Unblooded Regents

**Peter Lubke** · 07-24-2002, 06:43 AM

On Wed, 2002-07-24 at 13:56, Gary wrote:

At 12:27 AM 7/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>>Shouldn`t RP dissipate over time, or when transferred to heir or
>>liege? How much?
>
>So to answer "Shouldn`t RP dissipate over time?": In this case, yes (or
>no) depending on your point of view - because RP cannot accumulate at
>all, nor may it be transferred to an heir of liege, none at all (after
>all I just defined it to be but a mechanism for measuring something).
>BUT ... there`s a second part, "Shouldn`t regency dissipate over time,
>or when ...". The transfer of power and authority carries with it a
>transfer of regency, and the transfer of a bloodline to an heir carries
>with it the effect of that bloodline - and thus a transfer of regency in
>that way also. So, am I saying yes or no or both?

Well, it doesn`t sound to me like you need RP at all, since you`re
interpreting RP not only as political clout, but an abstract and
intransigent political power at that. (Or maybe I`m just reading some
cogency into what seems to be an exercise in doublespeak.)

I interpret political power as empowering a character with regency. But
I don`t think it`s the only way to do so. A bloodline also empowers a
character with regency for example. As does the tapping of magical
sources. RP is still needed to measure and control the application of
regency as a force (or mystical power).

When you use you imagination to create things or think of new ideas - it
doesn`t deplete your capacity to be imaginative. But the number of new
ideas or creations that you can come up with in a finite amount of time
is limited by how creative your are. Let`s call them creative points (or
CP). Some persons are more creative than others - they have more CP to
spend each week. This is the kind of relationship that exists between
regency and RP also. [I`m really not trying to use doublespeak - but it
is a difficult subject.]

>>How would you handle bloodlines? Shouldn`t they be non-magical too?
>
>No, why? It doesn`t follow at all. If RP is equal to your domain power or
>your bloodline score whichever is greater then it makes perfect sense. A
>characters regency can derive from their bloodline (their personal mojo so
>to speak) or from their organizational power (respect and aura not for the
>person of the regent but for the position of the regent).

If RP still increase bloodline strength in this interpretation, and
bloodlines are still magicalit doesn`t make a lot of sense that political
clout is expended in order to earn magical power.

Political clout doesn`t give you magical power - it gives you regency.
Bloodline strength can also give you regency. It`s not a one-to-one
relationship. It`s not even a commutative relationship. (`give` is a
misleading verb here too BTW, I prefer to use `derive`)

Also, I don`t see the logic behind the "whichever is higher" change. Not
only does it eliminate any need for a system of Vassals, but it also
eliminates most of the need for a domain. If RP collection equals
bloodline strength score then holding and province levels make very little
difference to a blooded character.

Actually if it affects it at all, it increases the need for and
advantages of a system of vassals.

Wouldn`t any blooded PC create a level
0 holding, _maybe_ rule it up a level to prevent it from being destroyed
easily and then earn his bloodline in RP per domain turn. He could then
meddle in the affairs of other regent`s realms by spending RP from a pool
generated by his bloodline.

Yes, most absolutely he could. Of course his RP collection is
limited(capped) by his bloodline score, while that of other regents is
as large as their domains. Perhaps he might feel driven to build a
domain. Consider the difference between a scion doing this and a
commoner.

Aside from that, if RP are to represent political clout only,

I think I`ve dealt with the "only" part enough.

how are they
generated by bloodline strength over the domain power? Shouldn`t bloodline
be eliminated as an influence? The size of the domain alone would seem a
more likely source of political power.

Yes.

If you go with the "whichever is
higher" ruling then why would anyone with a bloodline bother run more than
a level or two of holdings, and why is being a regent a requirement at all?

Because no-one stated that RP was ONLY political clout, just that it
COULD be considered political clout. A blooded character is a born
leader with regency that derives outside of politics, giving a scion a
boost up in the world in the creation of domains.

