Gunpowder

[Arsulon]

One last thing: has anyone tried out BR with gunpowder available? That is to say, primitive weapons on the order of Warhammer (arquebus', blunderbuss' and the like.) Better yet, has anyone done any work toward creating a battle card formation utilizing arquebus or muskets?

[Ariadne]

No! IMO gunpowder kills much of fantasy. Naturally FR must have such a thing (it has everything), but in BR it shouldn't be allowed. Gunpowder has a great part of unballancing the game...

By the way: Imagine: You kill the Gorgon with a pump-gun...

[ConjurerDragon]

Arsulon wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1163
>Arsulon wrote:
> One last thing: has anyone tried out BR with gunpowder available? That is to say, primitive weapons on the order of Warhammer (arquebus`, blunderbuss` and the like.) Better yet, has anyone done any work toward creating a battle card formation utilizing arquebus or muskets?
>
There has been gunpowder in Cerilia for Birthright mentioned in one
Dragon Magazine - I don´t remember the number but it was on the CD-ROM
that included magazine 1 to 250. There old ships of Anuire and the
invention of "dragons" = crude cannons were described.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Arsulon wrote:
> One last thing: has anyone tried out BR with gunpowder available?
> That is to say, primitive weapons on the order of Warhammer
> (arquebus`, blunderbuss` and the like.) Better yet, has anyone done
> any work toward creating a battle card formation utilizing arquebus or
> muskets?

Yes, harquebuses (harquebi?) and early mortar-type cannons.

Harquebuses won`t be much more effective than regular archers, because
they`re slower and have less effective range. You have to get up to
almost matchlock level tech plus countermarching tactics for them to
overtake bows and crossbows, IMO.

Cannon act like the `artillery` card in battle, but I think the speed
should increase when they`re used for long-term sieges, maybe to an order
of weeks instead of months. They`d have to be monstrously expensive, and
slow in overland travel.

By the time I got around to developing this kind of thing I`d given up on
warcards, so I didn`t make any up. Sorry.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

Actually, I think BR can have a bit of a gunpowder-like substance... I
called it "death powder" or something of the sort... I also decided that
Real World gunpowder, and FR smokepowder would have... bad effects if used
on Aebrynnis... As in, explode quite violently, at the least taking off a
limb or two...

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[ConjurerDragon]

And I finally found the article:
It´s in Dragon Magazine 232
"Weapons of the Waves" by Rich Baker
about old cerilian ships, new naval weapons (dragon, bombard) and the
invention of gunpowder... :-)
bye
Michael Romes
***********
William Bolitho wrote:

> Actually, I think BR can have a bit of a gunpowder-like substance... I
> called it "death powder" or something of the sort... I also decided that
> Real World gunpowder, and FR smokepowder would have... bad effects if
> used
> on Aebrynnis... As in, explode quite violently, at the least taking off a
> limb or two...
>
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[Arsulon]

Ariadne:
I understand where you're coming from with your suggestion that gunpwder weapons runs counter to the spirit of heroic fantasy; typically, the counter-arguement is to point out it's no less heroic to have a hole blown in your chest than it is to have a yard of iron rammed through your stomach. Personally, I think it depends on the tone of the fantasy campaign. For me, it seems odd to have a renaissance culture with no gunpowder: not bizarre, unforgivable or umpossible, just a little odd.
As for game balance, Daniel has rightly pointed out that gunpowder weapons (especially in the high renaissance) would be hideously expensive and innacurate. The key to balance, then, would be to use gunpowder in its proper renaissance role: as fuel for siege weapons and as the playthings for nobles.
Daniel:
Excellent points. Gunpowder is not the panacea for military conflict in the renaissance. Primitive longarms like the arquebus are expensive, slow and innacurate as hell; in fact, at the nadir of Washington's fortunes in the American War of Independence, Thomas Jefferson suggested his troops start using longbows as they were cheaper, more accurate and (in trained hands) had a higher rate of fire. I like your idea about "exoticizing" gunpowder to fit a fantasy world: why not say its some kind of alchemical substance that's magical and/or highly volatile and unreliable?
Michael:
Thanks very, very much for directing me towards the specific Dragon issue with the guns in it. I get the impression that gunpowder in Cerilia is an older, nigh-forgotten product of the Adurian empires. That certainly paralells our history: the Chinese invented the stuff but only half-heartedly applied it in warfare, practically ignoring it sometimes (depending on the regime.)

[Birthright-L]

Hmm... Actually, if I remember correctly... In FR, smokepowder is not
something many people want used... Mostly the mages... Since smokepowder is
a component in a few spells, and item creations... Which is why, when
someone uses smokepowder, he sort of gets a bad look from the group
wizard...

Perhaps in BR, something of the same could be true? Perhaps smokepowder is a
key ingrediant in creating certain Realm Spell effects? Or Battle Spell
effects (i.e. a battle spell version of Fireball)?

Anyway, just adding my comments... Ignore them if you wish...

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Arsulon

Ariadne:
I understand where you're coming from with your suggestion that gunpwder weapons runs counter to the spirit of heroic fantasy; typically, the counter-arguement is to point out it's no less heroic to have a hole blown in your chest than it is to have a yard of iron rammed through your stomach. [...]
IMO it is actually less heroic to use guns and not piercing, slashing or bludgeoning weapons. See, with a gun you can hit somebody on a great distance (greater than a bow) and cause huge damage. It might be a weapon for mages (they have even more power then), but to fight somebody face to face is the only challenge for a fighter...


