Avanil vs Boeruine

[Shade]

At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
> Lord Shade wrote:
>
>>>Better Vassals? ;-)
>>>Taeghas and Brosengae were on Boeruines side during Michale Roeles
>>>ascension to the throne - they can change again sides. And as both are
>>>constantly on the brink of civil war Avan can be kept busy by this alone
>>>(if he has only Magician lieutenants and not good diplomats to send...)
>>>
>>I think Avanil has better vassals. Let`s look at it this way:
>>
>>Avanil Boeruine
>>------ --------
>>Taeghas = Talinie
>>PAI = Arien Borthein
>>WIT > NIT
>>Harald Khor = Arlen Innis
>>Mieres/AV
>>Brosengae/EM
>>As written Talinie and Taeghas are both pretty reliable and comparable in
>>size. Arlen Innis is higher level, but Harald Khorien has more
>>sources/bloodline and therefore more RP, so I count them as pretty much
>>equal. AB and PAI both kind of suck, as their bloodlines are small. WIT is
>>an awesomely powerful domain on its own (huge holdings and income,
>>4th-largest non-awnshegh bloodline in all of Anuire) and seems to be
>>extremely reliable, and clearly superior to NIT. On top of this advantage,
>>Avan has 2 unreliable vassals, Brosengae and Mieres, that at least for the
>>time being provide him with tribute and therefore a
>> bigger advantage over
>>Boeruine.
>>
>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
>Wasn´t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?

He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.

>>As for the Magician lieutenant issue, you are responding to a different
>>thread and I`ll rebut your point there.
>>
>>>Mieres could be cut off at any time the seadrake wishes and the governor
>>>does not seem overly trustworthy. Something interesting that was brought
>>>up in COG II: The temples of Eloele in Mieres (a vassal of Avan) could
>>>easily be used to discredit Avan as next emperor - after all the Emperor
>>>is the protector of Anuire, of which Haelyn is patron! And AVAN allows
>>>the temples of the goddess of thiefs prosper in his vassals lands? ;-)
>>>
>>You could make that point, but I doubt that who becomes the next Emperor of
>>Anuire is going to be decided by who has a vassal with a temple of Eloele
>>in his lands.
>>Besides, in many places in the books, the designers imply that there are
>>unwanted holdings in several realms, and the rulers have tried to get rid
>>of them and can`t. Just because a holding exists in a particular place
>>doesn`t mean a regent wants it there or is actively supporting it.
>>In PBeMs, IMHO DMs never do a good job of portraying the real consequences
>>of invading your own provinces and burning down holdings. I would think
>>such a horrible action would result in complete hatred from the populace,
>>if you burn down temples that they have been attending for years, or guilds
>>that employed them and all their neighbors. If such an action was really as
>>easy as PBeMs make it, no landed regent would ever have an unwanted holding
>>in his realm for longer
>>than 1 or 2 seasons. Why then do the published
>>realms have unwanted holdings in almost every other domain?
>>
>Because the rules do not prevent it and occupation and
>destruction/divestion is easier than several contests.

...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?

>>Case in point - do you think that because the Brotherhood of Khet or the
>>Society of the Serpent exist in a number of Khinasi kingdoms, the rulers
>>want them there or intentionally permit their existence? How about the
>>White Hand of Kriestal in Danigau, or the Mhor`s law holdings in Ghoere or
>>Gavin Tael`s holdings in Mhoried? Or the bandit guild in Berhagen? Or
>>Kalien`s holdings in Alamie and Medoere? There are many more examples.
>>
>I understand your point. Some Rjurik realms have to add to your list
>guild holdings of the White Witch, about which they are not even
>informed - while the holdings are in their own lands. That is impossible
>in a PBEM unless the DM is super-human and devious...
>
>However even the presence of such holdings could be used by Avan´s
>opponents to show that he has done nothing/not enough to get rid of
>them. Eloele is after all an enemy of Haelyn - even Rhobher Nicholair as
>a firm supporter of Avan would have a hard time arguing to do nothing
>against that temples. Not to act or not to succeed could be pointed out
>as a failure - of a person who wants to rule a whole empire, and can´t
>even bring law and order to his own vassals lands? ;-)

Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.

