I Was Wondering Who Was Brs Elminster Type

[marcum uth mather]

i was talking with some friends of mine who have some issuise of dragon mag and there were some articles about the top three worlds wizards meeting to talke and trade spells. for DL it was Rasilin, for GH it was Mordincine and for FG good old Elminster. Who is BR main man of magic? is it the magian or that elf who resides in lichgate? if so who is the most powerfull human wizard? could some one give me there 3ed states or storY?

[Doyle]

iles as the main man.. er elf. If you go by the

Gorgon multiclassed as wizard, then the Gorgon would be the second most

dangerous mage (like he needs to cast stoneskin!). Top dangerous is

theoretically the magian.



Doyle



-----Original Message-----

marcum uth mather wrote:

i was talking with some friends of mine who have some issuise of

dragon mag and there were some articles about the top three worlds

wizards meeting to talke and trade spells. for DL it was Rasilin, for GH

it was Mordincine and for FG good old Elminster. Who is BR main man of

magic? is it the magian or that elf who resides in lichgate? if so who

is the most powerfull human wizard? could some one give me there 3ed

states or storY?

[Birthright-L]

nly met were Elminster, Mordenkainen, and Dalamar the

elf (Master of the Black Robes).



The Magian is the most powerful caster on the Continent of Cerilia as far as

the Awnsheighlin go. The High Mage Aelies is 16th level and the most

powerful in the lands of Anuire as far as "good guys" go; but the Gorgon

himself is 16th level as a wizard and Rhuobhe is 15th level...I would place

my money on either of these over the High Mage in a battle.



Most people don`t know about her, or just forget her, but Llaeddra is the

Grand Mistress of the Kingdom of Lluabraight and she is an Arch-Mage (18th

level). Because she has ruled for over 100 years and has extensive Sources

(many of level 9 power) along with the majority of the Twelve Gems of

Arborea (minor artifact) I would honestly count her as the most powerful

Wizard in all of Cerilia...perhaps with a truthfully grudging first place to

the Magian.



Since she doesn`t like anyone though...and wouldn`t meet with anyone like

"the Three" in their meetings, I guess it still falls back to the High Mage

Aelies who would ever represent Cerilia. Unless you want to include an

Awnsheigh that is.





Tony





----Original Message Follows----

From: marcum uth mather <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>



marcum uth mather wrote:

i was talking with some friends of mine who have some issuise of

dragon mag and there were some articles about the top three worlds wizards

meeting to talke and trade spells. for DL it was Rasilin, for GH it was

Mordincine and for FG good old Elminster. Who is BR main man of magic? is

it the magian or that elf who resides in lichgate? if so who is the most

powerfull human wizard? could some one give me there 3ed states or storY?



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[Raesene Andu]

Hmm, I&#39;d have to say that the most dangerous magic user in Cerilia is not the Gorgon or the Magian, although both are very powerful, but rather a being that lives in southern Vosgaard.

[Magian]

br />


I would vote for the Silver Servant of Zoloskaya, though he may not be the

highest level he is an original Vos prior to the corruption of Azrai. He

was there at Deismaar and knows Rournil personally.



Popularity wise I think either Caine or Aelies would get it. The

chamberlain may even have a shot.



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[marcum uth mather]

ive done some quick clancing and i cant find stats for the silver servent or Aelies does any one have any more info please.

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "marcum uth mather" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:41 AM





> I`ve done some quick clancing and i cant find stats for the

> silver servent or Aelies does any one have any more info please.



Aelies is detailed in the Book of Magecraft. The Silver Servant is detailed

in the write-up for Zoloskaya in Tribes of the Heartless Waste.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

I think I&#39;d say Rhuobhe. Why, because he is an elf (thus immortal) and even though not documented there is no reason to beleive that he did not know personnaly the present human deities when they were only humans. He probably fought against Haelyn even before Deismaar.

Now as far as the original question goes and the council of mages - the only one mentioned in this thread so far who could conceivable attend would be Aelies - since he is the only one that is not an Awnshegh and is more "famous" and relatively more powerful than is Caine.