Off topic: Merry Christmas to all BR-forum users!!!

[Arsulon]

Ariadne:
Well, you're certainly correct about the range advantage afforded by more advanced firearms: battle from the 18th century onward forces a redefinition of heroism (i.e. holding an advancing line while under fire.) However, firearms in the Renaissance up until around the mid-17th century are inferior in range to longbows and some crossbows. Heroism is still very much the province of cold steel during this era: duels and dashing cavalry charges will be won swords for centuries to come. However, isn't the all-or-nothing thrill of a pistol duel heroic in its own way?
P.S. This is just my two cents by the way. I'm not actually trying to "convert" you and very much doubt I'll use a lot of gunpowder in my BR campaign anyway.

[ConjurerDragon]

Arsulon wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1163
>Arsulon wrote:
> Ariadne:
>Well, you`re certainly correct about the range advantage afforded by more advanced firearms: battle from the 18th century onward forces a redefinition of heroism (i.e. holding an advancing line while under fire.) However, firearms in the Renaissance up until around the mid-17th century are inferior in range to longbows and some crossbows. Heroism is still very much the province of cold steel during this era: duels and dashing cavalry charges will be won swords for centuries to come. However, isn`t the all-or-nothing thrill of a pistol duel heroic in its own way?
>P.S. This is just my two cents by the way. I`m not actually trying to "convert" you and very much doubt I`ll use a lot of gunpowder in my BR campaign anyway.
>
Might I recall into mind the movies about the three Musketeers of
Alexandred Dumas? Firearms were common there. And still: noone trusted
them enough to not have a sword or other weapon with him. Even IF a
person would score a hit, the reload time in most cases would demand a
backup weapon. As far as I see it firearms would something be like keen
crossbows - more likely to inflict a critical hit.

What I do not know: Would the France of the three Musketeers fall into
"renaisance" history as Anuire, Brechtür and Khinasi?
Or is that already to far advanced?
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> What I do not know: Would the France of the three Musketeers fall into
> "renaisance" history as Anuire, Brechtür and Khinasi?
> Or is that already to far advanced?

The France Dumas writes of is too advanced for Cerilia. The best
historical analogue for BR (IMO) falls about 1450; The Three Musketeers
takes place about 1625. So nearly two centuries. And these were two
centuries when a LOT of change took place, technologically and
politically. The centralized state was an entity that came into existance
here, for example, and France and Spain crystalized as united nations,
when before they`d been rather divided. Spain was at one point 13 or so
individual kingdoms. By 1469 they had gelled into Aragon and Castille,
which united by marriage; Charles inherited a unified Spain in 1516,
Phillip II in 1556 and conquored Portugal in 1580. That`s an interesting
parallel for a BR campaign right there, isn`t it?

I`ve kind of wondered what direction the rise of big states in Cerilia
might take. They don`t have all the pressures the big kingdoms of Europe
did. For one thing, with no guns, armies aren`t so expensive, so smaller
states can field their own fighting forces effectively. For another, the
bloodlines of kings actually make it better for a king to have many feudal
vassals- otherwise, his domain power is high above his bloodline, and much
of that possible RP is lost. Eventually he`d have a huge bloodline, if
his kingdom lasted that long, but then he has to start dealing with awn-
or ersheghlienization, and possible apotheosis.

Which in turn makes me wonder about there being a big Egyptian-type empire
in Aduria, where the pharoah really is pretty much a god. And why were
there no cults of the Emperor in Anuire?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>What I do not know: Would the France of the three Musketeers fall into
>>"renaisance" history as Anuire, Brechtür and Khinasi?
>>Or is that already to far advanced?
>>
>The France Dumas writes of is too advanced for Cerilia. The best
>historical analogue for BR (IMO) falls about 1450;
>
1450 can already be considered "renaisance" in our world?

>politically. The centralized state was an entity that came into existance
>here, for example, and France and Spain crystalized as united nations,
>when before they`d been rather divided. Spain was at one point 13 or so
>individual kingdoms.
>
So few? Germany had nearly hundred countries when counting all the
"reichsfreie Städte", "Erzherzöge", "Fürstentümer" and so on... I would
not consider Germany to be united before 1871 :-)

>Which in turn makes me wonder about there being a big Egyptian-type empire
>in Aduria, where the pharoah really is pretty much a god. And why were
>there no cults of the Emperor in Anuire?
>
Because the emperor was the brother of the god - if you are the brother
of a god, how much can you ascend if your brother is THE god? (Roele
was the brother of Haelyn who ascended to take the place of Anduiras).
Even the egyptian pharao was "only" the son of Osiris (I think)...
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> >The France Dumas writes of is too advanced for Cerilia. The best
> >historical analogue for BR (IMO) falls about 1450;
>
> 1450 can already be considered "renaisance" in our world?

In Italy, pretty close, in England, no chance, but the Renaissance hit
different regions at different times. This works for Cerilia, because
Anuire never felt too renaissancey to me anyway. They might be on the
cusp of it, but Brechtur is ahead IMO.

> >politically. The centralized state was an entity that came into existance
> >here, for example, and France and Spain crystalized as united nations,
> >when before they`d been rather divided. Spain was at one point 13 or so
> >individual kingdoms.
>
> So few? Germany had nearly hundred countries when counting all the
> "reichsfreie Städte", "Erzherzöge", "Fürstentümer" and so on... I would
> not consider Germany to be united before 1871 :-)

I didn`t include the Holy Roman Empire of the period on purpose, you
troublemaker. Italy also wasn`t unified until much later. France and
England are better analogues for Anuire anyway, though maybe you could get
an elected Emperor in Brechtur, that would be nifty.

