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Thread: anything on dwarves
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11-10-2002, 02:18 AM #31
At 05:54 PM 11/9/2002 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > IMO Reflex saves are the most useful in general gaming terms
>
>That`s interesting. In BR, I certainly use Willpower the most, may three
>times as often as the others. This may have something to do with the fact
>that I can`t rember the last time I used a trap, and a great deal of action
>takes place at court. Most of the spells thrown back and forth are of the
>mind control variety.
Yeah, I haven`t actually tracked this, so I wouldn`t argue the
point. Reflex saves being more useful is just my impression. In the last
session I ran Will saves were definitely more important than Reflex saves
even though there were about 50% more Reflex saves because the Will saves
tended to have much more drastic effects. A few dice of damage vs. a charm
spell being the most obvious event....
When one looks at the saving throw progressions of the various classes,
however, the fastest Reflex save progression is a bit more "rare" so if
that scarcity is any influence then it ups the value of that save a bit.
Gary
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11-10-2002, 02:24 AM #32
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When examining the relative value of saves, one thing that comes to mind is that reflex saves generally reduce damage taken; fortitude and will saves are generally of the "save or die" variety; a 1st-level character that succumbs to a sleep spell will probably never wake up again; a finger of death is rather more obvious, etc. For this reason, you could likely compensate for a bad reflex save with high hit points, but a similar compensation could not be made with the other save types; i.e. a fighter won't be hurt as much by a poor reflex save as a wizard would; a finger of death will be equally brutal to both a rogue and a wizard, though, regardless of hit points, if the save is failed.
Jan E. Juvstad.
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11-10-2002, 03:17 AM #33
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On Sun, 2002-11-10 at 05:49, Gary wrote:
At 01:24 AM 11/10/2002 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:
> In 3rd edition, the point-buy stat option is more balanced and fair
> than rolling (though rolling is still considered the standard).
>
>`Balanced` .. oh, don`t even start with that -- the one thing
>that 3e is most definitely worse than all previous D&D systems at is
>`balanced`. Again, though - why? - why do you need balance? - it`s not a
>competition.
I`d contend that 3e really is more balanced than previous editions, though
the distinction is probably rather vague.
To do a similar comparison in a previous edition one
had to come up with the charts, standards and definitions for class
abilities first (a la S&P--but with some sort of legitimate point values
rather than the ones used in that text) then examine the inequities of the
game based on that.
no argument there -- however this data is all there - it`s just not
neatly charted/tabulated etc, the evolution of the classes from D&D to
AD&D to AD&D 2nd ed, to 3rd Ed -- shows that we "knew" which classes
were over-powered, which ones to change etc -- it`s the nature of the
changes along the way which is important.
The 2nd edition authors are the only ones to significantly reduce a
class`s functions (and to do away with some classes altogether). Every
other time, the response has been to "power-up" the weaker class(es).
(or even the monsters) You absolutely cannot get it right this way -
using a one-sided adjustment, you have to set a mark and adjust up or
down to meet it. (of course 2e went and undid all its good work by
releasing the `handbooks`)
Most of those inequities, incidentally, are the
product of pre-D20 thinking in developing 3e. If you take a look at the
imbalanced aspects of 3e they usually come from the portrayal of a 2e or 1e
"sacred cow" into 3e. The magic system, ranger`s 1st level class
abilities, the rogue`s skill points are probably the most glaring examples.
Yes. Most changes have not tried to take anything away. The more people
that you have involved in the design process the less likely it is to be
able to do so - and the 3e project leader and his sponsors were weak* -
their philosophy was "let the people have what they want, we will
package it nicely and sell it to them". This was a good marketing
strategy, but poor game design. (*`weak` from a design development point
of view that is - they were weak sponsors, and weak project leaders)
As for why one would want balance there are two major reasons. First, many
people want a set of balanced characters so each member of the party
represents an equitable portion of the group. That way no one player has a
more significant role during play based on his PC`s stats. Second, having
a system of balanced characters allows the DM to rate numerically the
relative power of the party, which he can use to design adventures. 3e
came up with such a system in their CR/ECL/EL system. While there are
certainly flaws in that system it`s much more consistent than anything that
existed in previous editions.
