The pbem turn 1 blitz

[Birthright-L]

This is in response to a posting on a list for the Shattered Dreams pbem,
but I thought the members of br-L might have some good input on it. My
response is at the bottom.
Flame me if you don`t like the crossposting. :)

On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Morg wrote:
> I think the turn 1 blitzkrieg fashion is a result of the years of PBeMs and
> the history of games folding aafter turn 3 (if they make it that long). I
> wasn`t around the BR scene in the earliest days, and maybe I`m way off base,
> but I would suspect that the first few PBeMs to hit the internet were rather
> different than the norm we see now.
>
> Why do PBEMs fold? Well, mainly because of the immense amount of work it
> takes to resolve a turn.
> So, disect a turn, and what have you got? War Moves, just as Herbert
> mentions.
>
> If however, the players understand the vlaue of a long term campaign, and
> adjusted their style accordingly (the first step is to realize that Raenech
> didn`t just suddenly take over, and that little rebel Willie has been
> running around for a good length of time - an iconic concept that I think
> many of the players tried to express in the pregame set up of Dreams, yet
> the turn 1 blitzkreig still occured unfortunately) then the pace of the game
> would clip along fairly quickly I suspect.
>
> Having run PBeMs in the past, I noticed the trend you mention, and every
> player worthy of his salt tries to stuff as much action and `do-ables` into
> each turn as they can, attempting to squeeze as much life out of each
> precious action as they are able. If however, the basic precept of the
> player was similar to what you discuss, then I think the DM would suddenly
> find that his time to process turns has significantly dropped. Instead of
> resolving 13 free actions, 1 domain action, 1 lt action, and numerouos war
> moves for each player, the turns would be smaller and more streamlined,
> allowing a faster turn around, and thence a longer game.
>
> War Moves are the priamry reason for PBeM heart attacks IMO. Most players
> don`t understand how the war card system is suppose to work, and when you
> add the hundred and one decisions that need to be made in each phase, their
> use over the internet becomes very limited and at the very least, very time
> consuming. Now, if a DM has to resolve 3 war each turn (that`s 4 moves for
> each player involved, plus additional "response moves" ie.
> stand/retreat/movement), you have just multiplied the work load by whole
> heck of alot. (My math sucs, so I won`t even try ot figure out the actual
> ratio.)
>
> It`s much faster for the DM to resolve a "Create Holding" action, than it is
> to resolve a war. No doubt about it.
>
> SO in my mind, I think the solution to this phenomenon is not to alter the
> time frame of the turn phase (though the 1 action=1 year concept is
> appealling in several aspects), but to change instead, the root style with
> which the masses play the game.
>
> No easy task.
>
> Morg

I think some of the problem is the video game roots of some significant
portion of current PBeM players. I tried The Gorgon`s Alliance, and kind
of didn`t like it for this reason- strategy seemed to revolve around
Create Holding, Rule, Rule, Rule, Rule, Muster Troops, Blitz. Repeat,
vary slightly. Maybe I was playing it wrong, but I doubt it, because this
is the strategy I see people using in PBeMs. It will take a big stick to
curtail this.

There are a lot of common house rules already- one of them is limiting
province Rules to 1/[given time period]. Another is a lag from Muster
Troops to the troops being available, usually on the order of 1 month/GB
muster cost. These combat the BR:TGA strategy from above.

We can take this further. If you REALLY want to curtail the first round
blitz, make Declare War a 12 GB action the first turn. Reduce the cost by
1 GB/turn. After 3 years, it will be down to normal cost.

Or, more seriously, make Declare War and Move Troops variable cost. 3 GB
each in winter, 2 in spring, 1 in summer and fall. In winter it costs 3
GB and 3 RP to declare war, and 3 GB buys you 10 province-units of
movement (5 in hostile territory). Give reasonable bonuses to defenders
in those months, too. Then start your game in the winter- you`ll have six
months of harmony. The silence will be deafening.