> >Which in turn makes me wonder about there being a big Egyptian-type empire
> >in Aduria, where the pharoah really is pretty much a god. And why were
> >there no cults of the Emperor in Anuire?
>
> Because the emperor was the brother of the god - if you are the brother
> of a god, how much can you ascend if your brother is THE god? (Roele
> was the brother of Haelyn who ascended to take the place of Anduiras).
> Even the egyptian pharao was "only" the son of Osiris (I think)...

He would claim to be the son of Osiris, and to become Osiris when he died.
Very wierd belief system. Roele must have had nearly the bloodline Haelyn
did. Especially with the State Crown (or whatever it was, that had the
god-blood-gems in it), he was probably a match bloodline wise for the
Sphinx or the Serpent, and they have people that worship them. Heck, the
Serpent`s people get spells, don`t they?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Arsulon


Ariadne:
[...] However, isn't the all-or-nothing thrill of a pistol duel heroic in its own way?
Not realy, I think (but may be it is only because I don't like the "wild west" ideology)...



P.S. This is just my two cents by the way. I'm not actually trying to "convert" you and very much doubt I'll use a lot of gunpowder in my BR campaign anyway.
I doubt, that you can "convert" me in this manner, but keep trying... ;)

[ConjurerDragon]

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>>The France Dumas writes of is too advanced for Cerilia. The best
>>>historical analogue for BR (IMO) falls about 1450;
>>>
>>1450 can already be considered "renaisance" in our world?
>>
>In Italy, pretty close, in England, no chance, but the Renaissance hit
>different regions at different times. This works for Cerilia, because
>Anuire never felt too renaissancey to me anyway. They might be on the
>cusp of it, but Brechtur is ahead IMO.
>
Only because they use rapiers instead of longswords? Or for other reasons?

>I didn`t include the Holy Roman Empire of the period on purpose, you
>troublemaker. Italy also wasn`t unified until much later.
>
Garibaldi? But I did not even mean the whole "Holy Roman Empire of
German Nation" - that would include much more than hundred small states.
I meant the version of german empire after the emperors ceased to try to
reconquer whole italy and saw themselves as successors of the roman
cäsars (so after Konradin the last Staufer died and the Habsburg family
started to rule). Then the german emperor was elected by "Kurfürsten".
Something like Dukes who could vote who will become emperor.
As far as I remember 3 of them were clerical (Kurfürst of Trier, Mainz
and Köln) one was a king (of Böhmen), then the Kurfüst of the Palatinate
(who later lost his "Kur" to Bayern) and some others.

> France and England are better analogues for Anuire anyway, though maybe you could get
>an elected Emperor in Brechtur, that would be nifty.
>
Even in Anuire it would make sense. Every Duke has a vote - all elect
the new emperor who reigns as long as he can keep the majority of the
Dukes behind him...

>>Because the emperor was the brother of the god - if you are the brother
>>of a god, how much can you ascend if your brother is THE god? (Roele
>>was the brother of Haelyn who ascended to take the place of Anduiras).
>>Even the egyptian pharao was "only" the son of Osiris (I think)...
>>
>
>He would claim to be the son of Osiris, and to become Osiris when he died.
>Very wierd belief system. Roele must have had nearly the bloodline Haelyn
>did. Especially with the State Crown (or whatever it was, that had the
>god-blood-gems in it), he was probably a match bloodline wise for the
>Sphinx or the Serpent, and they have people that worship them. Heck, the
>Serpent`s people get spells, don`t they?
>
This can be an argument for that NOT evey blooded being with a very high
bloodline will at some time ascend to become a god on the other hand. I
dread the thought that every blooded essentially can ascend to heaven by
bloodtheft and wise rule.
bye
Michael

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[kgauck]

Daniel McSorley wrote:

> In Italy, pretty close, in England, no chance, but the Renaissance hit
> different regions at different times. This works for Cerilia, because
> Anuire never felt too renaissancey to me anyway. They might be on the
> cusp of it, but Brechtur is ahead IMO.

Anuire has strong Renaissance themes. Look to the French and to a lessor
extent German and English renaissance, rather than the more familiar Italian
renaissance. The Brecht are easily as Italian as they are German (if not more
so), but looking to other models of classical revival is the way to go to see
Anuire as a renaissance domain.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Arsulon]

Ariadne:
Froehliche Weihnachten und ein gluckliches Neues Jahr! Gunfight at the Osoerde Corral? Ack. No thank you. I agreee wholeheartedly that the western gunslinger phenomenon has little place in a fantasy campaign: I thoroughly detested the whole "Mask of Zorro"/Wild West flavour that permeated TSR's Red Steel and Savage Baronies products. When I mentioned the pistol duel I was actually referring to the marvelously wasteful heroism of the aristocratic 10-paces-turn-and-fire type of contest. The musketeer tradition has been mentioned: where do you stand on the gunpowder heroism of Rostand and Dumas?

A word on the Renaissance character of Birthright. It seems increasingly difficult for me to think of Anuire in terms of a Renaissance culture. Many of the social and political phenomenon in that era were owing (directly or indirectly) the the printing press and gunpowder: both of which, we are told, do not exist in Cerilia. Likewise, far from the great age of exploration, Anuire seems very self-absorbed and insular (politicall, economically and socially.) I wonder where Cerilia's India lies? I'm really looking forward to reading that Dragon article which outlines the role of gunpowder in BR: it might provide some answers by identifying which culture developed it (an Adurian empire? a Djapar culture?) I remember from an online discussion that the Masetians were analgous to the Persians, so perhaps there are other earthy historical analogies elsewhere.