I find that in practice, a PCs abilities are far less important than the
players abilities. Having said that, I agree that a balanced set of
classes allows for better role-playing, as the character class chosen by
a player is influenced by his/her style and approach rather than trying
to min/max the characters abilities. [Your reasons are good, I agree
with the principles, but the method ...]
3e greatly encourages min/max`ing. It is inherent in the design
philosophy and deeply ingrained into the rule sets (e.g. buy-points
themselves). That such is so, makes a mockery of any attempt to
`balance` out. The aim of the game (3e) or the focus of the players if
you like, is to build a better character, to gain levels, to get a
prestige class .. etc etc -- in other words it becomes a competition. My
main objection to this is that it detracts from role-playing, but it
also fosters imbalance.
Now it`s not possible to avoid this entirely. What can be done however,
is to make it not important!
While most people pay lip-service to "no monty-hauls", many people are
still playing characters at much higher levels than they are actually
entitled to. Now partly this is because everyone (including the DM)
likes a `happy and successful ending`. At the end of your `balanced`
CR/ECL/EL adventure, the players win (because it was designed for them
to win), everyone is happy and successful. They all gain experience and
levels - this is good right?
Wrong. (well not always wrong, but wrong in philosophy) The players
should not get to win every time, you have to have them experience and
role-play the whole gamut of adventuring - in fact one way to keep the
adventure alive is to beat them up all the time - keep them moving from
one disaster to the next (read your fantasy books - not the D&D ones).
Have them investigate a wizards tower, get beaten up - and have that
wizard (and/or his minions and agents) on their trail from one week to
the next. They players have to learn when to run, when to fight, and
when to beg and plead, when to cut their losses, and when .... to be
heroic .... not to be heroic all the time. For a truly good adventure is
never balanced - most of the time the heroes are dead heroes. But did
they have fun? because that is the real aim and goal of role-playing.
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11-10-2002, 03:37 AM #34
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Yes. Most changes have not tried to take anything away. The more people
that you have involved in the design process the less likely it is to be
able to do so - and the 3e project leader and his sponsors were weak* -
their philosophy was "let the people have what they want, we will
package it nicely and sell it to them". This was a good marketing
strategy, but poor game design. (*`weak` from a design development point
of view that is - they were weak sponsors, and weak project leaders)
While most people pay lip-service to "no monty-hauls", many people are
still playing characters at much higher levels than they are actually
entitled to.
How exactly you construe a system for building balanced encounters (the CR system) into being a "monty haul engine" is quite beyond me; the DMG explicitly handles several different campaign models for setting up encounters - it recommends specifically that about 5% of all encounters be overpowering ones, where the PCs will "probably lose" - the point here is that, if the DM creates such an encounter, he should keep in mind that PCs must either be able to escape somehow, avoide the encounter, or be able to win - otherwise, there is no fun, is there? The DM might as well say - "well, you die."
Most of your points seem to have nothing to do with 3e as a game system at all, but rather certain styles of playing, which can be applied to any system.
As for the game balance issue, 3e does encourage minmaxing - the designers even said so themselves; the core system is pretty robust, and will hold up to a pretty fair amount as such; it is when all the variant rules and accessories come into play that a lot of headaches can arise. Qualifying for prestige classes, if done _right_, is an excellent role-playing opportunity, and a good way to support mechanically weak character concepts; the sagely wizard/loremaster being a good example.Jan E. Juvstad.
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11-10-2002, 03:37 AM #35
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 8:24 PM
> When examining the relative value of saves, one thing that comes
> to mind is that reflex saves generally reduce damage taken; fortitude
> and will saves are generally of the "save or die" variety.
This may be true in general. I don`t really know. IMC, mind-affecting
enchantments are the threat to PC`s requiring Will saves. For NPC`s there
is also the check to see if PC persuasion has been effective.
During my last session, the PC`s went to meet an old sage (expert/druid) who
was supposed to have some key information regarding the location of the
Scroll of Grey-Cloak. He had a hidden agenda, and wanted some revenge taken
on an old rival of his who was connected with the adventure. The sage
burned an incense which had been used as a spell storage device, like an
infusion, but inhaled rather than consumed. The incense was charged with a
Suggestion spell, and the sage advised the party to kill his rival on their
path to obtaining the Scroll. Everyone made their Will save except the
rogue, who did, BTW, end up killing the sage`s rival. This will have
consequences down the road for the party and/or the rogue.
