Undead in BRCS

[kgauck]

Probably like most players and DM's, I know the PS' of the realms I have played in, backward and forward. The whole immediate transfer thing just hit me wrong, given how close to the surface B-A floats about in my consciousness.

Please file under

You know you have been thinking about Birthright too much when ....

[geeman]

At 11:37 AM 12/2/2007, kgauck wrote:

>Just to be obnoxious, I`ll point out that in the Baruk-Azhik PS,
>there is a two year period between one ruler and another, and there
>is no discussion of how exactly this works.

Heh. Lots of things in that PS that are problematic. The same
material makes it so that Graybeard isn`t really dead, so maybe
that`s the (otherwise unspoken) rationale for the transfer not
occurring more rapidly or in the regular fashion. At the end of that
period he is voluntarily turning over the reigns of power after doing
whatever it was he needed to do in order to accomplish his
tranformation (like continue to earn RP to spend on some mystical
ascension process....)

Gary

[AndrewTall]

Blood of the new gods
I'd say that the new gods are every bit as holy as the old... If someone is infused with the power of the new gods to the point of being restored to life - which presumably involves having had their spirit guided from the appropriate plane/area of the Shadow world - then I'd say there was a good argument for saying that some of the power lingered. For ease the bloodline would track the appropriate old god that originally empowered the new god - unless a GM wants to make things a little more interesting. If you play with that sort of rule then you can say that bloodline is lost on death without penalising PC regents unduly by having them come back with a minor bloodline and therefore still able to rule 'their' realm.

Spawn
The number of actions issue is not need for sleep, rest etc - its the manner in which the master has control over the spawn. Typically this is described as absolute control for most undead - in that case it doesn't matter whether the spawn was formerly a scion or not, the spawn may be a figurehead but they cannot act independently of the master and so a master undead spawning 3 scion's into minions still has their usual 3 actions only. They don't get their 3 and 9 more from ultra-loyal spawn-vassals.

I'd argue strongly that if the spawns are sufficiently free-willed to get their own set of actions - i.e. free willed enough to plan, scheme, etc - then the typical absolute domination relationship of spawn and master is broken - it was designed for a dungeon bash where options were reduced to 'hit the big guy in plate, don't be dominated by the mage while doing so' - not for a situation where ghast-spawn A has to charm lady Donele into encouraging her lover Duraend into challenging spawn-A's enemy Riegon into a duel, etc. At the most the master may be able to exercise domination when physically proximate to the spawn, but that prevents the master carrying out their own actions - and whenever the master left the spawns side it would immediately be plotting to free itself of the masters domination - and quite possibly have the resources to make such a wish happen 'arch-prelate, the donation is a trifle, when my ship comes in it will be tripled! In the meantime I fear I have terrible news, my sources inform me that count Raenwe is not waht he seems - indeed he is a vampire! He was seen preying on poor shepherds a week ago, quite terrible I am sure you agree. Fortunately I have knowledge of vulnerabilities shared by his kind if you can find some brave souls to take advantage of them...'

It is worth remembering that sources aside, all domain actions tend to involve large numbers of people serving the regent, various inter-weaving power plays as people jockey for position or to take advantage of the regent's actions, etc. If the spawn can only act when the master tells them to do so then these sorts of issues will swiftly dominate the spawns agenda and prevent it from carrying out its masters plans - the guilds frustrate the rulers in Talinie and Dhoesone for example, the spawn would suffer far more if it was only effective when its master was present.

Rule by the damned
It is worth noting that of the awnies mentioned, the magian has only just arrived - and uses a figurehead to avoid terrifying people with his presence, the Gorgon is served by scum only, the Vampire has to run a police state to imprison his people and stop them fleeing, and the (still being maligned) Banshee is as far as can be seen a sweet half elf with a perchant for low taxes and fair rulership - the 'banshee' in question simply being some evil spirit preying on isolated folk int he hills. Even the Swordhawk and Raven go swathed in armour to avoid scaring the natives over-much. I can see a vampire making a reasonable regent, possibly a well-preserved lich - but a ghast or mummy? There is only so much rulership that 'speaking from behind thick curtains' can do.

If undead start openly trying to rule, or begin transforming peasants/etc en masse to spawn / zombies / etc and make an entirely undead nation, then aside from the religious issues there is going to be mass panic and a collapse of the society they are trying to rule - if people are literally more use dead than alive to their regent and the regent is infamous for being merciless and seeing people as merely prey, then emigration or rebellion is the only reasonable response long term for the mass populace.

Secret orders
I'd see the religions are key in these - Ruornil would almost certainly see destroying undead regents as a holy duty, Haelyn might well see them as a perversion of his order - particularly if they prey upon their vassals, Erik would oppose them as unnatural, etc. Then you have mages who don't want the mebhaighl of the land polluted by awnmebhaighl drawn by the undead regent, etc. In any specific case you also get noble families who see their chances of marrying into power, etc destroyed by having an immortal on the throne, etc.

[ryancaveney]

If the soul departs the body (in death), the divine essence is released as the spirit is ripped from the body. That's how bloodtheft and loss of the bloodline occurs. However, sentient undead creatures keep their souls bound to their bodies, animating them. I would say that Azrai's essence in his bloodlines can be preserved through the process into undeath, but not that of any of the other gods. However, undead awnsheghlien cannot spawn progeny.