/Carl


__________________________________________________ ___
Gratis e-mail resten av livet på www.yahoo.se/mail
Busenkelt!

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:07 PM


>> Not to act or not to succeed could be pointed out as a failure
>> - of a person who wants to rule a whole empire, and can´t
>> even bring law and order to his own vassals lands? ;-)
>
> Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument
> be to you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most
> likely if you were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

[Shrug] Maybe, but this kind of thinking is very period and justified the
expulsion of Moors, Jews, suppression of ethnic minorities, attacks on
heritics from the Lollards to the Hussites to the wars of Religion.
Impolitic monoplies were revoked, merchants evicted, and trade patterns
altered. All of this for reason of state. So, do Cerilian rulers opperate
on the basis that a good ruler has eliminated unfriendly holdings? I
certainly think so. IMO, the reason the map doesn`t look that way is
because its really difficult to actually pull something like that off.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:53 AM


> As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
> Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.

I had the same experience when I used that as well. Of course it did create
a certain reality (as opposed to wax museum) quality.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Stephen Starfox wrote:

>As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
>Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.
>/Carl
>
Then get the players involved - either side of the war could send them a
request to declare for them and their just cause... Or suffer the
consequences to be counted among the enemy.

Countrys like Ghoere can use the absence of two of the largest armies of
Anuire who are busy fighting themselfs to try to invade a neighbour.

The realms like Five Peaks, Rhuobhe, Spiderfell, Thuazor and so on could
use the time to raid their neighbours, knowing that the major armies are
occupied.

Prices to muster armies, muster mercenaries, buy stuff of all sorts
quickly rise to enourmos hights due to the demand in the war...
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Stephen Starfox wrote:

>As a result of this thread, I`started a war between the (NPC) realms of
>Avanil and Boeruine IMC - and none of the players really care how it goes.
>/Carl
>
Then get the players involved - either side of the war could send them a
request to declare for them and their just cause... Or suffer the
consequences to be counted among the enemy.

Countrys like Ghoere can use the absence of two of the largest armies of
Anuire who are busy fighting themselfs to try to invade a neighbour.

The realms like Five Peaks, Rhuobhe, Spiderfell, Thuazor and so on could
use the time to raid their neighbours, knowing that the major armies are
occupied.

Prices to muster armies, muster mercenaries, buy stuff of all sorts
quickly rise to enourmos hights due to the demand in the war...
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:15 -0600, Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:

>At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>> Lord Shade wrote:
...
>>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
>>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
>>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
>>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
>>Wasn´t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
>>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?
>
>He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
>For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.

Torele Anviras is loyal to Talinie, and Talinie is the vassal of Boeruine.
In my opinion, if another major conflict would arise in which Talinies
troops would be involved, as in the book War, then Anviras would be with them.

Mhistecai? I remember to have read that he sees Mieres as HIS realm - that
his prime reason for not taking it by force is that he wants not to damage
what he sees as his property and his army... In my opinion he is more likely
to start a civil war to gain the rulership of some provinces of Mieres, as
soon as a major war starts which distracts Avanil.

>...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
>50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?

Because they are NPC´s in a world which has more difficulties than the
domain rules show. They work even with their opponents, because sometimes
they have no choice. They are too occupied with other affairs so that they
can´t care about all holdings in their lands. Because they are noble knights
and lords who do not bother with the affaris of dirty money earned by filthy
merchants - all that is sadly very often ignored by players.

>Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
>you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
>were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

It would be convincing for most priests of Haelyn - law and order are the
fundaments of empire. And it would be logical - someone who can´t keep his
own house clean, will likely be unable to do it on a larger scale. And it
certainly would be one good argument for the Imperial Chamberlain - after
500 years he certainly has used up dozens of arguments why he has not
finally crowned the next emperor.
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:15 -0600, Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:

>At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>> Lord Shade wrote:
...
>>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
>>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
>>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
>>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
>>Wasn´t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
>>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?
>
>He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
>For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.

Torele Anviras is loyal to Talinie, and Talinie is the vassal of Boeruine.
In my opinion, if another major conflict would arise in which Talinies
troops would be involved, as in the book War, then Anviras would be with them.

Mhistecai? I remember to have read that he sees Mieres as HIS realm - that
his prime reason for not taking it by force is that he wants not to damage
what he sees as his property and his army... In my opinion he is more likely
to start a civil war to gain the rulership of some provinces of Mieres, as
soon as a major war starts which distracts Avanil.

>...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
>50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?

Because they are NPC´s in a world which has more difficulties than the
domain rules show. They work even with their opponents, because sometimes
they have no choice. They are too occupied with other affairs so that they
can´t care about all holdings in their lands. Because they are noble knights
and lords who do not bother with the affaris of dirty money earned by filthy
merchants - all that is sadly very often ignored by players.

>Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
>you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
>were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.

