Presitige Classes for Regents

[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by geeman

>Also, I never said that they were meant to be better versions of existing classes

No, wait. I did say that. Oh, well, it`s still true.

If existing prestige classes are boring for you, you choose a prestige class. PrC's aren't only more powerful version of an existing class, they're a specialisation (and the exit for boredom).

But a PrC for regents? If the regent has a character class, choose a PrC for his class. (If he is a follower of Haelyn with some spellcaster levels, choose Lawbringer)

Halflings? If your Halfling is a rogue with sorcerer levels choose the arcane trickster. Otherwise I dont know...

[Birthright-L]

> I`m curious what folks in the BR community feel are
appropriate 3e prestige classes to BR? Which would
you guys use? What kinds of prestige classes should
there be? <

> Gary

I am one of those folk who like the concept of
prestige classes, but feel that they are a tad
overused and/or misunderstood. That said, I appreciate
the plethora of those that already exist. That is
because I like looking them over and seeing what the
playing group can come up with if we decide to try to
craft some sort of prestige class.
I think that most prestige classes would need
some degree of rework to fit into any campaign world.
BR is one that would require a bit more than normal,
considering its special nature (especially with
regards to its various `levels` of play, (i.e.,
individual, group, and realm). As someone else pointed
out, the NPC classes listed in the DMG can fulfill
most potential roles very well.
From the DMG, I think the Assassin, Loremaster,
and Shadowdancer prestige classes can fit in nicely
with regards to a typical BR campaign. Some tweaking
would be probable, but nothing major (so it strikes
me, anyway).
Once we move away from the DMG, I think the
rework level will be much higher, simply because
taking an already established prestige class and
fitting it into a BR campaign will require some
changes, at the least (this is true of any campaign
outside of the one that it has been created for).
Prestige classes strike me as being `custom-fit`
creations, so to speak.
There are exceptions of course, such as the Fist
of Hextor from the Sword & Fist book. A decent one for
the humanoids methinks, and requiring little rework to
fit in snugly.
Speaking for myself, BR has always been
problematic for me with regards to D&D characters.
This is because it tries to have rules for both the
small-scale and large-scale campaigns. Sometimes, the
two do not mesh well. Prestige classes sort of falls
into this situation for my group. we have yet to come
up with a workable solution, but we are having fun
trying. ;)

Darkke


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[Mark_Aurel]

What I`m saying is that the prestige class concept is assumed to be
based on particular organizations in particular campaign settings. Because
there`s no limit to the number of such organizations and campaigns possible
that assumption means there is no reason why there shouldn`t be a similarly
endless number of prestige classes to express them.

The thing is, only certain organizations, or types thereof, warrant prestige classes. In BR, strictly speaking, pretty much every domain can be considered an organization - however, only a very few of those have enough character or flavor to tie a prestige class to them. We don't need "guild member type 1" and "guild member type 2" prestige classes.

Articulating two categories of prestige classes would help
considerably, and deal with most of the objections you`ve raised to the
concept.

I don't really have any objections to the concept of prestige classes. I have some objections to the way the concept is being treated.

Also, I never said that they were meant to be better versions of existing
classes, but since you brought it up that actually is what they are meant
to be; better and more directed versions of existing classes. It says so
pretty definitively in the DMG "A character with a prestige class is more
specialized yet perhaps slightly better than one without one."

Now you are being unnecessarily argumentative; I already stated that prestige classes are supposed to be more specialized, but not strictly better. The quote you used from the DMG is also out of context, when read solely on its own. The DMG also goes in-depth about how to balance prestige classes with requirements, and advice in both the DMG, and given in Dragon and elsewhere by Monte Cook expounds upon this idea. If you do not consider the requirements involved, prestige classes can be considered to be "better." I do, however, tend to consider the requirements as an essential part of the concept, and thus, prestige classes aren't really stronger than the regular classes - just more specialized.

The DMG says that
prestige classes "set characters in the milieu and put them in the context
of the world." That`s a far cry from saying prestige classes must all be
anchored in the game world.

