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  1. #1
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    Ok, this may be a really radical idea but does regency need to be based on class in 3E? With the ability for characters to multiclass thier seems no need to impose class limits on regency collection. I would suggest regency being based solely on holdings established and not have any penelties or benefits associated with class. Any thoughts or opinions?
    Eat this!

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Slaine the Horned God" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 4:53 PM


    > Ok, this may be a really radical idea but does regency need to be
    > based on class in 3E? With the ability for characters to multiclass
    > thier seems no need to impose class limits on regency collection. I
    > would suggest regency being based solely on holdings established
    > and not have any penelties or benefits associated with class. Any
    > thoughts or opinions?

    This has come up before, and I`d guess that its only a minority that applies
    the original class limits. The majority of players apply one of two fixes.
    Either they dropped class limits completly, or they relaxed class limits.
    IMC, I give rulers full access to regency for one or two types of holdings
    based on their character concept. All other holdings generate half regency.
    I don`t believe you can be all things to all people.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    I don't agree to this at all. Just because someone can multi-class does not mean that they will automatically do so. How many people out there have played a fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard? Anyone? To begin with you suffer a -40% penalty to your XP, and how many people are willing to accept that, and secondly, you are noticebly behind a single-classed character of the same level.

    Also, if you keep the regency based on class system, then it forces a player to do this, should he wish to gain regency from every holding (either that or hire some loyal vassals) while if, as you suggest, the system is made free for all, then he doesn't need to do this and can remain a single-classed character AND still get the regency he wants.

    Anyway, in most cases the regent is actually short changing himself doing things this way. Take Darien Avan for example. He has the strongest bloodline in Anuire (70). From his provinces and law holdings (in Avanil only) he gets 74 RP, which is more than he can collect. If he multi-classed and took over the guilds, temples, and sources, he would still only get 70 RP. However, as it stands, he has a pet guilder who (I guess) would grant him a few RP each turn as part of the vassalage agreement. He has two temples to demand RP and Gold from, and an allied wizard. Sure, he could take command of these personally, and would gain bonus gold, but he would also have to defend them against attack (contest actions) with a limited RP collection of 70 RP. A combined attack from several enemy regents would quickly bring him low without a single army needing to sent into battle.

    Remember gold isn't everything. A regent should also be trying to maximise his RP collection as well, and trying to personally control every holding does not work!
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Orginally posted by kgauck
    This has come up before, and I`d guess that its only a minority that applies
    the original class limits. The majority of players apply one of two fixes.
    Either they dropped class limits completly, or they relaxed class limits.
    IMC, I give rulers full access to regency for one or two types of holdings
    based on their character concept. All other holdings generate half regency.
    I don`t believe you can be all things to all people.
    Really? I would have thought it the other way around. The minority drop the class limits and the majority of BR campaigns keep the class limits in place. Personally, I would be in favour of restricting them even further, especially in regard to temple of source holdings. I would require that anyone creating a temple or source holding actually be a wizard or priest first!
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    My point is this: What is inherent in a character class that would make members of that class a good ruler? Couldn't a particularly pious fighter be just as capable of ruling a temple as a cleric? Would the followers of that temple be less likely to worship there? The same reasoning applies to other holdings and class combinations. The only holding that a class requirement makes sense for me would be for a Source holding as these holdings generate no GB in and of themselves and are primarialy a focus for realm spells.
    Eat this!

  6. #6
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    I guess it would depend what you see a holding as being. Personally, I think they are more than just the buildings or strutures involved.

    For example, a temple holding is more than just a collection of churches, it is a link between the people and their god. Only a cleric is familiar with the rituals and prayers needed to run such a holding, and to keep the faithful in touch with their god, so only a cleric receives regency. If you prefer, in this case the regency is a reflection of the people's faith in their god and in the temple. No fighter, no matter how pious, can provide this link and so fighters do not receive regency from temple holdings, and personally I don't think they should be allow to create one.

    Guild holdings are the only ones I would agree that perhaps could be available to all classes as not all merchants are necessarily rogues.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Raesene Andu" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 7:35 PM

    > Really? I would have thought it the other way around. The minority
    > drop the class limits and the majority of BR campaigns keep the class
    > limits in place.