[Athos69]

Anuire is *not* a rennaisance culture at all. At best it is an amalgam of western European high-medieval culture, c. 1300.


Unfortunately Travis Doom's writings in the BR Conversion Guide v. 3.08, have the cultures all wrong.

Anuire: c. 1300 England / France, *not* Imperial Rome
Brechtur: Hanseatic League (1241-1669 Baltic Germany), *not* ancient Spain
Khinasi: Ayyubid Caliphate (muslims under Saladin), *not* ancient Persia
Rjurik: Norse, *not* Dark Age Celt
Vos: Rus / with minor Mongolian influence, about the only place that the document came close -- they specify Mongolian.

Personally, I object to gunpowder in the campaign at all... it takes away the feel of the world too much.

[kgauck]

> A word on the Renaissance character of Birthright. It seems
> increasingly difficult for me to think of Anuire in terms of
> a Renaissance culture. Many of the social and political
> phenomenon in that era were owing (directly or > indirectly)
> the the printing press and gunpowder: both of which, we are told, do
> not exist in Cerilia. Likewise, far from the great age of
> exploration, Anuire seems very self-absorbed and insular
> (politicall, economically and socially.) I wonder where Cerilia`s
> India lies?

Exploration, gunpowder, and printing are incidental to renaissance. The
renaissance could mean (for Cerilia) a shift from a medieval to a post medieval
social, political, and economic order. In RL, renaissance means a rebirth of
classical learning, none of which involves printing, guns, or blue water
sailing. If you pattern any Cerilian power only from high medieval
perspective, then certainly those cultures will not be renaissance. If you
look at earth cultures of 1450-1600 for ideas about clothes, styles,
mentalities, situations, problems, technologies, philosophies, &c, &c, then
they will reflect a more recognizably renaissance society.

Just the fact that the medieval world`s religious experience was its great
universalism and unity (occasional heritics excepted). The mere polytheism of
Cerilia makes it easier to make analogies to the sectarian experience of the
16th century. Clothes as depicted in the BR art is renaissance. If you select
concepts of honor from the 15th century rather than the 12th, that makes a
difference as well. Does your description of the nature of the state better
resemble Machiavelli or Thomas Mallory?

Its certainly not wrong to design your campaign off of what ever models you
choose, but it is possible to make a case for Anuire, Khinasi, and Brectuer, as
Renaissance societies without gunpowder, discovering new worlds, or printing
presses.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

> Unfortunately Travis Doom`s writings in the BR Conversion Guide v. 3.08,
> have the cultures all wrong.
>
> Anuire: c. 1300 England / France, *not* Imperial Rome
> Brechtur: Hanseatic League (1241-1669 Baltic Germany), *not* ancient Spain
> Khinasi: Ayyubid Caliphate (muslims under Saladin), *not* ancient Persia
> Rjurik: Norse, *not* Dark Age Celt

You can make a case for Anuire as a Roman, or Romance society, the Khinasi as
nearly any mideastern culture, and I would say that the Rjurik as easily as
Celtic as it is Norse. This is really an issue of where a DM can find
inspiratuion. I think the BR designers were clever enough to use several
sources to provide Cerilian cultures. Personally, I keep both the Celtic and
Norse sources available when dealing with the Rjurik. It allows the Rjurik to
have twice as large an idea pool, and doesn`t precisely resemble either Norse
or Celt. If I picked bronze age Japan as a model for the Rjurik, my game would
be just as cool, but it would be harder for me to share my take on the Rjurik
in a useful way with other members of the BR community. I make a lot of use of
Anglo-Saxon models as well for the Rjurik, I`m not sure how much resonance that
has with others, but I figure its not so far removed from either Celts or Norse
(and could be viewed as a bridge culture, linking Celts and Norse) that I
figure its worthwhile to share that material.

If someone shares a vision of the Brecht as ancient Spain, I`ll see what they
have to say. If someone says the Brecht have no connection to ancient Spain, I
must admit I`m going to begin to draw analogies between Phonecian Spain and the
Brechts right away.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Arsulon]

Kenneth,
You are, of course, mistaken in suggesting that exploration, gunpowder and printing are incidental to the Renaissace.

The Renaissace was the first great age of exploration. Consider the economic and social ramifications of the expeditions of Colombus, Cabot and Drake. The drive for empire was in large part facillitated by the discovery and exploitation of foriegn markets and resources. The intellectual and artistic achievements of the Italian Renaissance were in turn facillitated by the capital generated by trade.

The increasing use of gunpowder weapons in the Renaissance is in large measure (in conjunction with the use of pikemen) responsible for the decline of the knight in combat and the refinition of aristocratic honour. The increased use of cannon on the battlefield and attendant high cost of such weapons is often discussed as a major contributor toward the decline of localized aristocratic power and the rise of the nation state: another key socio-political feature of the Renaissance.

Innovations in the accessibility of knowledge and the structure of human thought that attended the rise of print in Europe also influenced art, literature, philosophy and politics. The explosive innovation that characterized the Renaissance was amplified, if not in part generated by, the printing press. The rigidly fixed class structure which determined one's status from birth based on family property ownership began to yield to the rise of an intellectual middle class; as a result, the possiblility of changing one's status infused the less privilaged with ambition and a hunger for education.