I think a part of the problem, in addition to the Sudden PBEM Death
Sydrome, is that the first turn is really your best opportunity to declare
war. Most landed regents in Anuire are barely breaking even on income vs
maintenance, especially with house rules like the Court Costs chart which
say everyone needs a 6 GB court to do Decree and Diplomacy at regular
costs with no penalty. You start the first turn with a treasury though,
so if you succeed at a war your first turn, you`re all right. If you
wait, your treasury gets eaten away to nothing while you try to Rule up
your domain to a sustainable income level, and it`s years before you can
try anything. Most pbems don`t last years, so that comes in again.

There`s a final part of the puzzle I`m seeing. Create Holding is easier
to resolve than a War, because it`s a single die roll. Fix that.

The attacker can prepare a plan of advance- what provinces he will advance
through. If you`re feeling generous, let them adjust it week to week.
For every province in which the defender offers battle, do the following:

Both sides get a d20 roll. Add to each the sum of the war card Attack
Values for the army (or some more appropriate number, this is off the top
of my head), give a bonus to the side that has better terrain or
fortifications. +5 maybe.

Battlewise blood ability gives a +3 bonus. Isn`t there a proficiency in
the Rules book for war? Strategy, maybe. A successful proficiency check
gives a +3 bonus.

Roll both dice. High sum wins. Low man gets routed back a province, or
captured if there`s no line of escape. Cross off some units based on how
much he won the roll by (maybe 1 unit per 4 or 5 spread on the roll).
Done.

Reduce the sucker to some chart look up, addition, and two die rolls (4 if
both sides have the strategy proficiency). Obviously I made these numbers
up off the top of my head, and they`ll need tweaking, but this has a
couple of effects. It makes wars way faster, good for the DM. It makes
them more random and allows less room for anal-retentive control of every
fricking unit- bad for the player, so they`ll want fewer wars.

PBeM isn`t like the tabletop game, where you can sit with a couple of
buddies, shoot the breeze, and push your units around the board. Battles
make a nice change of pace in tabletop. DMs in PBeM end up resolving a
damn lot of battles, basically sitting by themselves staring at a couple
of emails and wondering why they volunteer for this, and they need to do
it fast or people who aren`t in on the battle wonder why the game isn`t
progressing. And they have to do it turn after turn.

Only you can STOP the first round blitzkrieg. :)
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

The fastest way, IMO, to eliminate the turn 1 blitz is to strike down the
ability to military units to destroy holdings. This means irregulars could
be raised in the former ruler`s law holdings of 2 or better, and infantry in
3 or better. With allies back in those territories, this possibility
increases.

Further, I`d not allow investiture without the consent of the defeated
landed ruler. The best you can do without his acquiesces is control the
territiory and tax the people. No RP, no counting the province in contest
actions, and no levies.

So, if Avanil grabs Endier, then Guilder Kalien could sit back in Seaharrow
in Boeruine and keep resistance alive in Endier. It would give new meaning
to the status of being occupied.

Slow the pace of war and the ability to absorb conquered territories and you
quickly begin to present the dilema of all RL conquerors: biting off more
than you can chew.

What if Ghoere decided to move into Endier (pushing Avanil out) and restore
the province to Guilder Kalien. Ghoere could leave a garrison, Kalien could
just resume his rulership, and Avanil would have gained little for their
trouble. Especially if the cost of maintaining the occupation forces was
larger than the tax revenue (which it almost certiainly is).

War is generally a short term gigantic expence, balanced, one hopes, by the
long term benefits of conquest. In BR, you can turn around and start
getting a return on that investment right away.

Wars of aggression should require diplomacy actions to convince the estates
to support you (or effectivly make higher taxes and possibly other actions
immpossible). You may have to get several bodies behind you either because
of the size of your realm or the fact that you don`t have allies to do it
for you. I would make Medoere consult with the estates, the temples, and
the nobility before doing much of anything militarily (besides defend).
Each consultation would, in effect, a full diplomacy action. This is one of
the side problems of having a duel realm.

