (bloodtheft, Investiture, ruling a domain effectively, etc.)

>

> Regents have an essentially unlimited income as far as this goes, with 1 GB roughly equivalent to 2000 gp. Something a non-regent scion doesn`t have.

>

>

As I see it the income you refer here to is not the regents income, but

the realms income which is not gp and not the regents.

Only using the FINANCES action (which allows only a limited transfer)

can the realms income transferred into transportable wealth and even

then it´s not the regents money and if he acts as if it were then he may

have to suffer the consequences...

bye

Michael

[the Falcon]

Gary, that idea is mine -- and an old one, at that.
I posted it on Friday 2 November 2001 13:54:07 GMT+1 on birthright-l.
Check out the archives:
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A...hright-l&P=R283 (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0111A&L=birthright-l&P=R283)

[geeman]

At 04:22 PM 2/23/2004 +0100, the Falcon wrote:



>Gary, that idea is mine -- and an old one, at that.



The Falcon having originated the idea is duly noted.



Gary

[geeman]

At 11:40 AM 2/23/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>How would a scion gain any additional blood abilties if it is based soley

>on spending gps? Part of the process was the asumption that scions could

>gain new blood abilities by increasing their bloodline via various methods

>(bloodtheft, Investiture, ruling a domain effectively, etc.)



In this suggestion bloodlines aren`t gained or paid for by spending

gp. Their presence is just accounted for to balance the character for the

purpose of EL by giving the bloodline a gp value. If a scion committed

bloodtheft (or otherwise increased his bloodline) he wouldn`t then spend gp

to actually use it. His bloodline would just increase, and the gp value of

his inventory would go up by whatever amount the his bloodline score

increased and whatever the value of the blood abilities he gained might

be. There`s no "transaction" involved.



For example, if bloodline score is worth 100gp/point, a minor blood ability

500gp and a major blood ability 1,000gp a scion with a bloodline score of

15 and a minor blood ability would have a 2,000gp bloodline. He doesn`t

spend those gp. It`s just factored into his inventory as a kind of

"virtual" magic item, if you will. If that scion committed bloodtheft on

someone (or a couple people) and gained enough points to bump his bloodline

score up to 20 and increase his minor blood ability to a major blood

ability the value added to his inventory would increase to 3,000gp.



If the total value of his bloodline puts him into a higher bracket than he

would normally have access to (according to Table 5-1 in the DMG) then that

can be used to change his EL for the purpose of determining encounters and

CR awards--but NOT his ECL. There`s no level adjustment requiring XP to be

earned, nor does he actually pay for his bloodline with gp.



>Doom sent me a home brewed revision of Chapt 2 before I put out the

>current revision that had a more detailed version of the magic item

>equivalent exp cost scenario, but I dismissed it based on the results of

>the poll we ran on the topic. It was the absolutely least favored

>option. Basically I wasn`t going to propose a revision that reflected the

>exact opposite of what the polls said `the people` (or at least those that

>voted) wanted.



Not having seen that I can`t really comment on it, but I don`t think this

method has actually been discussed much in the BR community, so the polling

done for the earlier bloodline proposals doesn`t really make much

difference since nobody`s really presented a system yet (other than the

rather vague one described here.)



Gary

[Ariadne]

OK, after there are some of the opinion, taking the “Vow of Poverty” more is a joke than a feat, I’ve looked it up. As I already said, that feat fits perfectly into a low-magic world (like BR), where you have to jump for joy, if you get a +1 dagger or a potion of “cure light wounds” (depending on DM of course)...
Naturally this feat is perfect for any class, that can’t use martial weapons (like monks and druids). It is limited useful for sorcerers, wizards and clerics (sorcerers/ wizards, because they CAN’T use any magical item with that feat and clerics, because they can’t use armor).

Prerequisites: Good alignment, Another exalted feat
Drawbacks: No material possessions, apart from food for one day, ordinary simple weapons and simple clothes. If they get material possession, they have to spend it for good deeds.

