Birthright = Hackmaster system?

[morgramen]

I saw this over on Randy's site and thought I'd post it here to see if anyone knows anything more about this.

Hackright by Kenzer (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=387191&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

Scroll down the post on that link, and you'll see 2 entries in the product list that ought to make your eyebrows perk up. From what I've heard, Hackmaster was sort of a "joke" system. Hopefully Birthright won't become a comedy act...

(Just in case the email list converter thing doesn't port the BB COde well, here's the full text for the link:)

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showflat.ph...sb=5&o=&fpart=1 (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=387191&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

[Don E]

Hmm, looks like my predictions were wrong. The title "HackRight - The Continent of Cerilia" seems to indicate they are serious about continuing this HackRight line.

Some previous discussion about HackRight can be found at:
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2253

Cheers,
Don E

[Arius Vistoon]

i' confused about that.. i don't understand the "legacy"" of that product..
it's an official product ( without us ) ? and it's not free ?
KEN 2123 Hackmaster: Hackright $34.99
KEN 2125 HackMaster: HackRight - The Continent of Cerilia $34.99

Wizard of the coast agree with them ?
Isn't the same product than us ? But, it's the same "background" with different rules ?
Why have two systems ?

[teloft]

monney talks.

+ we have new channels to recrute new players to the on-line comunity.

[Birthright-L]

> Wizard of the coast agree with them ?

> Isn`t the same product than us ? But, it`s the same

> "background" with different rules ?

> Why have two systems ?



Maybe we should just count ourselves lucky they didn`t decide to cut out

the no-profit system.



--Lord Rahvin

[Foundry_Dwarf]

Originally posted by teloft@Feb 13 2004, 02:04 AM
monney talks.

+ we have new channels to recrute new players to the on-line comunity.
Actually, FWIHH Kenzer & Company got a license from WotC before the first HackMaster book came out to use anything from AD&D.

Then Kenzer & Company made the "mistake" of hiring a Birthright fanatic ;) :D

[kgauck]

My interest here would be a "Continent of Cerilia" that took an interest in

those places that made most sense from a Hack perspective, rather than just

doing a Hack version of the same places that the original product

concentrated on. Some overlap certainly makse sense, especially when the

potential for a humorous reading of the familiar is there, but I would be

interested in seeing new realms detailed as well, even those realms are

chosen because they are the most likely to appeal to the Knights of the

Dinner Table, or their Peers.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[morgramen]

First off, I wanted to say thanks to Foundry Dwarf for so actively answering the questions in this matter. It would have been an easier thing to simply drop a one timer to "defend" the Hackmaster line and then disappear.

Thanks FD!

Now my question is (perhaps) loaded. How much "parody" is there in a typical Hackmaster system? Once this product hits the shelves, am I going to be able to get anything out of it (I'm not interested in parady games at all.)

For example, are the mechanics "sound 3.5" or are they more in the vein of providing goofy effects for humourous situations (IE. What happens when I slip on a bananna peel during the Royal procession?)

Basically, I want to know if I can buy this product, strip out the humour, and have a "seriously typical" campaign setting?

[RaspK_FOG]

OK, to put things straight: HackMaster and the whole line of products are not "serious" products; they all present you with apparently AD&D-compliant rules that work on a parody basis. Good examples of such concepts are the 40+ fireball spells presented in the HM/PHB, the fact that stitching wounds up deals you 1/4 hit points per stitch (yes, the stitching neadle is on the weapon list, with a 0.25 hit point damage rating!), and, honestly, the whole book goes on like this...

If you want to play a fun-only game, HackMaster is good, but I would not appreciate anyone running Birthright games, where the High Priestess of the Gawd of War goes in battle, wielding her +15 HackMaster (yes, an artefact which appeared in HackMaster)! :(

[Birthright-L]

> For example, are the mechanics "sound 3.5" or are they more in

the vein of providing goofy effects for humourous situations (IE. What

happens when I slip on a bananna peel during the Royal procession?)

>

> Basically, I want to know if I can buy this product, strip out the

humour...



As I understand it Hackmaster is 1E D&D modified quite sanely but with a lot

of parody in jokes in terms/magic items etc.

[kgauck]

Friends, we all have a game system to play Birthright in. Unless HM did

something really stunning we are not going to abandon the systems we already

prefer. Rather the potential here lies in the ideas, insights, and

creativity that another pair of (collective) hands can bring to the setting.