You are certainly correct about the etymology of the word "renaissance"; however, it may interest you to know the term was coined centuries later. While Renaissance culture certainly derives its impetus and inspiration from classical civilization, it is worth noting that it is primarily an age of innovation rather than renovation. Even influential figures of the era such as Mirandola, Castiglione, Davinci and Machievelli considered themselves primarily innovators rather than inspired copyists (for that we go to the medieval monks.)

Yes, the pictures in BR certainly do resemble Renaissance clothes, don't they? I might make the point that this is a superficial link to that era at best.

Concerning your notes on historical analogues: yes, you might make the arguement that ANY historical culture can indirectly inspire a GM's take on how he presents a BR culture. However, some analogues are closer than others. I think, for example, to say Anuire resembles Rome is no more helpful a comparison than saying Nova Scotia resembles Rome; after all, it IS a Latin name, and you WILL find evidence of influences from classical/western civilization there. The post suggesting the more likely model of 14th century England for Anuire is trying to make use of a more applicable example (i.e. it is less of a stretch than imperial Rome in terms of technology, culture and politics.)

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-12-25 at 05:15, Michael Romes wrote:
> daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> >
> >>What I do not know: Would the France of the three Musketeers fall into
> >>"renaisance" history as Anuire, Brechtür and Khinasi?
> >>Or is that already to far advanced?
> >>
> >The France Dumas writes of is too advanced for Cerilia. The best
> >historical analogue for BR (IMO) falls about 1450;
> >
> 1450 can already be considered "renaisance" in our world?

Daniel likes 1450 for his BR. I`ve made argument before for a value
closer to 450. Of course the Brechts are then a little too advanced
culturally. But Anuire is Roman Empire - no gunpowder but in most ways
as advanced (or more so) as 1450 Europe.

When did China get gunpowder ? anyone ? Even so, gunpowder alone doesn`t
get you guns of any quality - you need metallurgy etc. And to produce
armies of men with rifles you need mass production - individual weapons
would require each person be responsible for their own ammo (and food
and...), the reliability of early weapons has already been expounded on.

From a philosophical point of view - gunpowder weapons are even less
desirable - except as an oddity. The argument of science versus magic is
oft debated - and is in some respects a futile debate - as the results
are the same ---- either you have magic or you have science (although
pitting one against the other is interesting enough as a one-off
experience). Co-existence is impossible. Countless fantasy authors have
proposed countless arguments as to why - but none deny the final
equation.

450 AD is a better "fit" to kingdom sizes, political boundaries, mixture
of dark age, medieval and more advanced culture. It`s also better fit
for military units (except ships).

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-12-25 at 17:04, Athos69 wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1163
>
> Athos69 wrote:
> Anuire is *not* a rennaisance culture at all. At best it is an amalgam of western European high-medieval culture, c. 1300.
>
>
> Unfortunately Travis Doom`s writings in the BR Conversion Guide v. 3.08, have the cultures all wrong.
>
> Anuire: c. 1300 England / France, *not* Imperial Rome

Rome is a way better fit. Cultured, sophisticated, decadent, arrogant,
rule by Law, after all the Tribunes (magistrates) rule Republican Rome.
And a great Empire, forged by just a few - followed by an inevitable
fall. Imperators (Emperors of Rome) were, by law, not allowed to hold
power indefinitely. By disobeying the gods, they sealed their fate.

> Brechtur: Hanseatic League (1241-1669 Baltic Germany), *not* ancient Spain

Hanseatic league is a better fit from materials - but from a period POV,
ancient Spain would have been a wiser choice. "Havens of the Great Bay"
is both the best and the poorest of the source materials. It`s almost as
if it were written by two different people.

> Khinasi: Ayyubid Caliphate (muslims under Saladin), *not* ancient Persia

Somewhere between I think. Not *ancient* Persia, but not Saladin either.
"Cities of the Sun" is a little weak on content.

> Rjurik: Norse, *not* Dark Age Celt

Oh, Celts all the way. A much maligned and misunderstood high culture -
they invented horseshoes and chain mail after all. "Roman Age" Celt -
rather than "Dark Age" Celt. Far more civilized than the Norse.

> Vos: Rus / with minor Mongolian influence, about the only place that the document came close --
they specify Mongolian.

Rus, yes - of course this makes them a quite nomadic culture. Mongolian
is a cop-out. But a "barbarian" culture nonetheless. The Vos culture
could be far more complex than it appears. I think the writers of
"Tribes" were struggling with forcing the Vos culture into an western
European set of rules.

>
> Personally, I object to gunpowder in the campaign at all... it takes away the feel of the world too much.

Yes. Me too.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-12-25 at 18:13, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> If someone shares a vision of the Brecht as ancient Spain, I`ll see what they
> have to say. If someone says the Brecht have no connection to ancient Spain, I
> must admit I`m going to begin to draw analogies between Phonecian Spain and the
> Brechts right away.
>


Oh do share.

alright: - "the Brecht have no connection to ancient Spain"

Now, share?