But I also put him at a severely lower arcane power level than the present members of the council due to the uniqueness of Cerilian arcane magic. On Cerilia he is as powerful as the others on their respective settings due to the rarity of arcane magic (and requirement of a bloodline or elven blood for true magic) but when put in the same room as the others he really doesn&#39;t measure up.

But Birthright isn&#39;t really about who can cast the biggest fireball after all is it? ;)

[geeman]

lly have the BR equivalent of Elminster (a merit of the

setting IMO.) There are a few possibilities, however.



I remember reading up a description of Elminster someplace (don`t recall

where) and he has several god-like powers. It seems to me this write up

was pre-ELH, so I don`t know if they would now be interpreted as simply 21+

level effects, but they struck me at the time as being definitely on the

demi-deity side of the power scale. It`s not much of a stretch to

interpret such powers as the non-BR equivalent of a bloodline, so aside

from the fact that only blooded characters can cast true magic in BR, a

scion is probably in order rather than a commoner. When it comes to which

character in the BR playbill fits into a similar power scale, however,

there really isn`t one. Candidates like Aelies or the Swan Mage are

actually rather low level. You have to go with one of the more divine

spellcasters like the Magian or the occasional reclusive elf to get

anywhere in the ballpark, and even then they probably come off like

Elminster`s kid brother/sister by comparison. Of course, several of the

immortal elves would probably qualify as being 60th level or so by now

given several millennia of practising The Art, but straight out of the

books as written there`s not a whole lot of characters that are of the 40+

level range.



Unless... you consider one of the humans elevated to godhood by

Deismaar. Rournil seems like the most likely Elminster equivalent given

his emphasis, role in the campaign world, etc. but one could certainly make

an argument for Avani. The other gods are proportionately less like

Elminster given their relationship to other character classes. Laerme does

occasionally involve herself with mortal activities and is probably the

third best candidate.



Thematically, probably the most apt non-deity (we think) character is

Caliedhe Dosiere, the Chamberlain of the Imperial City. He`s got a similar

"observer/documentor/narrator" kind of thing going on in addition to his

magical emphasis. He`s not very high level, of course, in his RoE write

up. Unless that`s merely his avatar....



Gary

[Magian]

it is a question of comparing levels because neither

Mordenkainen nor Dalamar compare to Elminster. (come to think of it neither

does Raistlin) It seems to me to be more of a representative of the

campaign world that is recognizable to players. Since Aelies (aka. High

Mage) is the only character with a novel written about him by Richard Baker

from the Birthright setting I`d say he is the most likely candidate, if the

Pages from the Mages articles kept going. However I`d still put my vote in

for the Silver Servant since his devotion to magic included the original god

and the new one who he was a herald for. Ideally he is the best

representative for magic aside from the Temple of Rilni but I don`t think we

was written up well enough so his presence in Cerilia is generally unknown.

Therefore I still think Aelies would be chosen.











>From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

>Reply-To: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

><BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

>To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

>Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] I Was Wondering Who Was Brs Elminster Type

> [2#1819]

>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:08:10 +0200

>

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1819

>

> irdeggman wrote:

> I think I`d say Rhuobhe. Why, because he is an elf (thus immortal) and

>even though not documented there is no reason to beleive that he did not

>know personnaly the present human deities when they were only humans. He

>probably fought against Haelyn even before Deismaar.

>

> Now as far as the original question goes and the council of mages - the

>only one mentioned in this thread so far who could conceivable attend would

>be Aelies - since he is the only one that is not an Awnshegh and is more

>"famous" and relatively more powerful than is Caine.

>

> But I also put him at a severely lower arcane power level than the

>present members of the council due to the uniqueness of Cerilian arcane

>magic. On Cerilia he is as powerful as the others on their respective

>settings due to the rarity of arcane magic (and requirement of a bloodline

>or elven blood for true magic) but when put in the same room as the others

>he really doesn`t measure up.

>

> But Birthright isn`t really about who can cast the biggest fireball after

>all is it? ;)

>

>

>

>

>

>



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[Ariadne]

Most powerful wizard? Between the awnsheglien: The Magian, no question.