If someone does a good piece on Ghoere, for instance, I can make sense in my

own terms what a +15 sword of terrible thwaking means.



After all, were I to take a look at another player`s PS of Ghoere, I would

already be doing some adjustments to fit my pre-concieved notions and my

prior decisions. Hackright is going to offer two kinds of potentials, a

spoof on our favorite setting and a chance for new ideas on things not

already settled.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

I agree with Kenneth here.

I want to thank D.M. Zwerg (aka Foundry Dwarf) for his (alright I'm assuming you are male) time in addressing this issue and his openess with it.

Would it be possible for Kenzer to insert some mention of the official BR fansite in the product?

We don't seem to be able to get any mention from Paizo and gosh they are 100% Official Dungeons and Dragons (insert sarcasm here).

[CMonkey]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Feb 13 2004, 10:39 AM
Would it be possible for Kenzer to insert some mention of the official BR fansite in the product?

You want an association with that product before you know what it is like? Given the controversy, maybe hang fire on that one...

CM.

[morgramen]

Good post Kenneth!

HM is 1E ey? That's no good. Ah well. I was hoping that it'd be 3.5 so that I could rip some ideas. Not sure I'll go in for the rulebook then, but I'll likely look at the Atlas 're producing for things such as you mention.

Besides, the subject matter deals with something that I suffer obsession with, so it will doubtless end up in my collection simply because of this. (How many PS-es and rulebooks does one man need anyway?? Somebody stop me!)

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "morgramen" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 2:21 PM





> How many PS-es and rulebooks does one man need anyway??

> Somebody stop me&#33;)



Some of us on the list planned an intervention, but we got caught up and

played a few realm turns. Your on your own in the meantime.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Elton Robb]

Originally posted by Foundry_Dwarf+Feb 12 2004, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Foundry_Dwarf @ Feb 12 2004, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-teloft@Feb 13 2004, 02:04 AM
monney talks.

+ we have new channels to recrute new players to the on-line comunity.
Actually, FWIHH Kenzer & Company got a license from WotC before the first HackMaster book came out to use anything from AD&D.

Then Kenzer & Company made the "mistake" of hiring a Birthright fanatic ;) :D [/b][/quote]
If I was hired by K&C to do HackRight, I would do the same thing this guy is doing. So I guess my overreaction was just an overreaction.

[Mark_Aurel]

Actually, HackMaster isn&#39;t that bad of a system, and it&#39;s a perfectly playable one. It certainly improves in many aspects upon the old AD&D framework, and a lot of its appeal also lies there, I think. The idea certainly started as a parody, and there are certainly funny elements to the books - but the game itself is a perfectly viable one, and should be treated as such. HackMaster&#39;s biggest problem is precisely that people treat it as more of a joke than it really is.

This looks like it&#39;ll be pretty good, all things considered.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, HackMaster isn&#39;t that bad of a system, and it&#39;s a perfectly playable one.
I know, Mark, that&#39;s the reason I bought the PHB, and looking forward to acquiring the DMG and MM for HackMaster. :P


It certainly improves in many aspects upon the old AD&D framework, and a lot of its appeal also lies there, I think. The idea certainly started as a parody, and there are certainly funny elements to the books - but the game itself is a perfectly viable one, and should be treated as such.
Also too true, and many things were really awfully good jokes on the AD&D game, but good game on their own as well. B)


HackMaster&#39;s biggest problem is precisely that people treat it as more of a joke than it really is.
You tell me&#33; I want to run a Garwheeze (don&#39;t remember if that&#39;s the correct spelling right now) game when I find a group that won&#39;t ruin it all... In fact, I know just too many people that make too much a joke out of it as you suggested it, and if I was a little picky on the matter earlier on there are people such as they to blame for it&#33;

[Foundry_Dwarf]

Originally posted by morgramen@Feb 13 2004, 07:46 AM
Now my question is (perhaps) loaded. How much "parody" is there in a typical Hackmaster system? Once this product hits the shelves, am I going to be able to get anything out of it (I&#39;m not interested in parady games at all.)
There is humor in it and some of the "tone" is of a parody (aka, the style, speech patterns, etc, are a parody of AD&D 1e), but the game itself is very sound ... basically AD&D with "crunchy bits" (also called "house rules") added to it. The system is more cohesive and logical than 1e or 2e (the skill system works better, etc). It pulls mostly from AD&D 1e, but also from 2e. I like to think of it as picking up where the Unearthed Arcana (1e) left off, but with the lessons gained from 2e.