Advantages (listed for a human character of 20th level, who took this feat at first level):· 10 bonus exalted feats
· +8 to one ability score of choice, +6 to another, +4 to a third and +2 to a last
· Energy resistance 15 (fire, electricity, cold, acid and sonic)
· Endure Elements (always active)
· Any weapon (including unarmed strike and natural attack) becomes a +5 weapon
· Weapon counts as magical (naturally) and good for overcoming spell resistance
· Gains +3 to all saves
· Gains +10 to AC, a +3 deflection bonus and a +2 bonus to his natural armor
· Regeneration
· Damage reduction 10/ evil
· True seeing (always actice)
· Freedom of movement (always active)
· Need not to eat, drink and breath
· Immune to detect thoughts, discern lies and any spell, that discerns alignment
· No guarantee, that I haven’t overseen something :D
It is to say, that a character ,who has this feat gains all these abilities IN ADDITION to any abilities she gets because of her class and naturally a 20th level character gains the normal +5 bonus to her ability score(s) as well (resulting in a +25 bonus to her ability scores). A character gains not all these abilities at once, but advantages increase if she advances in level (There is a table listed in the “Book of Exalted Deeds” where you can see what you get exactly per level. Btw. that book is a must for any player of a good character, if you ask me). There is NO ECL or something to balance it apart from having no possessions.

OK, now tell me, if some characters don’t trade magical items against that feat. Especially, if the DM is a horror and grants his players a gigantic +1 ring of resistance at 10th character level and doubles XP costs for creating own magical items...

That feat is not really something to laugh at! If you count all bonusses together, you have to shine like a christmas tree in a detect magic spell to get the same.

[Birthright-L]

> OK, now tell me, if some characters don’t trade magical items

> against that feat. Especially, if the DM is a horror and grants his

> players a gigantic +1 ring of resistance at 10th character level and

> doubles XP costs for creating own magical items...

>

> That feat is not really something to laugh at! If you count all

> bonusses together, you have to shine like a christmas tree in a detect

> magic spell to get the same.



It is something to laugh at, I`m sorry. It sounds even better than the

"Descendant of the Gods" class writeup my player proposed as a joke.

(At 20th level you exploded on death, making everyone around you a

scion.)



Choosing feats for a campaign setting is not a matter of simply players

finding which books better helps you bypass your DM`s restrictions.



And if a feat is so cool that everyone should take it, or every good

character, or every character within a certain campaign, it certainly

can expect not only criticism but a fair amount of embarrassment...



--Lord Rahvin

[kgauck]

Where is this "Vow of Poverty" feat comming from? "Book of Exalted Deeds"?



Its cetainly a quite different ball of wax from the one presented in the

"Book of Hallowed Might", which grants an insight bonus of +1/2 levels (max

+10) to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck@Feb 24 2004, 10:50 PM
Where is this "Vow of Poverty" feat comming from? "Book of Exalted Deeds"?

Yep. The "Book of Exalted Deeds" is the good counterpart to the "Book of Vile Darkness". It's an original WOTC book...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Birthright-L@Feb 24 2004, 07:10 PM
Choosing feats for a campaign setting is not a matter of simply players finding which books better helps you bypass your DM`s restrictions.

Well, naturally it is to bypass DM restrictions (well, IF there are). If a campaign group gets magical items normally, there is no reason to take it. The point was, to GIVE up equipment to get a better bloodline. And I told a way to undergo this. That's all!!

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Feb 24 2004, 07:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne @ Feb 24 2004, 07:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Birthright&#045;L@Feb 24 2004, 07:10 PM
Choosing feats for a campaign setting is not a matter of simply players finding which books better helps you bypass your DM`s restrictions.

Well, naturally it is to bypass DM restrictions (well, IF there are). If a campaign group gets magical items normally, there is no reason to take it. The point was, to GIVE up equipment to get a better bloodline. And I told a way to undergo this. That&#39;s all&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
You see I look at this differently. Taking this feat in a setting where magic items are rare is actually power gaming and bypassing restrictions. I mean what is the point (game blance wise)in taking a restriction that is not really a restriction. If a PC is not giving anything up and gaining a whole bunch of things, like are granted by this feat, then there is a serious bust in the way things are being handled, IMO.