And no awnsheglien? How about the female leader of the "college of sorcery" of the imperial city of Anuire? If I remember right, she is level 19...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Magian@Jul 23 2003, 05:29 AM
it is a question of comparing levels because neither Mordenkainen nor Dalamar compare to Elminster.
Errr... Elminster is a bit say overpowered compared to what he would be at his level, isn&#39;t he?

If some guys tend to bluster about overpowering characters, they should look at those horrible creations first... :P

Because in the 3.5 edition the magic system is really crippled, I would wonder, if Elminster can&#39;t cast any existing wizard spell as a spell-like ability at will... :D

[Osprey]

It stands to reason: in a high-fantasy, magic-rich campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, Elminster would outpower the premier mage of any other published setting. If he&#39;s the Big Guy of FR, think about his competition (say, Manshoon). If you actually want some stats, they published stats for Elminster, Mordenkain, Manshoon, and a few others in the back of the Epic Level Handbook.

Has anyone wondered what would happen to Cerilia with the Epic conversions and advancement? I&#39;ve considered it a lot, given the fact that straight conversions of awnsheigh like the Gorgon and Rhuobhe make them level 30+ epic characters and entitle them to epic feats that make them even scarier (as if that was necessary, right?).

For the most part, I&#39;m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.
-Osprey

[kgauck]

ge -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:38 PM



> For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes

> I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does

> everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes

> you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+

makes

> you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood

that.



I used to limit levels. I gave CR that more or less matched the party until

about 5th level. I topped CR around 5, except for climax encounters. This

put a drag on level advancement past 5th or 6th. I abandon this because too

much neat stuff take place in character development after a character level

of the 5-8 level range. In order to maintain a low magic level, I`ve

required spellcasters to take at least 50% non-spellcasting levels. I`m a

long way from Epic levels.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

3 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I

>wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does

>everyone gain xp slower in Birthright?



IMC, I found that about 1/4 to 1/3 the "standard" XP awards more

satisfactory and sensible than those of 3e. Actually, I give the same

amount of XP out as awards in non-BR settings too. The less manic pace of

levelling up characters makes play more "realistic" from both the DM and

player perspective.



>Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of

>individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers

>of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.



Personally, I think it was kind of a nod towards a more "realistic" setting

in which characters could be killed or were at risk of death more directly

than in other campaign settings. Using the standard D&D rules, however,

the only effective means of conveying such a theme is by making the

majority of characters low level.



Gary

[Eosin the Red]

n PBeM and Tabletop, I use the epic rules as they are laid out in the FRCS. This provides much less inflation of power but still allows for a Rhoubhe type character.



I belive I have him listed as a Ranger 5/ Foe hunter 5/ Mage 13. When you do it via the FRCS you do not end up with impossible Attack and AC pogressions. Skills stay reasonable and hit points are comparible to any other 20th level character.



I really like the BRCS with some of its wierd idiosyncrisies but the epic write-ups put the Gorgon on par with Sauron and we all know the only way to beat Sauron was with GM fiat.



I am using a very small amount of the Dieties book on salient abilities for both the Gorgon and the Serpent (a major player in my game).



Randy ~ Eosin











>

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1819

>

> Osprey wrote:

> It stands to reason: in a high-fantasy, magic-rich campaign setting like Forgotten Realms, Elminster would outpower the premier mage of any other published setting. If he`s the Big Guy of FR, think about his competition (say, Manshoon). If you actually want some stats, they published stats for Elminster, Mordenkain, Manshoon, and a few others in the back of the Epic Level Handbook.

>

> Has anyone wondered what would happen to Cerilia with the Epic conversions and advancement? I`ve considered it a lot, given the fact that straight conversions of awnsheigh like the Gorgon and Rhuobhe make them level 30+ epic characters and entitle them to epic feats that make them even scarier (as if that was necessary, right?).

>

> For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.

> -Osprey

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Eosin the Red]

evel 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.



Gary Relpied:

> Personally, I think it was kind of a nod towards a more "realistic" setting in which characters could be killed or were at risk of death more directly than in other campaign settings. Using the standard D&D rules, however, the only effective means of conveying such a theme is by making the majority of characters low level.