Major differences from AD&D:
20 hit point kicker
Critical Hits (table/system)
Fumbles (table)
added stat: Honor (and an Honor point system)
Alignment System (Alignment Infraction Points)
Penetration of certain die rolls
Threshold of Pain (may have been in AD&D
Training/Schooling (was in AD&D but largely overlooked and abandoned in 2e IIRC)
Armor degradation
more rules, tables, etc.

To touch on a couple of them a tad more:
Penetration dice (or Penetrating die) indicates that if a die is rolled and the max shows (ex: a 6 on a d6), then the die is rolled again at -1 and added. A max on the reroll means you roll again at -1 on the die (not die -2, just -1) and add. This goes on until a max is not rolled. The net result is, on average, +0.5 to the die roll. Therefore, the average of a Penetrating d4 is 3, d6 yields 4, d8 5, and so on. This, along with critical hits, allows the chance, however slight, to kill any creature with a single blow.
The 20 hit point kicker makes it so a 1st level magic user is not taken out by one bite of a giant rat (unless it opens up a lot on damage). This is countered to a degree by Critical Hits and Penetration on damage rolls, but in general low level character will survive longer in a fight and non-fighter-types actually have a chance and can occassionally enter hand-to-hand without automatically being toast. It also allows normal humans to survive more than a single blow on average.
The down side is the change in the balance of power. Certain magic-user spells become much less deadly at low levels (Magic Missile for one) while others go from being useful to practically a necessity (Sleep). Cure Light Wound has changed as well (now a d4/level, penetrating) and thus much more useful. Another change in the balance of power is the shear devestation a bunch of formerly "lesser creatures" can now inflict (since they all have a 20hp kicker), especially on solitary creatures and small groups. Kobolds and Goblins are prime examples. 10 creatures now count for over 200 hit points&#33; (On average it would take a Hill Giant over 15 rounds to disable or kill 20 kobolds, possibly 20 rounds, whereas the 20 Kobolds will whack the Hill Giant in about 5 rounds).


The absolute best part about HackMaster from a 3e standpoint is mining it for ideas/systems. :D (Crit system, 20 hp kicker, penetrating dice, etc, all can be mined).
AD&D players have it easier yet since the systems are so close ... they can either just drop HackMaster systems in, or run HackMaster with less systems as a flavour of AD&D. (Monsters convert fairly easily as well ... just add/subtract the 20hp kicker&#33;) :)

[Foundry_Dwarf]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Feb 13 2004, 11:39 AM
Would it be possible for Kenzer to insert some mention of the official BR fansite in the product?

We don&#39;t seem to be able to get any mention from Paizo and gosh they are 100% Official Dungeons and Dragons (insert sarcasm here).
I can look into it, but I can not make any promises. The final decision is not mine to make. :(

On the other hand ...

1) Kenzer & Company has forums people can go to and post which CAN add to the publicity of this site. Probably the best way to do this is to put a blurb about Birthright D20 in your signature, then post on the HackMaster threads. Be aware when posting in the HackMaster area that some fans played D20 (generally 3e) and really don&#39;t like it much (others, like me, play both). This has a lot to do with people&#39;s system preferences (heck, HackMaster fans get jumped all over on primarily d20 sites all the time :rolleyes: ). The HackMaster forums tend to be much more tolerant of d20/3e people than many other sites I have seen are tolerant of HackMaster or AD&D people.

2) Post in the Kalamar area (remembering the blurb in the sig) and get into discussions of running kingdoms and politics. Kalamar is an officially licensed Dungeon & Dragons world (aka, Kenzer & Company paid for a license to put "Dungeons and Dragons" on their books and be officially sanctioned). This means that people on the Kalamar Boards may be interested in using the Birthright d20 *systems* in Kalamar even if they are not interested in the Birthright world. (Actually, I think your BR systems would work very well in Kalamar =-) Just be aware that some Kalamar fans are fairly fanatical about their preference in setting. In general they are much more torlerant than any other site I have seen (IIRC Birthright garners about as much praise and as warm a welcome over there as I have been receiving over here B) )

I am a big-time Birthright fan and love what you guys are doing. I will try to help you anyway I can but can not make any promises especially as other people are concerned. :)