This kind of thing is the typical cause for a Will save IMC.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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11-10-2002, 04:41 AM #36
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On Sun, 2002-11-10 at 05:59, Mark_Aurel wrote:
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Mark_Aurel wrote:
Peter, in that very lengthy post of yours, you make lots of references
to the fact that you think 3e isn`t a good game, that it has "inherited
numerous flaws," etc etc - yet, I don`t see much backup for it at all.
Remember, when debating the systems, your _house rules_ are _irrelevant_
- such as your reference to your allowing giants to carry more than the
tables indicated in previous editions. If you`re saying that 1e or 2e
is somehow better than 3e, then applying a house rule to show why, your
argument doesn`t stick very well together. What you`re really doing
isn`t comparing 3 to 1/2e, but comparing it to your own homebrew,
which you will inevitably like better, since you made it yourself.
In respect of the particular argument, I wasn`t suggesting that 2e was
`better` than 3e - but pointing out that the flaws from 2e are still
there while the improvements of 3e haven`t addressed the issue. There is
no rule in 1e or 2e for how much a giant can carry, in fact not even for
how much a human with giant strength can carry - but that`s nit-picking.
The 2e rules for encumbrance appear to be based on human bodyweight, but
this is never actually stated.
Actually, the main thrust of my original post had nothing to do with 3e.
It was aimed at some 2e specific comments.
3e uses the same mechanics pretty consistently - thus, it _is_ more
internally coherent throughout, even though there are definitely relics
and sacred cows from previous editions. A system where you roll 1d6/1d10
for initiative, 1d20 (low) for proficiencies, 1d% (low) for thief skills,
and 1d20 (high) for saves and attack rolls does not seem very consistent
or elegant, now, does it?
Oh you`ll get no argument from me that earlier versions have consistent
mechanics. It`s a mish-mash of table-top battle rules - HP come from
ther, naval ship combat rules - that`s where AC comes from, and other
stuff. However, using a d20 for everything doesn`t make 3e consistent
either.
So, (ahem) where does the human range start on each chart? And where
does it (the normal human range) end? ---- see the point yet? ---
and; Q. did you actually read my earlier post? apples and oranges etc.
what point you`re referring to, or trying to make. "apples and oranges etc."
Fine, a typical obscurement device for dodging the actual issue - does the 3e
system for ability scores work better and easier than 2e/1e (barring any of
your favored house rules)?
If I had to answer yes or no. No. It doesn`t work better. But it`s no
worse either.
Okay, let`s put it into an example.
If your character had a 10 constitution, and you had 5 buy-points
left, for which you could have either (a) 1 point of constitution;
or (B) a suit of leather armor (assuming you have no armor and can
gain full benefit from wearing leather armor); -- which would you
choose?
What if your character had a 18 constitution? -- would that change
your answer? If so, why? Why would 1 point of constitution hold
greater value at 18 than at 10?
My first point is that +1 does not have the same value in all contexts.
The statement that "+1 -1 = 0 is balanced" is therefore incorrect.
Even if you trade equal value points between abilities this is not a
fair trade either. Another example:
A character with a 10 constitution and an 11 charisma has +1 to con
and -1 to charisma. This would be numerically a clean (or equal)
trade. (But only if the distribution of both statistics were the
same e.g. 3-18, a dwarf with different ranges and distributions does
not get a fair trade)
But of far greater impact is that in order to standardize the range
of 3-18 for humans across all six abilities, a scale must be
attached to each table. This scale is different for each ability
score. We set the minimum point of the scale to the value 3, and the
maximum point on the scale to the value 18 - in order to derive
values within the scale. That the actual value of each scale is
identical is a preposterous notion - thus one point of strength (an
`apple`) and one point of constitution (an `orange`) have different
values too. So even given equal distributions (previous para), and
equal starting positions - even then -- +1 con -1 str does not
balance.
You can`t use general maths on ability scores and get `meaningful`
results. Suppose you were filling out a survey with a question.
Q. How do you feel about President Bush`s performance?
(1) Highly approve
(2) Somewhat approve
(3) Neither approve or disapprove
(4) Somewhat disapprove
(5) Greatly disapprove
In statistics analysis a variable `approval` (cf strength) may be
assigned a value of 2.3 based on the responses from a number of
respondents. What does this value (2.3) tell us? Not much actually. What
if the value was 5.0? -- then our scale was wrong.