[kgauck]

> I mean what is the point (game blance wise)in taking a restriction

> that is not really a restriction.



Maybe we should task Gary with figuring out the treasure value of every feat

so that we can modify ECL by such considerations. >)



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Mark_Aurel]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Feb 25 2004, 01:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne @ Feb 25 2004, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kgauck@Feb 24 2004, 10:50 PM
Where is this "Vow of Poverty" feat comming from? "Book of Exalted Deeds"?

Yep. The "Book of Exalted Deeds" is the good counterpart to the "Book of Vile Darkness". It&#39;s an original WOTC book... [/b][/quote]
My preferred alternate title for &#39;The Book of Exalted Deeds&#39; would be &#39;The Manual of Munchkin Might.&#39;

Vow of Poverty is only balanced in campaigns that uses the default D&D treasure model. Even in such campaigns, it&#39;s somewhat fishy. If you calculate the equivalent gear the feat grants, you arrive at a value of somewhere around 25%-40% greater than the treasure an average PC is &#39;supposed&#39; to have. Of course, there&#39;s the matter of top-end items and customizability, but the bonus feats given should cover that somewhat. In a Birthright campaign that uses a lower magic item level, Vow of Poverty is about as appropriate as a Sherman tank. Of course, a DM may still allow a significantly toned down variant of it.

Beyond Vow of Poverty, The Manual of Munchkin Might also contains other things that aren&#39;t quite balanced. In fact, they make a point that the Saint template specifically violates their own level adjustment rules. It grants more power than it should for the level adjustment it incurs - and the excuse for doing so? &#39;Role-playing.&#39; While I don&#39;t see anything wrong with an individual DM doing so in his campaign if he&#39;s confident he can balance it that way, there&#39;s definitely something wrong with WotC presenting deliberately unbalanced game options. When I buy a WotC book, I&#39;d very much like them to present stuff in line with the standard D&D design guidelines - stuff that is fairly well balanced. And playtested. I don&#39;t want to see &#39;we deliberately made this unbalanced because we think it&#39;s cool.&#39; A sidebar discussing &#39;how to balance game mechanic benefits with role-playing penalties&#39; would be okay.

In this particular case, the WotC label means very little. James Wyatt has produced some good stuff (most notably Oriental Adventures), but whenever it comes to the religious books, he seems to churn out a lot of boring garbage. I hope he&#39;s kept far away from the Complete Divine.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman+Feb 24 2004, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (geeman &#064; Feb 24 2004, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In this suggestion bloodlines aren`t gained or paid for by spending gp.* Their presence is just accounted for to balance the character for the purpose of EL by giving the bloodline a gp value.* If a scion committed bloodtheft (or otherwise increased his bloodline) he wouldn`t then spend gp to actually use it.* His bloodline would just increase, and the gp value of his inventory would go up by whatever amount the his bloodline score increased and whatever the value of the blood abilities he gained might be.* There`s no "transaction" involved.
For example, if bloodline score is worth 100gp/point, a minor blood ability 500gp and a major blood ability 1,000gp a scion with a bloodline score of 15 and a minor blood ability would have a 2,000gp bloodline.* He doesn`t spend those gp.* It`s just factored into his inventory as a kind of "virtual" magic item, if you will.* If that scion committed bloodtheft on someone (or a couple people) and gained enough points to bump his bloodline score up to 20 and increase his minor blood ability to a major blood ability the value added to his inventory would increase to 3,000gp.
If the total value of his bloodline puts him into a higher bracket than he would normally have access to (according to Table 5-1 in the DMG) then that can be used to change his EL for the purpose of determining encounters and CR awards--but NOT his ECL.* There`s no level adjustment requiring XP to be earned, nor does he actually pay for his bloodline with gp.[/b]
Or, a different way you could factor this in is have the DM secretly deduct the gp value of the aquired blood powers etc. from the treasure he awards the character/party with in the future. That&#39;s basically how I do it -- and not just with bloodlines. Since I sort of ad lib the handing ou of treasure in my campaign in a kind of haphazard way, I just once in a while check how much treasure they actually have compared how much I would like them to have at this point in their XP progression and then just compensate for that in future adventures.

