Brecht vs Spain

[Solmyr]

I`ve always been wondering why Brechtur is compared to Renaissance Spain
in the d20 BR releases. Spain was a centralized, world-spanning empire
that relied on colonization and exploitation of native populations for
its wealth. If the only basis for the comparison is its reliance naval
trade, then Brechtur could be compared to a lot of other cultures as
well. IMO a far more apt comparison could be made to the trading cities
of northern Germany, especially the Hanseatic League - reliance on
trade, naval presence, and semi-republican governments all seem to be a
good example of what Brechtur is.

--

Solmyr of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/
The Archmage`s Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/
"War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left."

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Solmyr wrote:

>I`ve always been wondering why Brechtur is compared to Renaissance Spain
>in the d20 BR releases. Spain was a centralized, world-spanning empire
>that relied on colonization and exploitation of native populations for
>its wealth. If the only basis for the comparison is its reliance naval
>trade, then Brechtur could be compared to a lot of other cultures as
>well. IMO a far more apt comparison could be made to the trading cities
>of northern Germany, especially the Hanseatic League - reliance on
>trade, naval presence, and semi-republican governments all seem to be a
>good example of what Brechtur is.
>
Brechtür ;-)
The more comparisons, the wider the range what the DM and the players
can imagine their own campaign to be.
Brechtür: Ancient Spain, the Hanseatic League, the Dutch Westindian
company - I would even erase Spain, as it does not fit in the sense that
the otheres are more naval powers than anything else. Spain had also a
landbased empire.
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Solmyr]

Michael Romes wrote:
>
> Brechtür ;-)

Yeah, yeah :)

> The more comparisons, the wider the range what the DM and the players
> can imagine their own campaign to be.
> Brechtür: Ancient Spain, the Hanseatic League, the Dutch Westindian
> company - I would even erase Spain, as it does not fit in the sense that
> the otheres are more naval powers than anything else. Spain had also a
> landbased empire.

I include the Dutch in the northern German mercantile culture (*ducks
stones thrown by any resident Dutch*). And certainly, they are a more
apt comparison than Spain (ancient or Renaissance). For one,
Rensaissance Spain had little commercial spirit of its own, it relied on
foreign merchants (Genoese, Dutch, Flemish) to conduct its trade. That`s
why the Low Countries were important to it. I`m not sure where the
ancient Spain comparison comes from, either.

--

Solmyr of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/
The Archmage`s Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/
"War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left."

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Solmyr wrote:

>Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>Brechtür ;-)
>>
>Yeah, yeah :)
>
>>The more comparisons, the wider the range what the DM and the players
>>can imagine their own campaign to be.
>>Brechtür: Ancient Spain, the Hanseatic League, the Dutch Westindian
>>company - I would even erase Spain, as it does not fit in the sense that
>>the otheres are more naval powers than anything else. Spain had also a
>>landbased empire.
>>
>I include the Dutch in the northern German mercantile culture (*ducks
>stones thrown by any resident Dutch*).
>
Mmmmh, why do you expect only the Dutch to throw stone? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

Solmyr wrote:

>Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>Brechtür ;-)
>>
>Yeah, yeah :)
>
>>The more comparisons, the wider the range what the DM and the players
>>can imagine their own campaign to be.
>>Brechtür: Ancient Spain, the Hanseatic League, the Dutch Westindian
>>company - I would even erase Spain, as it does not fit in the sense that
>>the otheres are more naval powers than anything else. Spain had also a
>>landbased empire.
>>
>I include the Dutch in the northern German mercantile culture (*ducks
>stones thrown by any resident Dutch*).
>
Mmmmh, why do you expect only the Dutch to throw stone? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Azrai]

Brechtür was planned as a German setting. This could e.g. be derived by taking a look at the german names and german symbols. In the foreword, Brecht was termed as "german guys".

The designers already said that Brecht was meant as some kind of german culture. However, some things are wrong, actually Brecht is not far away from spain.....

[Solmyr]

Azrai wrote:
>
> Brechtür was planned as a German setting. This could e.g. be derived by taking a look at the german names and german symbols. In the foreword, Brecht was termed as "german guys".
>
> The designers already said that Brecht was meant as some kind of german culture. However, some things are wrong, actually Brecht is not far away from spain.....
>
How is it anything like Spain?