Okay so what? The average human strength is 10.5 -- if an ogre is on
average twice as strong as a man then the average ogre strength is 21
right? Wrong, you`re applying maths to a statistic again. The value 10.5
isn`t a measured value, it`s a chosen statistical mean. It`s the mean
value over the distribution of 3d6. Each population (group of measured
values) will have it`s own distribution and mean. So, to treat all races
consistently they would ALL have ranges of 3-18. But we don`t, we have a
human norm 3-18 and ALL are measured against that statistic. The
problems occur when there is a creature that is stronger/more
intelligent/wiser/more charismatic etc than any possible human; or if
the statistical distribution of the sub-population (at either end) does
not span any points. BTW the implication here is that if 1 is the lowest
value then 20 is the absolute highest possible value - so once you have
something that is "stronger than the strongest human" - they have a
strength of 20.
So was it `right` to use a statistical range for strength et al?
Actually, why not? (as long as you don`t draw any wrong conclusions
about it). Is it right to extend this table to values like 45 for an
old wyrm? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
And now, just to spoil the whole bunch of apples. Strength is the
only statistic for which measured values have ever been given (But
only in 1e, not in 2e or 3e). Whether those measurements were scaled
to the 3-18 range or whether all the ability score ranges were
derived from the range for strength I do not know.
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11-10-2002, 05:09 AM #37
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Ok, fair enough - you're basically stating that you don't like the way statistical ranges for ability scores work in 3e; I'm not really clear on what exactly is your purpose in this particular case, though...
If you consider ability scores to be based on some absolute value (i.e. 10.5 = IQ 100, a certain lifting capacity, etc), then you can extend them indefinitely in one direction (towards infinite - infinitely strong, infinitely smart, etc), but only to 0 in the other. If the value of 10.5 is the baseline average human value in any given category, then you can generally extrapolate from that, and create a scale that goes from 0 and up towards infinite, correct?
To put this in a more specific perspective; you mentioned the example of a human and an ogre. Let the human at 10.5 serve as the basepoint. The ogre, at 21, is then roughly 8 times as strong, or would be only 4 times as strong if it were at the same size as the human. A human with a strength of 5 is at half the strength of the one at 10; underneath this, the basic system of doubling in strength every 5 points breaks apart. I do not, however, see any inherent flaw in extrapolating towards the infinite, an abstract value to measure a creature's strength, agility, or mental acuity, based on a human norm.
Could a creature be ten times as strong as a human? Certainly. Can this be expressed along the same scale? Seeems simple enough to extrapolate - a strength of 27 or so is roughly 10 times as strong as one of 10. A great dragon's strength is similarly measurable, along the same scale.
The other issue you seem to touch is more vague; whether creatures would follow the same range of statistics as humans, to which the answer is most likely not. I.e. a creature whose average intelligence is 1 should not vary from 0 (lowest possible) to 10 (3d6-8, as extrapolated from 9-1). In this case, rolling 1d3-1 or something similar would seem a more apt range of statistical distribution, though perhaps a needless complication.
What I mainly get from reading your latest post is that you're assuming that ability scores are supposed to be a statistical average measure, rather than measure an absolute value of an ability; i.e. a given range for any race, and a different scale for each. Not necessarily a bad assumption, as some types of intelligence can be as different as their level (i.e. mind flayers to humans). In all cases, though, it's a tremendous, though very playable, simplification.
The second issue, the one of constitution; is a +1 modifier at 18 really worth more than one at 10? That is probably a trickier issue than you're making it out to be; as ability scores get higher and higher, the relative difference between scores becomes smaller and smaller; the difference between a +14 and a +15 modifier isn't really as earth-shattering as the difference between +1 and +2, relatively speaking. In 3e game terms, a +1 bonus to a 10 and an 18 Con really does not grant anything dissimilar; the only possible gain is fulfilling the requirements for certain feats, which has a cost of its own. This, of course, is an entirely mechanical viewpoint - but you're not really getting anything for either value; the +1 is probably generally worth more the lower the ability is to begin with, relatively speaking. The coolness factor of having a 19, of course, is far higher than having an 11, and the score of 19 itself is a LOT better than one of 11, but the modifier itself is not really worth more to either character.Jan E. Juvstad.