<!--QuoteBegin-geeman@Feb 24 2004, 12:30 PM
Not having seen that I can`t really comment on it, but I don`t think this method has actually been discussed much in the BR community, so the polling done for the earlier bloodline proposals doesn`t really make much difference since nobody`s really presented a system yet (other than the rather vague one described here.)[/quote]
Actually, I think this method was hardly discussed at all after I introduced it at the time. It&#39;s interesting to see it resurface after all this time. :)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by irdeggman
You see I look at this differently. Taking this feat in a setting where magic items are rare is actually power gaming and bypassing restrictions. I mean what is the point (game blance wise)in taking a restriction that is not really a restriction. If a PC is not giving anything up and gaining a whole bunch of things, like are granted by this feat, then there is a serious bust in the way things are being handled, IMO.

First it was something to show holes in a system. Naturally every player (or nearly everyone) takes the best for his character, what he can get. And one thing is this feat...
And OK, if the player playes a neutral or evil character, he has to bite in the sour apple and can slip through no hole :D

Second, that feat is balanced with having and gaining absolute no possession of value. This means you can’t ever use magical items or even masterwork things, you actually GET from your DM (if it’s the “perfect” magical item for you, you have lost :D ). And: If you “borrow” a magical item from a other player for only a single round (even, if using a scroll or something), you loose all benefits of that vow permanetly. So the player HAS to watch himself (hard drawback if you ask me).

Further this feat is not for every class. Take the ordinary fighter: He can’t use armor of any type and no martial weapon. IMO, even if he uses a quarterstaff, no armor (end that’s why even with dex 18 a more or less low AC) is very deadly at the first about 6 levels. Only a monk (gaining his wis bonus to AC) and a bit later a druid (gaining wild shape at 5th level) have less problems to survive the “hard” first levels. So you can say, not all guys who actually take that feat are wise or survive long enough to get the “good” benefits of it, maybe only if they have the “Vow of Peace” as well ;) (Don’t ask, the “Vow of Peace” is definitivly only useful for NPC’s).

And as I said, if a DM handles magical items “normally” (without restrictions), a guy with a “vow of poverty” gains nearly the same as a normal player of same level. He only needs not to “fight” to get some particular “found” magical item...

Oh, I nearly forgot: Using a quarterstaff or similar simple weapon makes it hard to pierce someone’s heart to gain the benefits of bloodtheft (just an idea)...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Mark Aurel+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mark Aurel)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Beyond Vow of Poverty, The Manual of Munchkin Might also contains other things that aren&#39;t quite balanced. In fact, they make a point that the Saint template specifically violates their own level adjustment rules. It grants more power than it should for the level adjustment it incurs - and the excuse for doing so? &#39;Role-playing.&#39; [/b]
I must say that I didn’t read the saint that good to give a comment until now. I only know that a saint suffers +2 ECL and there are hard requirements to become one (something like never behaving other than good, 3 required exalted feats and one extraordinary sacrifice [whatever is meant by that]). Naturally you’re right, that IF you become a saint, the ECL is added, so you have spontaneously gained two levels. That is quite unbalancing compared with the rest of the group...

BTW the “Book of Vile Darkness” isn’t much different from the “Book of Exaltd Deeds”, if you look at presented stuff. The ONLY difference is: There aren’t enough players of evil characters around, who can use it (if there where, they wouldn’t survive long enough in a normal group, to check out the advantages of that book). And maybe I’m a bit conservative, but the only comment I can give to the “Book of Vile Darkness”: It is tasteless...

Oh, realy unbalancing are the “Gestalt Characters” presented in Unearthed Arcana (OK, other thread, but I wanted to mention it).