I find that most regents should be in the 5-7 level range. There is an un-noted change when we changed editions. Skills suddenly got figured in a radically different way. Under 2e with NWP - a 2nd level fighter with a 16 Int had more out of combat skill than a 10th level fighter who had a 12 Int. Only in combat was the difference "noticable" between a high or low level character. This allowed the designers some leeway with levels - Ghoere might be able to take the Mhor in personal combat but the Mhors military skills (from high Int and high skills overall) ensured that he was able to defend Mhoried well, even fending off the triple threat of Ghoere, Markazor, and the Five Peaks.



3e Changes all of that. Skills are now directly linked to level and the BRCS only uses ranks in a huge number of places - this really tilts the scale infavor of level. Carilon Alam always the butt of jokes now becomes even more pitiful at second level with a non-impressive INT.



The only way (IMO) to reconcile skill to combat ratio, was to raise the level of regents up between 5-7. This allows for some competency and even some impressive skills here and there. The problem in my mind now lies with the issue of relative levels - should Gavin remain 9th while Daeric is 7th? Should Harald Khorien remain simply 2nd or 3rd Level - remember that the rules on realm spells have also differed causing another disparity between relative levels. HK can no longer compete with Innis, even ignoring Taeghas and placing it into the hands of Avan, he just does not have the level to get the feats and skills he needs.



I fear that the Guide to Cerilia team will look at what exsisted and not the framework of that exsistace as they do their work. Rodg in 2E had more NWP and "skill" than Hierl Diem, Marlae, or Suris - I hope that the same can be said when the new guide comes out. It is somewhat ironic that inorder to keep the balance they need to change the levels and risk the venom of the Serpent.



Randy

[Birthright-L]

n all honesty there aren`t that many adventurers in

Cerilia...just like there weren`t that many in our world. Cerilia seems

more settled than other campaign worlds, though it does have some of the

most powerful baddies in any campaign I`ve ever seen.



It was also pointed out to me that anyone of any great power may be

"harvested" as it were by one of the more powerful Awnsheighlin. This made

a lot of sense to me...especially since the Gorgon is said to do just this

thing.



I see the rulers of Birthright having various levels of power based on their

influence. Darien Avan and all have their hands and minds doing a great

deal of work constantly and have plenty of power to back it up. No doubt

they gain xp for solving any number of problems and perhaps gain xp from the

amount of regency they gain. This is what I did back when I ran my own

campaign...give xp to a character based on the amount of regency they

collect. A small amount, but over time it will build up.



Regents like Carillon (sp?) Alam WISH they ruled a powerful realm, but in

reality they rarely ever see any of their plots succeed and so they hardly

ever collect any xp for them. His realm is weak also (comparing it to

others) and so he doesn`t collect very much regency xp.



The whole thing is good as far as I was concerned with 2nd Edition. The

newer game makes XP far too easy to come across, and in fact I`ve doubled

the amount of xp that has to be gained in my games while at the same time

only awarding just as much as the CR system allows for. Makes progression

much like it used to be at the lower levels; although the higher levels have

a lower xp requirement I just tone back the encounter CRs to award less xp

(or in some cases none at all).





Tony





----Original Message Follows----

From: Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>



At 07:38 PM 7/30/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>For the most part, I`m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I

>wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does

>everyone gain xp slower in Birthright?



IMC, I found that about 1/4 to 1/3 the "standard" XP awards more

satisfactory and sensible than those of 3e. Actually, I give the same

amount of XP out as awards in non-BR settings too. The less manic pace of

levelling up characters makes play more "realistic" from both the DM and

player perspective.



>Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of

>individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers

>of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.



Personally, I think it was kind of a nod towards a more "realistic" setting

in which characters could be killed or were at risk of death more directly

than in other campaign settings. Using the standard D&D rules, however,

the only effective means of conveying such a theme is by making the

majority of characters low level.



Gary



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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jul 30 2003, 06:38 PM
Has anyone wondered what would happen to Cerilia with the Epic conversions and advancement? I&#39;ve considered it a lot, given the fact that straight conversions of awnsheigh like the Gorgon and Rhuobhe make them level 30+ epic characters and entitle them to epic feats that make them even scarier (as if that was necessary, right?).