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[ConjurerDragon]

Arsulon wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1163
>Arsulon wrote:
> Ariadne:
>Froehliche Weihnachten und ein gluckliches Neues Jahr!
>
Fröhliche Weihnachten :-)
Merry Christmas and Jojeux Noel (or however it is written) ;-)

> Gunfight at the Osoerde Corral? Ack. No thank you. I agreee wholeheartedly that the western gunslinger phenomenon has little place in a fantasy campaign: I thoroughly detested the whole "Mask of Zorro"/Wild West flavour that permeated TSR`s Red Steel and Savage Baronies products. When I mentioned the pistol duel I was actually referring to the marvelously wasteful heroism of the aristocratic 10-paces-turn-and-fire type of contest. The musketeer tradition has been mentioned: where do you stand on the gunpowder heroism of Rostand and Dumas?
>
Certainly not with revolvers or multi-shot colts! Osoerde Corral -
horrible thought. When mentioning Three Musketeeres I meant singleshot
weapons.

>A word on the Renaissance character of Birthright. It seems increasingly difficult for me to think of Anuire in terms of a Renaissance culture. Many of the social and political phenomenon in that era were owing (directly or indirectly) the the printing press and gunpowder: both of which, we are told, do not exist in Cerilia. Likewise, far from the great age of exploration, Anuire seems very self-absorbed and insular (politicall, economically and socially.) I wonder where Cerilia`s India lies? I`m really looking forward to reading that Dragon article which outlines the role of gunpowder in BR: it might provide some answers by identifying which culture developed it (an Adurian empire? a Djapar culture?) I remember from an online discussion that the Masetians were analgous to the Persians, so perhaps there are other earthy historical analogies elsewhere.
>
The great explorations in europe took place after the nations were
largely united -
wasn´t the king of portugal sending his navy south to discover the Cap
Verde and other things not seen before - AFTER Portugal had been freed
from the ? (Mauren in german). Spain sent out Kolumbus out to explore
after it had been united as far as I remember - so the best reason for
not exploring is that Anuire is still struggling with itself and
everyone looking to his neighbour so that noone but the Brecht and the
Rjurik (Thaelean colonys) really tries to explore.
Mieres is only a colony in a land already known before, no newly
explored land.
bye
Michael

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[ConjurerDragon]

Athos69 wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1163
>Athos69 wrote:
> Anuire is *not* a rennaisance culture at all. At best it is an amalgam of western European high-medieval culture, c. 1300.
>
>Unfortunately Travis Doom`s writings in the BR Conversion Guide v. 3.08, have the cultures all wrong.
>
>Anuire: c. 1300 England / France, *not* Imperial Rome
>
Anuire would be Imperial Rome during the time the Anuirean empire
existed - which has dissolved after the death of Michael Roele and this
is using the current date of Birthright roughly 500 years ago. Even the
Roman Empire looked different than the roman empire 500 years after the
last emperor - why not Anuire?

>Brechtur: Hanseatic League (1241-1669 Baltic Germany), *not* ancient Spain
>
The Coqs are definitely Hanseatic league (Kogge) and a traders culture
would speak for it as well.
bye
Michael

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[Arsulon]

Peter,
The first recorded use of gunpowder that I know of is an experiment by Chinese scientist Ma Jun in 250 B.C.: it seems he was stuffing bamboo stalks with powder and setting them off to see if containment amplified the explosion. The first arquebus-like weapons used by the Chinese appear in A.D. 1250 or so; however, they'd been using "fire-lances" (sort of spears with flamethrower heads) in combat for centuries before that. I can only assume the chemical fuel was similar to Greek fire, which the Byzantines started using in the 800's I believe.
Do you really think Anuire resembles the Roman Empire before the fall of the west in A.D. 476? Anuire isn't a unified (or even split) empire with a state military and religion (Christianity by that point, courtesty of Constantine and Valentinian.) On the other hand, Anuire IS a series of culturally associated feudal domains ruled by landed aristocrats: much like medieval Europe. Mind you, I think it would've been interesting if the BR designers had given us an imperial culture like Byzantium to play around with. Are you sort of approaching the whole situation in Anuire as an extended imperial civil war or interegnum? Let me know what you think, I'd like to hear more about your Roman analogy.

[geeman]

At 10:22 AM 12/25/2002 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>Anuire would be Imperial Rome during the time the Anuirean empire existed
>- which has dissolved after the death of Michael Roele and this is using
>the current date of Birthright roughly 500 years ago.

I personally view the period of Anuirean empire as being more analogous to
that of Charlemagne with the accompanying Carolingian Renaissance. Rome is
too vast (not to mention being Italian/Greek rather than
French/German/English) to be very accurately portrayed by the relatively
tiny Empire of Anuire even at it`s height. For a Roman empire equivalent
I`d look somewhere a five or eight hundred miles to the SW in Aduria.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-12-25 at 22:24, Arsulon wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1163
>
> Arsulon wrote:
> Peter,
> The first recorded use of gunpowder that I know of is an experiment by Chinese
> scientist Ma Jun in 250 B.C.: it seems he was stuffing bamboo stalks with powder
> and setting them off to see if containment amplified the explosion. The first
> arquebus-like weapons used by the Chinese appear in A.D. 1250 or so; however,
> they`d been using "fire-lances" (sort of spears with flamethrower heads) in
> combat for centuries before that. I can only assume the chemical fuel was
> similar to Greek fire, which the Byzantines started using in the 800`s I
> believe.
> Do you really think Anuire resembles the Roman Empire before the fall of the
> west in A.D. 476?
Culturally, yes.

> Anuire isn`t a unified (or even split) empire with a state military
and religion (Christianity by that point, courtesty of Constantine and
Valentinian.)

Peter: On a religious note, the Roman Empire was at that time in-and-out
"officially" of Christianity. As to whether - in practice - much
changed between announcements, I truly doubt it. Christianity was
unlikely to have been dominant although certainly widespread by then -
much as Haelyn and Cuiraecen especially are throughout Cerilia.