One question I always like to ponder is, "how unified is a realm
organizationally?" Is Roesone a collection of seven provinces, each
independently ruled by Marlae? If so, she has to convince each province
separately of each policy initiative. Or is Roesone a single polity which
spans seven administrative units ruled collectively from Marlae`s court?

Its possible to make buying a new horse take two years if you want it to.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> Or, more seriously, make Declare War and Move Troops variable cost. 3 GB
> each in winter, 2 in spring, 1 in summer and fall. In winter it costs 3
> GB and 3 RP to declare war, and 3 GB buys you 10 province-units of
> movement (5 in hostile territory). Give reasonable bonuses to defenders
> in those months, too. Then start your game in the winter- you`ll have six
> months of harmony. The silence will be deafening.

Excellent suggestion, for tabletop games as well. For those who want to
see a more feudal-style, summer-only army, consider increasing maintenance
costs by the same multiplier; then it becomes prohibitively expensive to
always keep a large army in being, forcing one to raise it anew each
spring. I`m not sure I`m happy with that last part of the idea, but it
sure would keep armies smaller. I think I might use it if I made it apply
only to those troops located in provinces not invested to their commanding
regent for at least a certain period of time, perhaps a full year;
supplying troops in winter in foreign lands that armies have been marching
around in all summer and fall is supposed to be a major headache.

> There`s a final part of the puzzle I`m seeing. Create Holding is easier
> to resolve than a War, because it`s a single die roll. Fix that.

For PBEMs, I feel this is an extremely good idea. The war mechanic in
standard BR is perhaps the hardest thing to translate to an email-only
campaign (only RP bidding comes close), given the immense amount of
back-and-forth interaction it assumes happens easily and rapidly.

> Reduce the sucker to some chart look up, addition, and two die rolls (4 if
> both sides have the strategy proficiency). Obviously I made these numbers
> up off the top of my head, and they`ll need tweaking, but this has a

Off to a good start -- the concept is quite sound. For a more detailed
set of numbers, look at Solmyr`s "Birthright War Machine", based loosely
on "The War Machine" from the D&D Companion Set:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortr.../brwarmach.html


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 2:37 PM


> Excellent suggestion, for tabletop games as well. For those who
> want to see a more feudal-style, summer-only army, consider
> increasing maintenancecosts by the same multiplier; then it
> becomes prohibitively expensive toalways keep a large army in being.

Ryan mentions some ambivalence when suggesting this modification. One thing
you might do is add one exemption: troops in garrison. Troops that go into
winter quarters (and therefore can`t move) pay normal maintenance. Using
troops in an active way, even just relocating them, costs the greater amount
of maintenance.

I also don`t allow levies in spring or fall turns. Well if someone
insisted, I suppose you could raise levies, but I`d impose the effective
province loss for the next four turns to reflect the lost inputs to
agriculture. Its cheaper by far to hire mercenaries.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Troops that go into winter quarters (and therefore can`t move) pay
> normal maintenance. Using troops in an active way, even just
> relocating them, costs the greater amount of maintenance.

OK, I think I`m sold. =) Making sure to note -- as I`m sure you intended,
but I think deserves an explicit mention -- that occupation of enemy
provinces, counting as a law holding or anything else actually useful
counts as "using troops in an active way" even if no interprovince
movement is involved. Riding around outside in the snow means a lot more
work for the chirurgeons and stableboys, and means you eat through your
supplies much faster.

> I also don`t allow levies in spring or fall turns. Well if someone
> insisted, I suppose you could raise levies, but I`d impose the effective
> province loss for the next four turns to reflect the lost inputs to
> agriculture. Its cheaper by far to hire mercenaries.

Yes, definitely. Taking large numbers of farmers away from the fields at
planting or harvest time ought to be a major disaster. There should also
be a loyalty loss to go along with the GB/RP loss, to reflect the
resentment caused when the regent forces people to starve themselves.


Ryan Caveney

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