It would be convincing for most priests of Haelyn - law and order are the
fundaments of empire. And it would be logical - someone who can´t keep his
own house clean, will likely be unable to do it on a larger scale. And it
certainly would be one good argument for the Imperial Chamberlain - after
500 years he certainly has used up dozens of arguments why he has not
finally crowned the next emperor.
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Shade]

At 09:49 AM 2/20/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:07:15 -0600, Lord Shade <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
wrote:
>
>>At 07:28 PM 2/19/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>>> Lord Shade wrote:
>...
>>>When adding Talinie, you forget Torele Anviras who is loyal to Talinie
>>>and could be counted to help when it would be needed.
>>>Also the Hidden Temple of Cuiraceen in strong in Boeruine and I would
>>>add them as allies to Boeruine if it comes to an Avan-Boeruine war.
>>>Wasn´t somewhere mentinoed that Aeric Boeruine counts himself as member
>>>of that temple while being the liege lord of the NIT?
>>
>>He`s loyal to Talinie. Would he help Boeruine push for the Imperial City?
>>For that matter, Mhistecai would help defend Mieres too if it was invaded.
>
>Torele Anviras is loyal to Talinie, and Talinie is the vassal of Boeruine.
>In my opinion, if another major conflict would arise in which Talinies
>troops would be involved, as in the book War, then Anviras would be with
them.

Ruins of Empire, p. 23: "Talinie has declared Boeruine the rightful ruler
of Avanil, but commits no troops or gold to the Archduke`s cause." I
wouldn`t call that a great vassal, would you? I didn`t realize that at
first, I would actually now revise my estimate of Talinie downward, so that
Taeghas > Talinie.

btw, even if you want to count TA as a vassal of Talinie, Taeghas has his
own vassal guilder, so that evens out again. Added to Darien Avan`s 3
vassal guilds, that makes a total of 4 on the Avanese side.

>Mhistecai? I remember to have read that he sees Mieres as HIS realm - that
>his prime reason for not taking it by force is that he wants not to damage
>what he sees as his property and his army... In my opinion he is more likely
>to start a civil war to gain the rulership of some provinces of Mieres, as
>soon as a major war starts which distracts Avanil.

I think Mhistecai would defend Mieres if Boeruine forces invaded. p.16 does
indicate that Vaumel and Mhistecai sometimes work together.



>>...that`s exactly my point. If destruction is so much easier, why do nearly
>>50% of realms allow unwanted holdings to exist within their borders?
>
>Because they are NPC´s in a world which has more difficulties than the
>domain rules show. They work even with their opponents, because sometimes
>they have no choice. They are too occupied with other affairs so that they
>can´t care about all holdings in their lands. Because they are noble knights
>and lords who do not bother with the affaris of dirty money earned by filthy
>merchants - all that is sadly very often ignored by players.

Okay good, in that case it seems that you and I actually agree here. I also
think that it should be much harder to invade your own provinces than the
domain rules indicate.

>>Yeah, but if you were a regent, how convincing would that argument be to
>>you? Sure you can use it for political ammunition, but most likely if you
>>were neutral you would see that BS for what it is.
>
>It would be convincing for most priests of Haelyn - law and order are the
>fundaments of empire. And it would be logical - someone who can´t keep his
>own house clean, will likely be unable to do it on a larger scale. And it
>certainly would be one good argument for the Imperial Chamberlain - after
>500 years he certainly has used up dozens of arguments why he has not
>finally crowned the next emperor.
>bye
>Michael Romes

In the end, do you think the word of the Chamberlain matters that much? By
law, does the Chamberlain crown the Emperor? The reason he has influence is
because things are pretty balanced at the moment, with no contender having
a clear edge. If one contender was able to defeat the others, would the
Chamberlain be able to stop him from becoming Emperor? The first Anuirean
Empire was created by force, what makes you think the second won`t be?

History and realpolitik both show that in the end, the guy with the bigger
guns wins.

A good example will be if the US proceeds with a war against Iraq, despite
the *political* (meaning words) objections of 2 of its close allies, France
and Germany.

Now if France and Germany had the guns to back up their position, and said
that they wouldn`t tolerate an invasion of Iraq, the US would soften its
tone.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Beruin]

Lord Shade wrote:
>>History and realpolitik both show that in the end, the guy with the bigger
guns wins.<<

I disagree. RW examples: Russians in Afghanistan, Americans in Vietnam, the American independence, Spain vs. Netherlands, the Armada, Napoleon, the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Persian invasion of Greece, the Persian defence against Alexander, Gandhi.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christoph Tiemann" <tiemach@UNI-MUENSTER.DE>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:23 PM


Lord Shade wrote:
>>History and realpolitik both show that in the end, the guy with the bigger
guns wins.<<

I disagree. RW examples: Russians in Afghanistan, Americans in Vietnam, the
American independence, Spain vs. Netherlands, the Armada, Napoleon, the Fall
of the Roman Empire, the Persian invasion of Greece, the Persian defence
against Alexander, Gandhi.