Gary

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**kgauck** · 07-24-2002, 06:43 AM

at 11:17, Gary wrote

> Wouldn`t any blooded PC create a level 0 holding, _maybe_ rule
> it up a level to prevent it from being destroyed easily and then
> earn his bloodline in RP per domain turn. He could then meddle
> in the affairs of other regent`s realms by spending RP from a pool
> generated by his bloodline.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:42 AM

> Yes, most absolutely he could. Of course his RP collection is
> limited(capped) by his bloodline score, while that of other regents is
> as large as their domains. Perhaps he might feel driven to build a
> domain. Consider the difference between a scion doing this and a
> commoner.

Well, no wonder Peter thought that family members were so dangerous. Those
of us who don`t subscribe to the "whichever is higher" accounting system
obviously won`t find family to be so dangerous. I am refering to the Blood
Level and Blood Points discussion of May 23 2002, to May 27th. Falcon added
comments on 6/13 and 7/8.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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**Lord Eldred** · 07-24-2002, 02:33 PM

Gary, I think the problem is your interpretation of political clout. I think it is a lot more than polical favors. It is all the qualities that makes people want to follow you. Even real life politicians have some level of mystical power. Thus in my new and improved idea. A person can gain R.P. either through his political clout or his bloodline magic.

**Peter Lubke** · 07-25-2002, 04:48 AM

On Wed, 2002-07-24 at 16:25, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

at 11:17, Gary wrote

> Wouldn`t any blooded PC create a level 0 holding, _maybe_ rule
> it up a level to prevent it from being destroyed easily and then
> earn his bloodline in RP per domain turn. He could then meddle
> in the affairs of other regent`s realms by spending RP from a pool
> generated by his bloodline.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 12:42 AM

> Yes, most absolutely he could. Of course his RP collection is
> limited(capped) by his bloodline score, while that of other regents is
> as large as their domains. Perhaps he might feel driven to build a
> domain. Consider the difference between a scion doing this and a
> commoner.

Well, no wonder Peter thought that family members were so dangerous. Those
of us who don`t subscribe to the "whichever is higher" accounting system
obviously won`t find family to be so dangerous. I am refering to the Blood
Level and Blood Points discussion of May 23 2002, to May 27th. Falcon added
comments on 6/13 and 7/8.

True enough -- although your argument at the time was "that they
wouldn`t want to", not that "they wouldn`t be able to". The argument
centered around the basic nature of man, and of men imbued with the
"divine right" to rule in particular - what would be their desire -
whether it would be to rule or to serve. Although this change would make
them "more able to", it wouldn`t change the other. Also, of course, it`s
only more able to - not unable versus able - a matter of degree only.

I bowed out of that argument after conceding that there was a conflict
between the selfish human desires and love of power and potentially that
of the scion`s godly nature to be cooperative and to serve - although I
reserve judgment on whether that is a true reflection of what the gods
really want (at least in all cases).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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**kgauck** · 07-25-2002, 04:48 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:34 PM

> True enough -- although your argument at the time was "that they
> wouldn`t want to", not that "they wouldn`t be able to".

It never dawned on me that you calculated RP`s by bloodline. I just assumed
you did it like nearly everyone else. Had I known that this was an issue, I
would have addressed it.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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**Peter Lubke** · 07-25-2002, 06:36 AM

On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 14:39, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 11:34 PM

> True enough -- although your argument at the time was "that they
> wouldn`t want to", not that "they wouldn`t be able to".

It never dawned on me that you calculated RP`s by bloodline. I just assumed
you did it like nearly everyone else. Had I known that this was an issue, I
would have addressed it.

It wasn`t an issue in that discussion.The position taken was that a
scion wouldn`t go against his family (or any family), but would seek to
stabilize his own family`s dynasty even if he was not the heir. The
reason given was that he would do this because of the nature of the
bloodline (the godly essence) would make it his nature to do so. My
argument is that (irrespective of how RP is calculated) the bloodline
itself is a driving motive force within an individual - that they would
seek to found their own domain to satisfy the desire/need to fulfill the
bloodline`s potential.

The different calculation would make it easier to do so, but does not
change the basic nature. Even using the minimum calculation a scion
would IMO still desire to do so. On the other hand, if it is in their
nature to be cooperative then RP calculations are not an issue at all as
they do not affect the ability to cooperate.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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**kgauck** · 07-25-2002, 07:11 AM

Consider this Peter.