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11-10-2002, 05:27 AM #38
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On Sun, 2002-11-10 at 14:37, Mark_Aurel wrote:
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Mark_Aurel wrote:
Yes. Most changes have not tried to take anything away. The more
people
that you have involved in the design process the less likely it is to be
able to do so - and the 3e project leader and his sponsors were weak* -
their philosophy was "let the people have what they want, we will
package it nicely and sell it to them". This was a good marketing
strategy, but poor game design. (*`weak` from a design development point
of view that is - they were weak sponsors, and weak project leaders)
You make it seem like a virtue to sell a game that is unplayable or that
people don`t want to play...
Does your DM give the party everything they want simply because they
want it?
That`s not what I said at all -- and I suspect you know it -- don`t go
putting meaning into my words that wasn`t even vaguely there.
While most people pay lip-service to "no monty-hauls", many people are
still playing characters at much higher levels than they are actually
entitled to.
How exactly do you determine which level PCs are "entitled" to?
Are you simply applying a 1e/2e paradigm to 3e level advancement?
Almost sounds like it.
Sounds EXACTLY like it. Your comments prove my point exactly about
competition and balance. The attitude that bigger more powerful
characters are better and more fun or just plain more desirable proves
the point about competition. People have been doing it all along - 3e
just makes it `official`.
Understand that I`m writing from a role-playing game perspective -- not
a multi-level dungeon hack. Here`s a link that might explain the
difference between a role-playing game and 3e D&D (from one of the
consultants to 3e D&D!) http://www.jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/rpg.html
How exactly you construe a system for building balanced encounters
(the CR system) into being a "monty haul engine" is quite beyond me;
the DMG explicitly handles several different campaign models for setting
up encounters - it recommends specifically that about 5% of all encounters
be overpowering ones, where the PCs will "probably lose" - the point
here is that, if the DM creates such an encounter, he should keep in mind
that PCs must either be able to escape somehow, avoide the encounter, or
be able to win - otherwise, there is no fun, is there? The DM might as
well say - "well, you die."
5% is `probably lose` ?? --- and that`s `balanced` ? Are you serious?
Did you read what you wrote? Not even 5% will lose? So the odds are 19
to 1 or better for the party? and even then they should be able to
escape? ... Now if I could just get those odds at the races - I get to
bet $100 at 19:1, and if I lose then I should get my money back - hmmm,
sounds fair - say are you a bookie?
Most of your points seem to have nothing to do with 3e as a game system
at all, but rather certain styles of playing, which can be applied to
any system.
This seems to be the standard fall back argument when there are no valid
points - that it`s a matter of style - well it`s not role-playing and
it`s not monopoly. You could play monopoly and make the winning
condition to be completing 10 laps of the board too - I doubt anyone
would believe you played a game of monopoly though.
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11-10-2002, 10:50 AM #39
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On Sun, 2002-11-10 at 16:09, Mark_Aurel wrote:
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Mark_Aurel wrote:
Ok, fair enough - you`re basically stating that you don`t like the way
statistical ranges for ability scores work in 3e; I`m not really clear on
what exactly is your purpose in this particular case, though...
I didn`t say I didn`t like it. What I said was:
(1) You can`t apply general math to it and have sensible results
(2) Third Edition hasn`t solved the original problem with a 3d6
human based range -- for creatures that are not `almost` human. For
creatures that are `almost human`, there is no problem - or at least
it`s somewhat solvable. In fact, 3e has it all wrong; by doing so
they invalidate what was right in the first place -- better to leave
it as it was (imperfect) than to fiddle and really screw it up as
they have done.
If you consider ability scores to be based on some absolute value (i.e.
10.5 = IQ 100, a certain lifting capacity, etc), then you can extend
them indefinitely in one direction (towards infinite - infinitely
strong, infinitely smart, etc), but only to 0 in the other. If the
value of 10.5 is the baseline average human value in any given
category, then you can generally extrapolate from that, and create
a scale that goes from 0 and up towards infinite, correct?
Wrong! - you really didn`t read the earlier post did you? All wrong.
100% incorrect. Not even close. Dead last. Completely lacking in
accuracy in any way shape or form. I don`t know what level of math you
are up to - so understanding it may not be your fault - this is
reasonably serious math, early graduate level stuff on average, beyond
most high school math. Does NOT use what is referred to as `general
math`. Commutability of operands does not apply - standard linear values
do not apply.