<!--QuoteBegin- Mark Aurel
I hope he&#39;s kept far away from the Complete Divine. [/quote]
What’s that? Can you tell something more?

[Azrai]

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel@Feb 25 2004, 11:08 AM
My preferred alternate title for &#39;The Book of Exalted Deeds&#39; would be &#39;The Manual of Munchkin Might.&#39;

Vow of Poverty is only balanced in campaigns that uses the default D&D treasure model. Even in such campaigns, it&#39;s somewhat fishy. If you calculate the equivalent gear the feat grants, you arrive at a value of somewhere around 25%-40% greater than the treasure an average PC is &#39;supposed&#39; to have. Of course, there&#39;s the matter of top-end items and customizability, but the bonus feats given should cover that somewhat. In a Birthright campaign that uses a lower magic item level, Vow of Poverty is about as appropriate as a Sherman tank. Of course, a DM may still allow a significantly toned down variant of it.

Beyond Vow of Poverty, The Manual of Munchkin Might also contains other things that aren&#39;t quite balanced. In fact, they make a point that the Saint template specifically violates their own level adjustment rules. It grants more power than it should for the level adjustment it incurs - and the excuse for doing so? &#39;Role-playing.&#39; While I don&#39;t see anything wrong with an individual DM doing so in his campaign if he&#39;s confident he can balance it that way, there&#39;s definitely something wrong with WotC presenting deliberately unbalanced game options. When I buy a WotC book, I&#39;d very much like them to present stuff in line with the standard D&D design guidelines - stuff that is fairly well balanced. And playtested. I don&#39;t want to see &#39;we deliberately made this unbalanced because we think it&#39;s cool.&#39; A sidebar discussing &#39;how to balance game mechanic benefits with role-playing penalties&#39; would be okay.

In this particular case, the WotC label means very little. James Wyatt has produced some good stuff (most notably Oriental Adventures), but whenever it comes to the religious books, he seems to churn out a lot of boring garbage. I hope he&#39;s kept far away from the Complete Divine.

Good joke. People playing in your campaign do not have any fun at all, do they?

IMO BoED is perfectly balanced.

You forgot the most important point considering game balance in BoED: GOOD characters have slightly disadvantages compared to neutral characters and evil ones. It is always a problem playing a REALLY good character in a not so good campaigns. BoED solves this problem perfectly, as does the BoVD for evil characters.

[ConjurerDragon]

Ariadne schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2287

>

> Ariadne wrote:

>
You see I look at this differently. Taking this feat in a setting where magic items are rare is actually power gaming and bypassing restrictions. I mean what is the point (game blance wise)in taking a restriction that is not really a restriction. If a PC is not giving anything up and gaining a whole bunch of things, like are granted by this feat, then there is a serious bust in the way things are being handled, IMO.

>

> First it was something to show holes in a system. Naturally every player (or nearly everyone) takes the best for his character, what he can get. And one thing is this feat...

> And OK, if the player playes a neutral or evil character, he has to bite in the sour apple and can slip through no hole :D

>

Ach and ouch - and I had just now considred to ask Björn if such exalted

feats would fit my Paladin who is LN ;-)



> And as I said, if a DM handles magical items “normally” (without restrictions), a guy with a “vow of poverty” gains nearly the same as a normal player of same level. He only needs not to “fight” to get some particular “found” magical item...

>

> Oh, I nearly forgot: Using a quarterstaff or similar simple weapon makes it hard to pierce someone’s heart to gain the benefits of bloodtheft (just an idea)...

>

Just break the Quarterstaff into small pieces - Jonathan Harker can do

it and Van Helsing as well so adventurers certainly can :-)



On the matter of calling the use of that feat as "breaking the rules"

and "power gaming" and whatnot in a world where magical items are rare.

Then every classability that gives magical attacks for free are just as

much more valuable as this feat and "power gaming". There is no monk in

Birthright, but in other rare-magic worlds to get +3 attacks without

magical weapons is fine, not to mention the +5 Arrows the Arcane Archer

gets for free in a world where to create +5 arrows cost 25% or 50% more

than in other worlds if you actually find someone who would create them...