    My guess is that the largest share of BR campaigns allow some multi-classing
    access to regency, but don`t allow unfettered access. I should point out
    that even just multi-classing itself goes beyond the 2e BR rules. For
    example, I`d make Rogr Aglondier an Expert 3/Wizard 3, spending his Expert
    skill points on administrative and governing skills. As such I`d allow him
    to collect regency for his province, his law, and his sources. That gives
    him a potential RP collection of 28, and a realized RP collection of 21.
    Under the 2e materials, Rogr collected 14 RP from exposed source holdings.
    Without some tinkering, neither Rogr, nor his heir (a Pr) would be able to
    maintain their realm.

    > I would be in favour of restricting them even further, especially in
    > regard to temple of source holdings. I would require that anyone
    > creating a temple or source holding actually be a wizard or priest first!

    I restrict temple holdings to any divine spellcasters, and sources to any
    arcane or druidical spellcasters. Bards are arcane spellcasters unless they
    elect to devote themselves to Erik, Laerme, or Cuiraécen. A few characters
    described in the materials have to be multiclassed, such as Tihara min
    Buseri, leader of the Shield of Halaia, or collect only half regency.
    Having her collect no regency seems too curious. I`d be inclined to leave
    her a fighter with half regency, but I`d swap her Wisdom and Charisma
    scores, making her an extreamly charismatic leader to compensate a bit for
    the under-performing regency.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Slaine the Horned God" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:32 PM

    > My point is this: What is inherent in a character class that would
    > make members of that class a good ruler? Couldn`t a particularly
    > pious fighter be just as capable of ruling a temple as a cleric?

    Would the bold vos warriors follow any but a warrior or a priest of Belinik?
    I don`t think so. Without some restrictions, presumably a rogue or bard
    could collect full regency in Vasgaard without any problems. You suggest
    that the fighter must be pious to expect success in running a temple. How
    do you measure such piety? Skill points in Knowledge (Religion)? The
    player declaring that he is? The character role played in a priestly
    fashion? Having a couple of levels as a cleric?

    Because no class limits means I can be a beer swilling, impious brute
    indifferent to learning and still run a temple to Avani. Such is why I
    suggest character concept is important. Giving half regency for other
    holdings means that if I run my domain well, I can maintain my holdings, but
    if I don`t I shall lose it.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
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    On Sun, 2002-10-13 at 07:53, Slaine the Horned God wrote:

    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1038

    Slaine the Horned God wrote:
    Ok, this may be a really radical idea but does regency need to be based on
    class in 3E? With the ability for characters to multiclass thier seems no
    need to impose class limits on regency collection. I would suggest regency
    being based solely on holdings established and not have any penelties or
    benefits associated with class. Any thoughts or opinions?

    Nope. It does not. But ... to keep a balance between the various domains
    you do need "something". Otherwise all domains begin to look identical -
    there will be no independent guilders - all will be realm rulers as
    well. I use a `class-less` system as follows.

    I calculate 6 values for each regent:
    (1) Their total province levels (or loyal population holdings if you
    like)
    (2) their total guild holdings - plus the value of all trade routes
    (3) their total temple holdings - (plus some bonuses, 1 for every realm
    in which the faith is present, 2 for every realm in which the faith is
    the state faith)
    (4) the regents total source holdings (plus 1 for every ley line
    established)
    (5) the regents total law holdings (plus 1 for every military unit or
    military ship owned)
    (6) the regents bloodline score

    The highest value of (1) through (5) determines the `type` of regent.
    When people think about the regent - more of them think of the regent as
    a realm regent if their total province levels exceed all the others.
    Rogr Aglondier of Ilien would be thought of as a Wizard first and a
    realm regent second, `the Wizard of Ilien` more often than as the `Count
    of Ilien` for example.

    The highest of all 6 values is the regents regency value for the domain
    turn. They have a RP total at the start of each domain turn equal to
    their regency value at the start of the turn.