The ability score ranges of 3-18 - BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION - do NOT
measure a goddamn thing. Their relationship to an absolute linear value
cannot be determined with extra information.
e.g. 45% of all people in the world are men. Does this mean that 45
of the next 100 persons you see will be men? of course not. What`s
the probability that at least 43 of the next 100 will be men? - A. I
need more information to work that out!
To take your example; An IQ of 100 is defined to be the average human IQ
- however this does not tell us a lot. A value of 10.5 is the
statistical average (mean) of 3d6. Can we then equate them? (yes, but it
takes more information and quite a bit of work) Assume for the moment
that IQ is normally distributed (it`s not but we`re all good at make
believe), and the the standard deviation is 10 (the usual figure for
IQ). What would be the intelligence score of a character with an IQ of
120?
z = (120 - 100)/10 ; therefore z = 2
P(z <=2) = 0.9772
which equates to an intelligence score of 16.8 (16 covers ratings
from .95 to .98 approx), Note: the values between 10.5 and 16.8 are
NOT linearly distributed - this calculation does not allow the
assumption that 20/(16.8 - 10.5) is the scale of the intelligence
range.
Note: to perform the above calculations you`ll need access to
statistical tables, and you`ll need to calculate the distribution
of 3d6 (which isn`t too hard).
To sum up; IF (it`s a big IF) we had a scale, a measurement stand, a
distribution and all statistics of such a distribution for each ability
score, we could create measurement values for our ability statistics.
THEN we could use these in mathematical constructs using general math
(although I doubt anyone would really care or bother), BUT even then the
strength of a stone giant - or anything else beyond human ranges - would
be 19 because statistically they all fall into the tail.
To put this in a more specific perspective; you mentioned the example
of a human and an ogre. Let the human at 10.5 serve as the basepoint.
The ogre, at 21, is then roughly 8 times as strong, or would be only
4 times as strong if it were at the same size as the human. A human
with a strength of 5 is at half the strength of the one at 10;
Okay, I see where you are confused. You need a good book on statistical
analysis. It`s beyond me to teach you this quickly. But quickly, what`s
the max press of a STR 5 character? A.25 ... And of a STR 6 character?
A. 55 (These are 2nd Ed figures, I don`t have a 3e PH handy, but they`ll
have a similar if not identical value). SO, a human with a strength of 6
is more than twice as strong as one with a strength of 5. Once again,
--- you can`t use general maths to manipulate ability stats.
underneath this, the basic system of doubling in strength every 5
points breaks apart. I do not, however, see any inherent flaw in
extrapolating towards the infinite, an abstract value to measure
a creature`s strength, agility, or mental acuity, based on a
human norm.
Once you`ve read up on the maths involved you will. You don`t see any
flaw in doubling ever 5 points - once you know what an SD is you will.
You`ll need something on the moments of a distribution, including mean,
variance and skew; as well the basics of determining if two
distributions are different, and nonparametric or rank correlation.
What I mainly get from reading your latest post is that you`re assuming
that ability scores are supposed to be a statistical average measure,
rather than measure an absolute value of an ability; i.e. a given range
I wonder where I could have got that idea? (What I find amazing is that
you have the opposite idea - that they measure an absolute value - try
any players handbook, or DMG for an explanation of what strength,
intelligence and the other ability scores are)
for any race, and a different scale for each. Not necessarily a bad
assumption, as some types of intelligence can be as different as their
level (i.e. mind flayers to humans). In all cases, though, it`s a
tremendous, though very playable, simplification.
The second issue, the one of constitution; is a +1 modifier at 18
really worth more than one at 10?
I chose those values because (as I wrote) these are the points where the
difference is at its most extreme. It doesn`t matter though as to how
big the difference is, the fact that it exists at all is enough. The
fact is that a +1 to an 18 is actually worth more than a +1 to a 17, but
not as much more as a +1 to a 10 --- but still more. Yes, it is trickier
- and a simple buy-point system doesn`t cut it.
That is probably a trickier issue
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11-10-2002, 05:31 PM #40Originally posted by Peter Lubke
For a truly good adventure is never balanced - most of the time the heroes are dead heroes.
Besides, the first thing of roleplaying is fun! To kill a group every time, they get to 5th level will end up slaughtering the DM ;)May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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