(I don`t want to start a religious war here - but Christianity as a
state religion was never really in the kind of control situation we see
state religions having today. i.e. we just celebrated the birthday of a
religious figure from about 500 BC on December 25, a religion having a
strong influence in the early centuries in Rome (and very similar
philosophy to Christianity). Christianity has incorporated not just that
particular festival, but also the mitred hats of the popes, the use of
"father" as a priestly title (expressly forbidden by Christ!), and
several other minor points. The polytheistic culture just merged
Christian ideas into one big state church.

Haelyn is not terribly dominant either - except in certain principal
realms - Diemed, Talinie, perhaps ?Roesone? --

Arsulon: On the other hand, Anuire IS a series of culturally associated
feudal domains ruled by landed aristocrats: much like medieval Europe.

Peter: By 4th and 5th C, the feudal system was already in place in
outlying Roman Empire. Of course to some extent the definition of
"feudal" is debated even among the academic community. Here, I`m using
the concept that the landholders must maintain troops to defend their
"area" and owe allegiance (often in exchange for that land) to an higher
authority.

Arsulon: Mind you, I think it would`ve been interesting if the BR
designers had given us an imperial culture like Byzantium to play around
with.

Peter: Or, (given the Chinese/gunpowder connection) China.

Arsulon: Are you sort of approaching the whole situation in Anuire as
an extended imperial civil war or interegnum? Let me know what you
think, I`d like to hear more about your Roman analogy.

Peter: No. I`m looking at it from a cultural/historical analogy.
(According to the original designers Anuire was based on the Rome). Of
course, people in the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire were seldom native
Romans - unlike the Anuireans who are from a common stock.

From the rulebook we get that Anuireans are "the equivalent of
renaissance culture" - not that they "are renaissance culture" - an
interesting distinction. Many people interpret this to mean that the
"Anuireans have renaissance technology", since it appears near to a
discussion of technology the transferal of context is somewhat natural.
But, it`s as likely that the discussion of ideas (in writing the
rulebook) moved on from technology to culture as a natural progression.

I look at Anuire - or the rise and fall of the Anuirean Empire - as
being similar to the transition from Rome as a Republic to Rome as a
Empire. With one great and truly noble Imperator each - a situation of
need rather than one of desire - followed by a succession of lesser
emperors driven by more personal goals.

When one thinks of the fall of Rome - there was no such fall in reality
- it was a gradual thing - but we often associate it with a split in two
- when it really fractured into many pieces. Lots of small kingdoms
which were once part of the Roman Empire. In this respect I`m looking at
the scale (size) of BR kingdoms and looking for historical analogues.
(esp. in Albion wrt the Arthurian era)

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[kgauck]

> Arsulon wrote:
> Kenneth,
> You are, of course, mistaken in suggesting that exploration, gunpowder and
> printing are incidental to the Renaissace.

Sir, I assure you that I am not mistaken. You must define what you mean by
renaissance to speak to this issue. Because I am able to define renaissance to
mean a rediscovery of ancient learning, I can very well ignore all those
historical phenomena not born from such ancient learning (be it Greek and Roman
or Old Andu, &c). I tried to avoid this specific limit in my definition, since
I can count on one hand those who seem happy to recieve doctoral dissertations
on such technical matters (and a tip o` the hat to ye), but I will say that it
should be clear that there are enough renaissance markers to allow you to
imagine a renaissance culture without guns, printers, or America.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

> Oh do share.

The Carthagians who dominated Spain prior to Rome were a merchantile people,
clung to the coast, working inland only to exploit resources that would work
their way to port for commcerial reasons. The geography of Spain and North
Africa can be turned about 50 degrees counter clockwise to get a similar sense
of how trade networks would form and how much direct contact there would be
across the deep water, rather than moving along the coast. Carthaginian Spain
was ruled by a commcercial oligarchy (guilders), rather than warriors or
priests. Some of their interesting cultural tidbits could be used to add an
exoticism to the Brecht, or their religion at least. They were excellent
sailors. Their great rival was the Roman Empire, easily understood as an
analogy to Anuire. The Carthaginians came from somewhere else (Phonecia,
rather than Andu). Carthaginian Spain was highly urbanized, with the purpose
of the towns being markets and processing locales. Key Carthaginian gods were
providers of prosperity, these could be models for Sera. The previous
inhabitants of Spain were the Celto-Iberians. There are three realms of Celto-
Rjuriks on the immediate fringes of Brecht lands. Just to the south of
Carthaginian Spain is Northern Africa, whose occupants in the next millenium,
the Saracens and Berbers, could be a model for Khinasi. Mining was important
for ancient Spain. It was a source of iron, so highly prized that much of
ancient iron would eventually be mined in Spain. There are more mentions of
mining in Havens otGB, than in any of the other books.

Going by a Punic model, a Brecht realm would be ruled by councils of nobles who
saw themselves as merchants, controled a single province, its law, and its
trade, and saw control of law and province as a way to protect and guarantee
trade power. They would pool their GB`s and RP`s in a crisis, and use them
individually to conduct long distance ventures the rest of the time. Much of
the army of the Brecht realms would be mercenaries, and much fo those,
foriegn. If you can imagine Brecht guilders directing mercenary units of
Rjurik, Vos, and Khinasi against the old enemy, Anuire, then you might well be
thinking of ancient Spain.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Because I am able to define renaissance to mean a rediscovery of
> ancient learning, I can very well ignore all those historical
> phenomena not born from such ancient learning (be it Greek and Roman
> or Old Andu, &c).