The examples above are just complicated examples of the above rule. If we
understand the bigger battalions (to refer directly to Voltaire`s comment)
as meaning an infrastrcuture to wage war, and not just the bigger battalions
themselves we find that they are in fact still examples of the rule. The
Soviets fails in Afganistan for the same reason they were unable to hold on
to eastern Europe, her system was collapsing. The Americans were unwilling
to win in Vietnam for fear that actually invading N.Vietnam would provoke a
nuclear responce. England was fighting France, Spain, and Holland, as well
as facing a hostile Russia and Germany, not just the Americans. Napoleon
likewise won until he faced all of his enemies at once. The Romans suffered
from economic decay, climate change, social problems, as well as mass
migrations. The Persians won while they had the greater numbers, but supply
problems constantly compelled them to reduce their force strength. The
Greeks employed heavy infantry, the Persians light infantry. The Greeks
certainly had the heavier battalions. When Alexander is considered we must
recall both the heavier Greek formations, improved by Philip as well as the
ability (force multiplier) of Alexander himself. Ghandi won a political,
not a military victory against a power exhausted from a pair of world wars.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Shade]

At 04:23 AM 2/21/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Lord Shade wrote:
>>>History and realpolitik both show that in the end, the guy with the bigger
>guns wins.<<
>
>I disagree. RW examples: Russians in Afghanistan,

The Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan because their economy could no longer
afford the drain on resources from the war combined with an arms race with
the US. They didn`t pull out because of political pressure from other
countries. Afghanistan was a fundamentally military conflict, even though
the forces used were asymmetrical. The Imperial Chamberlain protesting
Avanil`s seizure of the Imperial City would not be a military conflict
(assuming realms like Boeruine and Ghoere are already vanquished, which was
my assumption).



Americans in Vietnam,

This war was poorly executed from the beginning. Ultimately domestic
political pressure unraveled the US war effort. The BR analogy would be
Avanese citizens protesting their liege`s capture of the Imperial City. I
think this is so unlikely as to be nearly impossible - Ruins of Empire
makes several references of the people`s loyalty to Darien Avan, even
saying that rogues believe their lord will be the next Emperor.

the American independence,

??? This was a military contest and ultimately the revolutionary forces
proved superior. I fail to see why this is a counterexample.

Spain vs. Netherlands,

not familiar with this one.


the Armada,

Again a military conflict. Superior tactics won the day for the British.

Napoleon,

don`t know the details of his ultimate defeats and exiles.

the Fall of the Roman Empire,

This was primarily due to institutional decay. It can`t be compared to the
Avanil v Dosiere situation (unless Avan became Emperor, and then the
Anuireans got fat and lazy).

the Persian invasion of Greece, the Persian defence against Alexander,

not familiar with the details here.

Gandhi.
>

This one I will grant you. However, while Dosiere is respected, he doesn`t
have the kind of following Gandhi had. Gandhi was able to capture people`s
imaginations and use the spirituality of Hinduism as a means of peaceful
revolution. Does it say anywhere in Ruins of Empire that the common
Anuirean holds Dosiere in high regard, and would join with him if he
decided to fast in protest of Anuirean civil wars?

I think Gandhi and Dosiere are fundamentally different characters.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Green Knight]

> The Persians won while they had the greater numbers, but supply
> problems constantly compelled them to reduce their force strength. The
> Greeks employed heavy infantry, the Persians light infantry. The Greeks
> certainly had the heavier battalions. When Alexander is considered we must
> recall both the heavier Greek formations, improved by Philip as well as the
> ability (force multiplier) of Alexander himself.

The truth of this is somewhat dubious.

The persians may have had supply problems, but then everybody (including Alexander) did. Indeed, the persian empire had a very good logistical system, including the use of roads and major waterways.

During several battles of Alexanders campaign agains the Empire, did the persians employe more greeks than did Alexander, and consequently had the "heavier" army. They also outnumbered Alexander in every major battle.

While it would still claim that Alexander had the bigger gun by virtue of the quality of his troops and his abilities as a commander, I must say I disagree...

The persians had by far the bigger gun (and knew how to use it), but alexander had had a more accurate one (and were the better shooter) :-)

Bjørn

Cheers
Bjørn

-------------------------------------------------
WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no
-------------------------------------------------

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Green Knight" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:13 AM


> The persians may have had supply problems, but then everybody
> (including Alexander) did. Indeed, the persian empire had a very
> good logistical system, including the use of roads and major waterways.