    The advantage of specializing is that with all your eggs in one basket
    you have more RP for your effort. The advantage of having a more
    generalized domain is that you are more flexible. Characters with higher
    bloodline scores are `natural` leaders and gain an RP advantage until
    their domain is equal to their bloodline. Hence blooded characters will
    seek their `natural` level of leadership.

    Note that it is possible to have no holdings, no provinces, and no
    bloodline and still have regency value if you control or create a
    military unit or a level one holding. It is possible to have a regency
    value with no holdings, no provinces and no units if you have a
    bloodline.

    A characters bloodline has a percentage chance of improving by one point
    equal to any positive difference between their regency value and their
    bloodline divided by their bloodline. e.g. El-Hadid has a regency value
    of 35 and a bloodline of 10, for a (35-10)/35 or 5/7 chance of improving
    his bloodline to 11. Characters who have no bloodline and gain some
    regency will have a 100% chance of gaining a bloodline with score 1 e.g.
    (x-0)/x = 100%.

    w.r.t. character class.
    Only Wizards can use sources to cast spells. Any class can use temples
    to cast spells as these realm spells are cast in the temples by the
    priests with the faith domain regent as the focus - he need not be a
    priest himself. Only rogues get a free espionage action - which counts
    as a character action.

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  10. #10
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    Hello!

    Slaine the Horned God wrote:

    >This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1038
    >Slaine the Horned God wrote:
    > Ok, this may be a really radical idea but does regency need to be based on class in 3E? With the ability for characters to multiclass thier seems no need to impose class limits on regency collection. I would suggest regency being based solely on holdings established and not have any penelties or benefits associated with class. Any thoughts or opinions?
    >
    Mmmh.
    1st Thought: The limit of collecting RP only from certain holdings is
    not that important - most regents will have or gain during the game more
    holdings than they could collect RP from, because their bloodline is not
    large enough - and in the case of most regents bloodline can´t grow as
    fast as a successfull realm with the 3E higher conditions to raise
    bloodline (instead of 2E spending your bloodline +1 in RP to gain 1
    additional point of bloodline, you have to spend in 3E nearly twice that
    amount).

    So a limit to collect RP would be noticeable only where a regent would
    control few holdings that fit to his class and lots of holdings that fit
    to another class. That can only be a problem with holdings, as anyone
    can collect RP from provinces (at least in 2E). And that problem occurs
    not really very often, does it?

    2nd thought: The 2E Birthright had limits on multiclassing that were
    more restricting than 2E AD&D (e.g. the demi-humans all could no more
    than have 2 classes - instead of 4 as in 2E AD&D).
    That 3E D&D has even more options to multiclass, however that does not
    mean that a 3E Birthright has to abandon it´s own restrictions to
    multiclassing.

    3rd thought:
    Why have a fighter gain RP from temples? A cleric or paladin, sure - but
    a plain fighter?
    I assume that the wish to gain RP from temples is a way to create the
    "Overlord" character - master of all provinces, and all holdings in his
    realm, able to collect RP from all and who has no need of vassals or
    other regents in his realm...

    That is not a rule that would encourage team-work of say a guild regent
    and a province regent or a temple regent - why would your overlord allow
    a guilder in his province, when the overlord can collect RP from these
    guilds and behold: from the traderoutes as well?

    Teamwork is however encouraged, when a specialized guilder can reap
    benefits from guilds and trade routes that no other character can hope
    to achieve. When a priest can gain RP from temples that no fighter can
    hope to get, when a wizard gains RP from sources that the fighter has no
    access to, THEN will the fighter province ruler be encouraged to
    cooperate with the other regents - sure he may force them to become his
    vassals, or ally with them. But there will be player-interaction and no
    "I collect RP from everything, I rule it all" character...


    IMO I would go even further: Not only limit RP collection on bloodline
    AND classes, but also limit GB collection on classes. A specialized 2E
    Guilder or 3E Aristocrat (guilder) should IMO be able to create more
    gold with a guild than a fighter who also runs his province, has spend
    most of his time training with his weapons and armour and assuming he
    acts in-character spending his time hunting for sport as the traditional
    spare-time-activity for regents of old...
    bye
    Michael Romes

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