No RP for scions makes them more likely to settle for a supportive role. RP
collection for scions makes it easier for them to act on the realm level.
They are fundamentally connected. I agree that if scions collect RP based
on nothing but their bloodline, they are inherently destabilizing. Under
that condition I am in total agreement with you. Since you happened not to
mention this uncommon interpretation of RP collection I had no way of
knowing that there was a mechanical advantage to your interpretation.
That`s the kind of thing that`s lurking right behind an explanation of
motive. Since it should now be clear that I was always assuming that Prince
Avan`s brother had mother`s good looks and the ability to talk to house
martins, it seemed obvious to me to argue for a supportive role. It comes
from the fact that as a non-RP collector he could only establish a
defensible realm (more than a level one holding here or there) with backing.

It wasn`t an issue in the previous discussion because you happened to never
mention it. Its come up as an issue several times on the list and list
members hail posts against RP collection for bloodlines alone (or whichever
is higher). This is where full disclosure comes in handy.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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**Peter Lubke** · 07-25-2002, 09:24 AM

On Thu, 2002-07-25 at 16:58, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

Consider this Peter.

No RP for scions makes them more likely to settle for a supportive role.

Okay, -- but less likely is a subjective opinion based on their ability
rather than their tendency or desire to do so. Previous posts on this
subject indicated that they would not desire to do so, and thus their
decision to act on those desires did not depend on how achievable it
was. But this only holds if, (as I previously contended) a scion would
desire such a thing irrespective of his ability to achieve it - rather
than not desiring it because his nature is to be supportive.

However, rather than reopen a previous discussion - here`s a piece from
Tribes of the Heartless Wastes which I think is germane to several lines
of discussion. Vos leaders are chosen from the strongest warriors.
Bloodlines don`t enter into the equation - the priesthood has the job of
procuring a suitable bloodline for a qualifying chief/leader. Apart from
the inconsistency of the materials available to us, let`s assume and
accept that descriptions of a people/race etc, their customs etc should
hold more sway than any inference taken from sourcebook data - primary
versus secondary data rule. My question (not an argumentative one - I`d
like to open it to opinions everywhere - I have no firm position at this
time) is that: Is the nature of the Vos society bound as it is by the
nature of Belinik`s desire to prove strength through conflict so
ingrained as to override the natural tendency of scions of non-Azrai
derivations to be more humane?, In this context (Vos society) it would
appear that all (or all warriors) need desire to be regent, because RP
collection will be granted to them this is not an impediment. Could this
extend (in a lesser sense) to other cultures (in particular I`m thinking
the Iron Throne), and their desire to make claims against realms.
Because (at least in Vos society) even an unblooded character can desire
and make good a claim (in Vos by being the best warrior, elsewhere
...who knows), then bloodline may not be the reason for desire but human
nature. This was one of the reasons that I did accept that the godly
nature of a bloodline would be a reason/factor in a blooded character
NOT being so troublesome - although how such could be regulated in game
terms without denying them a bloodline is a bit tricky.

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**geeman** · 07-26-2002, 01:22 AM

At 04:33 PM 7/24/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

>Gary, I think the problem is your interpretation of political clout. I
>think it is a lot more than polical favors. It is all the qualities that
>makes people want to follow you. Even real life politicians have some
>level of mystical power. Thus in my new and improved idea. A person can
>gain R.P. either through his political clout or his bloodline magic.

That may very well be. I think it`s hard to compete with magic, and a more
mundane concept--even one that includes that intangible quality that makes
people follow you--just doesn`t compare. Aside from which, I`ve done a lot
of study on what that mundane intangible quality is and how it works for
various projects on military and political history, so to me it may be less
mysterious than it is to most folks and certainly not "mystical" in the way
the BR setting describes.

I do, however, like the idea of a realm system for D&D that is based on
more mundane qualities than those I find in BR. The BR system, however,
should have distinct advantages over a more generic system of rulership IMO
not only due to what I see as the basic magical nature of the BR system,
but to establish the more powerful relationship of blooded characters to
that system.

Gary

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**Magian** · 07-29-2002, 02:51 PM

Does anyone have anything to offer on the interpretation from the rulebook of Regency that it is mystical energy (kismet and so on) for possible rules regarding unblooded regents?