For the most part, I&#39;m glad the main setting is non-epic, but sometimes I wonder at the extraordinarily low levels of many NPC regents. Does everyone gain xp slower in Birthright? Low magic or not, level 10+ makes you a peer of the realm in terms of individual prowess, and level 15+ makes you one of the preeminent powers of Cerilia. I never quite understood that.
I&#39;ve nothing against epic level rules and epic level advancements for PC&#39;s or NPC&#39;s. Birthright is as such a campaign of low-level PC&#39;s and NPC&#39;s, but if the players advance to epic level (after years and years of gaming) I don&#39;t see a problem to do so.

IMC any Awnsheglien above 20th level uses epic level rules, the Serpent and the Gorgon even the abilities of "Quasi Deities" of the Deities and Demigods book. So if the really rare possibility occurs, that a PC reaches a level above 20th level, it would be unfair to say: "Hey, you&#39;re overpowered, take a new 1st level character" or "Hey, you&#39;re 20th level, there is NO level above that, sorry".


If you actually want some stats, they published stats for Elminster, Mordenkain, Manshoon, and a few others in the back of the Epic Level Handbook.
I have the stats. ;) I only would wonder, how they change them in the new 3.5 version, because magic is so much underpowered now. I think, they compare that somehow...

[Osprey]

Hmmm, where to begin?


I see the rulers of Birthright having various levels of power based on their influence. Darien Avan and all have their hands and minds doing a great
deal of work constantly and have plenty of power to back it up. No doubt
they gain xp for solving any number of problems and perhaps gain xp from the
amount of regency they gain. This is what I did back when I ran my own
campaign...give xp to a character based on the amount of regency they
collect. A small amount, but over time it will build up. (Birthright-L)

In my own campaign, I have no qualms about adjusting NPC levels to keep things balanced and interesting. Darien Avan ranks at least level 10-12, or higher depending how far into the game we&#39;ve gone, and where the PC&#39;s are at when they have to start dealing with him. I try to keep NPC&#39;s advancing based on how successful they are as rulers, and how much adventuring they do.

In the original BR game, it was assumed that regents would spend a great deal of time adventuring, and this would provide their main source of advancement, treasure, and magic items. In my own game, I think any decent ruler simply can&#39;t afford to go off adventuring too often if he doesn&#39;t want his realm to fall into disrepair due to neglect.

So I balanced out adventuring XP with XP awards based on good rulership. Any time a regent succeeds at a Domain Action (especially Rule, also Contest, Espionage, Create, and Realm Spell research), I give XP based on the base degree of difficulty. For example, a regent earns 100xp x new Holding level when they successfully rule a holding, and twice that (200 x new level) for ruling a Province (which is very difficult for most regents).

So far, I&#39;ve really liked the effects this has had, and it makes those regent feats (like Regent Focus, Master Administrator, etc.) really worthwhile.

However, xp based on regency? Given the power of RP (in domain actions or raising bloodline scores), isn&#39;t it already sufficient reward without xp thrown in?

I have no problem with higher-level campaigns, given that the ultimate bad guy (the Gorgon) is over level 30. If anyone really could face the Gorgon and win, they should be epic-level characters. On the other hand, anyone notice the DC of the Gorgon&#39;s death gaze in BRCS?&#33;? Without Death Ward, you are DEAD - no ifs, ands, or buts unless you roll a nat 20. Great, you get one more round to live&#33;

So my game does tend to involve faster advancement then what a lot of folks have described, but I&#39;m not a hardcore loyalist when it comes to honoring the levels and descriptions of NPC&#39;s as printed in the 2e BR game.

To each his own. :)

Osprey

[Morchad]

There isn&#39;t one (Going back to the original post). Thats what makes this a far superior campaign setting. The lowe magic and the decreased influence of individuals as opposed to nations. Much more cohesive and realistic. Anyway I remember reading somewhere (one of the gods and dietys suplements it included something about a priest trying to brign a god back to life by sacrificing artifacts to him in the 2nd edition) that Birthright was sealed of because of Desimar so you really cant go plane hopping like that. Although uit was kinda foggy cause some expansions and anventures there seem to be several planar beings and then there is always Adriala to screw things up even more.