Alexander did not have to send the majority of his army home because of
supply considerations. The Persians brought the huge army to sack Athens,
but could not keep the army supplied without the fleet, lost at Salamis.
Hence, Mardonius was left at Platea with only a small fraction of the army.

> During several battles of Alexanders campaign agains the Empire,
> did the persians employe more greeks than did Alexander, and
> consequently had the "heavier" army. They also outnumbered
> Alexander in every major battle.

These were mercenaries, never to be regarded as the same quality or devotion
as a good native troops. Arguing that Alexander had more accurate guns to
Persia`s bigger guns is a semantic disagreement. You want to seperate
bigger from better, but I don`t think that the simple aphorism (either the
list-poster`s version, or Voltaire`s) was meant to address that level of
complexity. Quality does typically defeat quantity, but it is possible to
quantify both quality and quantity in one number based on casualties
inflicted. Single sentence aphorisms aren`t meant to be quibbled with, they
are broad statements.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Dantain]

Originally posted by Beruin
I disagree. RW examples: Russians in Afghanistan, Americans in Vietnam, the American independence, Spain vs. Netherlands, the Armada, Napoleon, the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Persian invasion of Greece, the Persian defence against Alexander, Gandhi.


List of times strength won over other:
Asyria
Egypt (first and second dynasties)
Alexander the Great
Rome's rise to prominace
Visgoth and Vandals (both were at better fighting condition than the Roman legions that opposed them)
Charlmagne
Viking Raids
William the Conquerer
First half of the one hundred years war
English Civil War
Mexican American War
Spanish American War
World War I (The Germans were tired and outnumbered (though in a few weeks things might have been diffrent)
World War II Both phases (the rise of Nazism and Fascism and the fall)
Korean War
Desert Storm (the gulf war)
Somilian Action

And thats off the top of my head, histroy is made by the winners not the losers. There are instances where various other items in a war has caused the apparntly weaker side to win, but these are greatly outdone by the number of times the stronger side has won.

[Azrai]

Originally posted by Shade
Now if France and Germany had the guns to back up their position, and said
that they wouldn`t tolerate an invasion of Iraq, the US would soften its
tone.


Huh, huh ?

[Dantain]

Basically, he is saying if France and Germany was willing to back up their desire for peace with threats of war, America would back down, I think that would't be the case but well *shrugs*

[Birthright-L]

At 05:58 PM 3/7/2003 +0100, Dantain wrote:

>Basically, he is saying if France and Germany was willing to back up their
>desire for peace with threats of war, America would back down, I think
>that would`t be the case but well *shrugs*

I don`t usually step in because the subject of a thread drifts, but this
one seems doomed to an inevitable off-topic flame war, so let`s please not
go down this particular route. If anyone would like to continue discussing
the subject here are a couple of sites where it would be more appropriate:

Stop the War Machine
Anti-war lapel pins being sold to raise money for anti-war movement.
www.peacepins.com

Support the Iraq War
Moral Clarity on the War, from Patriots for the Defense of America
defenseofamerica.org

I haven`t fully explored either of them, but there are links on those sites
that I`m sure will eventually lead to a message board someplace....

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion,
Gary
Birthright-l moderator

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

I get enough of real life in real life....don`t need it here too. This
thread is called: "Avanil vs. Boeruine" after all.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Azrai <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1365

Azrai wrote:

Originally posted by Shade
Now if France and Germany had the guns to back up their position, and said
that they wouldn`t tolerate an invasion of Iraq, the US would soften its
tone.


Huh, huh ?

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.


__________________________________________________ _______________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Birthright-L (tony)

I get enough of real life in real life....don`t need it here too. This thread is called: "Avanil vs. Boeruine" after all.

I agree with that. This thread begins to be REALLY OFF-TOPIC!!!

[marcum uth mather]

so any way how is your campain going with your players? are thay interested yet?

[Shade]

My campaign is going well! We`re currently in the winter of 553 MR (Turn
12). The players have finally managed to establish some degree of stability
on Caelcorwynn Island, and are dealing with a number of issues at home,
including a plague, Ghaellie Sidhe activity in the Erebannien, recovery
from Spider attacks, and blackmail/intrigues. Ghoere has embarked on a
large-scale military buildup, Diemed now rules 2 of the 3 provinces in
Medoere, and one of the PCs allies (a former regent) is raising hell on
Mieres, creating trouble between the PCs and Avanil.

They have their hands full :)

At 05:04 PM 3/13/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1365
>
> marcum uth mather wrote:
> so any way how is your campain going with your players? are thay
interested yet?
>
>************************************************** **************************
>The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
>Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
>To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
>

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.