So what old knowledge are the Anuireans and Brechts rediscovering? On
earth, there was philosophy, art styles, and other cultural bits copied
from ancient Rome and Greece into the `Renaissance` societies. This was
accompanied by technological and political change. When the writers of BR
spoke about Anuire, Brechtur, and Khinasi as `Renaissance`, I always
figured they had to mean technologically at least, because there`s not
much philosophy or art mentioned at all, and no intimation of old
techniques being relearned.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

At 08:43 PM 12/25/2002 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

> > Anuire: c. 1300 England / France, *not* Imperial Rome
>
>Rome is a way better fit. Cultured, sophisticated, decadent, arrogant,
>rule by Law, after all the Tribunes (magistrates) rule Republican Rome.
>And a great Empire, forged by just a few - followed by an inevitable
>fall. Imperators (Emperors of Rome) were, by law, not allowed to hold
>power indefinitely. By disobeying the gods, they sealed their fate.

Those may be (and a few may not be) accurate descriptors of the Anuirean
Empire, but they are very generalized. Most of them (particular titles
aside) could be described as characteristics of any empire viewed in
retrospect not just Rome.

Personally, I balk at Anuirean Empire=Rome analogy for a few reasons, but
mostly because Rome has a decidedly "Mediterranean" aspect to it, if you
will, that I find lacking in most of the descriptions of Anuire`s history
and culture. I don`t know, maybe later northern Italy under the Lombards
or something, but Imperial Rome? Nah. In many ways the Roman Empire was
the politics/society of the polis run amuck, and I don`t get that same vibe
from the Imperial City of Anuire.

> > Brechtur: Hanseatic League (1241-1669 Baltic Germany), *not* ancient Spain
>
>Hanseatic league is a better fit from materials - but from a period POV,
>ancient Spain would have been a wiser choice.

Why do you think Spain would have been wiser?

> > Khinasi: Ayyubid Caliphate (muslims under Saladin), *not* ancient Persia
>
>Somewhere between I think. Not *ancient* Persia, but not Saladin either.
>"Cities of the Sun" is a little weak on content.

Interestingly, this is where I think Spain (under the Moors) would be a
good analogy. There are decidedly mid-Eastern influences, but many Western
ones as well. Maybe it`s just me on this one, but since a few folks have
mentioned the artwork as a reference, the depictions of many Khinasi in
CotS have a more Western African look to me than Eastern African.

> > Personally, I object to gunpowder in the campaign at all... it takes
> away the feel of the
> > world too much.
>
>Yes. Me too.

Having seen a lot of D20 rules regarding firearms I`m less dogmatic in my
objection to firearms in BR than I once was. Oh, I`m still against it, but
it doesn`t strike me as being such a bad idea anymore for those occasions
when someone really wanted to promote that kind of thing. Making them
exotic weapons and very expensive, relatively slow firing and unreliable is
manageable. It`s probably a little unrealistic to make them so difficult
to use, but that appears to be the point, so if one uses those kinds of
rule they`ll have less of an influence on actual play.

The thing about gunpowder, of course, is that with explosives come
cannon. (There are pragmatic reasons why cannon should really come before
personal weapons which is generally not the way gunpowder gets presented in
RPGs.) That is a bit of a tweak in that cannon have a pretty direct
influence on castle building. Social structures tend to lack behind
technological development, though, and there`s a good century of gunpowder
before we see significant change in the nature of nobility, serfdom,
tactics in war, etc.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 12:24 PM 12/25/2002 +0100, Arsulon wrote:

>The first recorded use of gunpowder that I know of is an experiment by
>Chinese scientist Ma Jun in 250 B.C.: it seems he was stuffing bamboo
>stalks with powder and setting them off to see if containment amplified
>the explosion. The first arquebus-like weapons used by the Chinese appear
>in A.D. 1250 or so; however, they`d been using "fire-lances" (sort of
>spears with flamethrower heads) in combat for centuries before that. I
>can only assume the chemical fuel was similar to Greek fire, which the
>Byzantines started using in the 800`s I believe.

I don`t suppose you`d care to list some of your references? I`ve only done
some cursory reading in the background of gunpowder, mostly in relation to
military history texts rather than specific inquiries into gunpowder
development itself.

Gary

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[kgauck]

Daniel McSorley wrote:

> I always figured they had to mean technologically at least,
> because there`s not much philosophy or art mentioned at all,
> and no intimation of old techniques being relearned.

Which pretty much gives us a free hand to associate what ever we want with a
glorious past. In places like Khinasi, that can be a new interest in things
Masetian, in Brechtur it can be pre-imperial Brecht culture, in Anuire a new
interest in imperial institutions, literature, art, aesthetics, philosophy, and
whatever. Personally, I use this as an excuse to Romanize Anuire in the same
way that the renaissance reintroduced classical aesthetics, stoicism, and
military ideas. I think about the Brecht re-establishing their culture by
driving out vestigal Anuirean forms by rediscovering old Brecht culture. Some
of this looks like 19th century German Romanticism.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Arsulon]

Gary,
I really wish I could remember where I picked up those dates for the invention and application of gunpowder: it's just one of those things I read a long while back and occasionally reference in conversation. There's a good Nova article on Chinese inventions/innovations at www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html and you could also get some facts from the online Franklin Institute and ThinkQuest library. Let me know if I've screwed up the dates. Man, this debate's really got me wanting to read that Dragon Magazine article...