Even the spells "Greater Magic Weapon" or similar or even *ALL SPELLS*

are actually powergaming (in a world where a magical weapon +1 is a

heirloom!) as in Birthright Wizards are so rare. We should not allow

Players to select Wizards at all ;-)

bye

Michael

[Mark_Aurel]

Originally posted by Azrai+Feb 25 2004, 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Azrai @ Feb 25 2004, 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mark_Aurel@Feb 25 2004, 11:08 AM
My preferred alternate title for &#39;The Book of Exalted Deeds&#39; would be &#39;The Manual of Munchkin Might.&#39;

Vow of Poverty is only balanced in campaigns that uses the default D&D treasure model. Even in such campaigns, it&#39;s somewhat fishy. If you calculate the equivalent gear the feat grants, you arrive at a value of somewhere around 25%-40% greater than the treasure an average PC is &#39;supposed&#39; to have. Of course, there&#39;s the matter of top-end items and customizability, but the bonus feats given should cover that somewhat. In a Birthright campaign that uses a lower magic item level, Vow of Poverty is about as appropriate as a Sherman tank. Of course, a DM may still allow a significantly toned down variant of it.

Beyond Vow of Poverty, The Manual of Munchkin Might also contains other things that aren&#39;t quite balanced. In fact, they make a point that the Saint template specifically violates their own level adjustment rules. It grants more power than it should for the level adjustment it incurs - and the excuse for doing so? &#39;Role-playing.&#39; While I don&#39;t see anything wrong with an individual DM doing so in his campaign if he&#39;s confident he can balance it that way, there&#39;s definitely something wrong with WotC presenting deliberately unbalanced game options. When I buy a WotC book, I&#39;d very much like them to present stuff in line with the standard D&D design guidelines - stuff that is fairly well balanced. And playtested. I don&#39;t want to see &#39;we deliberately made this unbalanced because we think it&#39;s cool.&#39; A sidebar discussing &#39;how to balance game mechanic benefits with role-playing penalties&#39; would be okay.

In this particular case, the WotC label means very little. James Wyatt has produced some good stuff (most notably Oriental Adventures), but whenever it comes to the religious books, he seems to churn out a lot of boring garbage. I hope he&#39;s kept far away from the Complete Divine.

Good joke. People playing in your campaign do not have any fun at all, do they?

IMO BoED is perfectly balanced.

You forgot the most important point considering game balance in BoED: GOOD characters have slightly disadvantages compared to neutral characters and evil ones. It is always a problem playing a REALLY good character in a not so good campaigns. BoED solves this problem perfectly, as does the BoVD for evil characters. [/b][/quote]
Actually, I think the people that play in my campaigns have a great deal of fun. Why else would the same group come back time and again after 12 years of playing? I&#39;ve DMed other groups as well - I was in contact with one player who moved away a few years ago recently. He lauded me as the best DM he&#39;d ever had, and asked if I could come down and run a campaign where he lives now (about 2-4 hours away, depending on transportation).

So, yes, I&#39;d like to believe players have fun in my campaigns, since you asked so nicely.

I can certainly respect that you are of the opinion that the BoED is balanced. That doesn&#39;t necessarily make it so, however. The fact that &#39;good&#39; characters may sometimes take &#39;hits&#39; in a power-gaming sense for being &#39;good&#39; (turning down treasure, giving away stuff, whatever) does not mean they should be granted any game mechanical benefits for doing so. Doing that should be left to the individual DM. I&#39;d even consider it great if WotC gave a set of guidelines or ideas that would help people hammer out how to award such. I do not appreciate it when WotC explicitly violates their own rules, the basic design guidelines they&#39;ve followed since 3e, and take it upon themselves to turn out a deliberately power-inflated template as the standard.