Well, you've definitely made up my mind. The above is now true IMC. =) I don't think it should really be restricted to scions of Azrai, though. Yes, his blood should have the easiest time making the transition, and any other blood going through the process should be at risk of corruption, but I think there ought to be a ritual that can bind any scion's bloodline to an undead body. In fact, I think the Magian should have used it at least once already, and make reference to it in negotiations: "So you see, Your Grace, you can either become my willing vassal, or you'll be killed, reanimated and commanded into service like poor Count Reginald over there. Wave, Reginald! Good chap. Now, sir, which option do you and your charming wife prefer?"

I resist the strong implications I see through most of BRnet to cast the Seeming as an entirely corrupted source of power. There are still supposed to be Faerie Realms--as well as the domains of the gods--that persist in untainted Seeming.

IMO, the Shadow World has sources and holdings and province levels and realm rulers and all, just like non-Shadow Cerilia, except slightly-to-immensely different. In fact, I think the one reason Rhoubhe Manslayer doesn't just kill all the humans in Anuire this afternoon is that he spends all of his time and effort ruling the entire Shadow World Aelvinnwode, contending against the Cold Rider (the would-be Emperor Roele of the Shadow World). El-Sheighul, the Raven and Tuar Annwn are the other well-known realms which, IMO, exist mostly on the other side of the Evanescence.

[jumin]

Litches are kept alive my magic so they really dont die to begin with so I would say them and possibly vampires could but not other lesser undead

[geeman]

At 07:42 PM 12/29/2007, jumin wrote:

>Litches are kept alive my magic so they really dont die to begin
>with so I would say them and possibly vampires could but not other
>lesser undead

Dying is probably part of the transition from mortal to lich. At
least, they go through a ritualized ceremony in which a potion is
drunk that could be poisonous, so they die and return as undead. At
least, that`s what I`d gathered from the stuff I`ve read on the
subject in the various D&D manuals and Republican party brochures.

Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

This varies by the setting and minutae slightly, but part of becoming a lich includes "dying." Or, rather, would have died: as you die, the whole process makes sure that your soul does not depart as it should, but gets to recide in your phylactery.

Mind you, it's almost impossible to not be evil to become a lich: the whole process requires acts so selfish and vile that a lot of us found it almost idiotic to allow the Tel'Quessir (as they did in FR) the ability to become good liches, even if only as NPCs, really...

[ryancaveney]

it's almost impossible to not be evil to become a lich: the whole process requires acts so selfish and vile that a lot of us found it almost idiotic to allow the Tel'Quessir (as they did in FR) the ability to become good liches, even if only as NPCs, really...

*shudder* *twitch* The concept of elves who voluntarily become undead is deranged! IMO, the mere existence of such a one would be plenty of reason for the most tree-hugging elf to decide a meteor swarm in the forest was an excellent idea, so long as it annihilated the abomination!

The interesting BR question on the topic is, what about Rhuobhe Manslayer? I certainly don't think he is undead, but I do think he's the only elven regent who would be happy to cast Undead Legion -- as long as it kills humans, he's OK with it. What do others think of how the Sidhelien feel about the undead?

[kgauck]

Undead are a natural part of the Shadow World, where their opposites the seelie dwell, so the kind of undead we're talking about, skeletons and zombies, would be as disturbingly unnatural to them as it would be to us, perhaps slightly more so.

On the other hand, spirits themselves, whether from the Spirit World (the uncorrupted portions of the SW) or in the daylight world, would be perfectly natural.

I think its the spiritless undead powered by negative energy (or shadow stuff, I'd like to see what the 4e term is) that offends the sidhe. Sprits that refuse to give up their bodies and embrace the taint of Shadow to continue in a morbid existence as a greater undead is offensive in a different way. Those who remain because they are depraved in some sort, are offensive for their depravity. Those who are trapped because they cannot escape, are pitiable and tragic, worthy of destruction to release the poor soul from its bondage.

Is it possible that timaeveril was originally concieved as a way to kill undead in such a way that frees the spirit of its bondage, rather than simply destroying the body and leaving the soul in bondage. This might go along with Rowan's theory:

If the soul departs the body (in death), the divine essence is released as the spirit is ripped from the body. That's how bloodtheft and loss of the bloodline occurs. However, sentient undead creatures keep their souls bound to their bodies, animating them.

The fact that timaeveril also separates bloodlines from the body so completely is an unforeseen side effect? I'm just taking what Rowen and Ryan have said one step further here, but I think its powerful. Is there agreement about this, or significant rejection?

[Rowan]

I like that, Kgauck. It would certainly explain why an elf would endeavor to create tighmaevril. It also seemed odd to me that they'd be so interested in making a weapon for the sole purpose of bloodtheft.

If you want to apply an existing game effect to explain it, tighmaevril could act as a disrupting weapon.

To hypothesize a little more, the divinity involved in a bloodline is inherent to Aebrynis rather than the Spirit World (it gets tied to the land). This might imply that when the soul or spirit separates from the physical in Aebrynis and is cast into the Spirit world, the bloodline does not readily go with it. Tighmaevril, then, acts to strengthen the Evanescence, forcing a complete separation between soul and bloodline upon death as it acts as the Sundering barrier between the two worlds.