--

Solmyr of the Azure Star
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
World of Enothril website - http://enothril.topcities.com/
The Archmage`s Tower - http://www.geocities.com/solmyr.geo/
"War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left."

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Green Knight]

Solmyr of the Azure Star wrote:

>How is it anything like Spain?

Well, there is the fencing part, which is very Spanish.

I guess you could also draw a parallel to the "reconquista" as well; the
Brechts have lost many of their realms to Vos, awnsheghlien and such -
much could be made out of them reclaiming these areas.

Then there is the Spaniards being great seafarers and explorers

Otherwise, it`s more Hanseatic League/Dutch than Spanish (just remember
that the Dutch had very close ties with Spain for a long period of
time).

Just a few thoughts...

Cheers
Bjørn

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, [iso-8859-1] Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd wrote:
> Otherwise, it`s more Hanseatic League/Dutch than Spanish (just remember
> that the Dutch had very close ties with Spain for a long period of
> time).

So did the Germans (aka Holy Roman Empire), during about the same times,
and for the same reasons. It`s hard to divide them up sometimes.
Listing the Brechts as parallel to the Spanish is ok, as long as we
specify which period Spanish; roughly Ferdinand and Isablella, Charles V,
and Phillip II (the early Spanish Hapsburgs) is the appropriate time
period.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Lord Grave]

> I`ve always been wondering why Brechtur is compared to
> Renaissance Spain in the d20 BR releases. Spain was a
> centralized, world-spanning empire that relied on
> colonization and exploitation of native populations for its
> wealth. If the only basis for the comparison is its reliance
> naval trade, then Brechtur could be compared to a lot of
> other cultures as well. IMO a far more apt comparison could
> be made to the trading cities of northern Germany, especially
> the Hanseatic League - reliance on trade, naval presence, and
> semi-republican governments all seem to be a good example of
> what Brechtur is.
>

You can`t compare Brechtur with one centralized realm because Brechtur
is made of many totally independant realms. Anuire is much more like
Spain. I agree that Brechtur can be compared to Henseistic League: they
have similar language and rely on trade.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[DanMcSorley]

You could compare it to pre-unification Spain. Before there was 'Spain', there was Aragon and Castile, but before that, there were a couple of dozen little kingdoms, duchies, and such, some of which were Moorish.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 3:30 PM

> You can`t compare Brechtur with one centralized realm because Brechtur
> is made of many totally independant realms. Anuire is much more like
> Spain. I agree that Brechtur can be compared to Henseistic League: they
> have similar language and rely on trade.

Yet, Spain was hardly a centralized realm (and would not even be so in
Iberia until the Bourbons replaced the Habsburgs). The Spanish Empire was
composed of a multiplicity of crowns, including Castile, Aragon, Burgundy,
Naples, Lombardy, as well as having conquered realms in Granada, Mexico, and
Peru. Each had its own interests, its own political wants and needs, and
this created an internal conflict that eventually threatened to break the
whole empire apart. In many ways (especially when we also consider Spain in
Germany) the so called Spanish Empire more resembles a coallition of crowns,
and not a unified empire.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[ConjurerDragon]

DanMcSorley wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1313
>
> DanMcSorley wrote:
> You could compare it to pre-unification Spain. Before there was `Spain`, there was Aragon and Castile, but before that, there were a couple of dozen little kingdoms, duchies, and such, some of which were Moorish.
>
Mmmh, thinking of the movie "El Cid" with Sophia Loren, I remember
Navarra, Aragon, Kastilien (german way to write the names, I don´t know
the english).
bye
Michael Romes

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Satanta]

i think that the brecht are definitly very german, germany of the middle ages wasnt very unified much like brechtur, but they do have aspects which are comparable to the spanish. but they arnt really either . the brechts arnt a carbone copy of any real world race, but if you try to explain them in real world terms id say their largely germanic with some spanish flavour. much like the rjurick are very scandanavian they also got a heavy celtic influence (such as the druids)