You see, I&#39;m of the mind that people should be able to feel free to play the character they want to. If the game mechanical rewards for playing one type of character is greater than for playing another type of character, then you&#39;re penalizing yourself if you pick the &#39;lesser&#39; choice, even if it is the more fun one. As a DM, I might occasionally try to equalize somewhat for that, but generally, I prefer the options to be equal all the way. If you intrinsically reward one sort of behavior more than another, you also force players in that direction somewhat. It simply isn&#39;t fair to those that want to play something else.

The most fair thing to do is place the reward on the same level as the penalty. If you have a paladin that denies rewards for great quests, gives away most of what he earns, and so forth, he&#39;ll be compensated for that by NPC goodwill, favors, and so forth - and possibly XP - not through getting an overpowered template.

Most of the stuff in the BoED is okay balancewise - it&#39;s just that there are elements that hints at a poor game design philosophy.

[Mark_Aurel]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Feb 25 2004, 08:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne @ Feb 25 2004, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Mark Aurel@
Beyond Vow of Poverty, The Manual of Munchkin Might also contains other things that aren&#39;t quite balanced. In fact, they make a point that the Saint template specifically violates their own level adjustment rules. It grants more power than it should for the level adjustment it incurs - and the excuse for doing so? &#39;Role-playing.&#39;
I must say that I didn?t read the saint that good to give a comment until now. I only know that a saint suffers +2 ECL and there are hard requirements to become one (something like never behaving other than good, 3 required exalted feats and one extraordinary sacrifice [whatever is meant by that]). Naturally you?re right, that IF you become a saint, the ECL is added, so you have spontaneously gained two levels. That is quite unbalancing compared with the rest of the group...

BTW the ?Book of Vile Darkness? isn?t much different from the ?Book of Exaltd Deeds?, if you look at presented stuff. The ONLY difference is: There aren?t enough players of evil characters around, who can use it (if there where, they wouldn?t survive long enough in a normal group, to check out the advantages of that book). And maybe I?m a bit conservative, but the only comment I can give to the ?Book of Vile Darkness?: It is tasteless...

Oh, realy unbalancing are the ?Gestalt Characters? presented in Unearthed Arcana (OK, other thread, but I wanted to mention it).

<!--QuoteBegin- Mark Aurel
I hope he&#39;s kept far away from the Complete Divine.
What?s that? Can you tell something more? [/b][/quote]
The Complete Divine is an upcoming WotC product - it&#39;s probably going to be like Complete Warrior. Basically a hardcover version of Defenders of the Faith for 3.5e, with stuff added from all over the place. I&#39;d expect about 100 pages of prestige classes, some base classes, a load of feats, a heap of magic items, and a truckful of spells. I know you like priests, so I have no doubts you will enjoy it, but I suspect it will be somewhat bland.

As for the BoED and the BoVD, the latter is a DM&#39;s book, and great as such. It contains some great ideas and reminders for enriching a campaign, IMO - it&#39;s given me some truly despicable villains that my players have really hated. I don&#39;t think I&#39;d really want to DM a campaign where players used the material in there much, though. The main problem with both books is that their source material seems to be pretty much exclusively occidental in nature. I think that kind of works for the BoVD, but the BoED feels a bit too much like it was written in a church. I also think it parrots the BoVD a bit too much, being too much of a mirror image, and too little its own book.

The problem with the saint template isn&#39;t so much the fact that you can get it in a snap - it&#39;s that they explicitly state that they&#39;ve kept the level adjustment artificially low to reward good characters.

Gestalt characters is certainly a powerful option - and there&#39;s several other options of a high power level in UA. There&#39;s a very crucial difference between that and the BoED, though - the options such as gestalt characters in UA is intended to be used instead of normal characters and normal rules. The saint template isn&#39;t a variant or alternate rule - it should be possible to drop into any campaign - but it&#39;s also deliberately overpowered.

It&#39;s not so much the case itself that&#39;s bad - there&#39;s certainly been overpowered and underpowered templates and classes and races and such before. The problem is just the attitude they&#39;re displaying with regards to it - deliberately introducing an overpowered option. Feels like power creep to me.