I fail to see the difference here. "Put them in the context of the world" and "anchored in the game world" sounds pretty synonymous to me. To use an example, I don't think that blade dancers, from OA, would be appropriate for Anuire, according to either statement.

How are you picturing using feats in place of prestige classes?

Okay.

Bismarck-wannabe [General]
You are good at playing domains against each other.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Diplomacy domain actions.

Orator of the Old School [General]
You are good at rousing the public.
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on Agitate domain actions.

Scrooging [General]
You are good at keeping wages low.
Benefit: You reduce your domain maintenance costs by 25%.

Maybe a bigger bonus would be in order to make the feats more attractive, or making them a bit more generally applicable, but that's the idea of it.

I think your idea about writing prestige classes would reduce them a bit, to being simple power-ups in no real context. Of course, that can be a valid way to design something - think of a cool ability, then tie it to something in the game world. However, separating the prestige classes being written from their organizational or in-world basis would probably just exaggerate the problems that are already becoming apparent - that prestige classes are becoming more powerful with successive products. The organizational ties that most prestige classes in the core books have are slight enough that you can use them as written for the most part - if they are appropriate. Most aren't, and you shouldn't expect them to be, as they are supposed to catch the length and width of campaign types. For campaigns of a less exact flavor and more of the "pulp dungeon crawl" standard, like Greyhawk, most, if not all, prestige classes will fit in easily. For Birthright, this is trickier. What we need isn't that they write the core books in a different way, but that we have a pool of standardized BR prestige classes to draw from.

[Eosin the Red]

---- Original Message -----
From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Presitige Classes for Regents [2#1017]

~~~What we need isn`t that they write the core books in a different way, but
that we have a pool of standardized BR prestige classes to draw from.~~~


Exactly. Too many people think everything has to be available or worse,
used. A very specific list of PrCs and the organizions/groups/things/events
that they are tied too is IMO the best way to go. There are so many now days
that it is also easy to be choosy and try to find the better balanced ones.
That might be a good project

****starts looking for books with PrCs in them*****

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[Lee]

I`ve already got a long and growing list of PrC`s from Dragon and the few
3e "brown books" I have, annotated as to if and how I would use them in my
game. The vast majority are rejected, mostly because I don`t see them as
BR-ish (ninja wannabes are automatic rejects, but that may be just me 8-P).
There is another pile labelled "OK if they have an organization behind them,"
which I haven`t bothered to flesh out yet.
When I first heard of the concept, I thought they would all be tied to
campaign-specific groups, like 2nd ed FR specialty priests, but I have been
disappointed. I wish they were, and I will strive IMC to make it so. Where
else do all of these cool abilities come from?

As a thought for the BRCS, Doom`s current conversion has wizard as a
standard class, and magician as a PrC for higher-level non-blooded arcane
casters. If I could suggest a radical change, how about magician as the
standard, and wizard as the PrC, open only to sidhe and blooded humans?

Lee.

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[Grimwell]

Prestige Classes are one of the most abused options in 3E. This dicussion shows that there is not a clear consensus amongst the readers of the DMG as to exactly what they are and how one should design one. How do we balance this?

We go to the person who laid those rules out (as suggested) and read his clarifications. Monte Cook did a two part breakdown on PrC's last year and gave solid examples of how one should go about wrestling this bear. As PrC's are his baby (he put them in the DMG) he's a very solid rock to anchor this debate to...

(if you don't follow and read these links, please don't spend the energy responding to me specifically.)

Part One

Part Two

Monte has a lot to say on the subject, and he clarifies some issues debated within this thread.

What is the design intention for PrC's?

The original design intention behind them was to allow DMs to create campaign-specific, exclusive roles and positions as classes. These special roles offer abilities and powers otherwise inaccessible to PCs and focus characters in specific, interesting directions.

The key there -- the one that's now often missing -- is that these are supposed to be DM-created tools, to lend specificity and actual mechanics to the details of your world.

More good quotes as to why one should develop a PrC:

There are four basic reasons why you should create prestige classes for your campaign.

1. To Develop an Organization.

2. To Develop a Race or Culture.

3. To Satisfy Players.

4. To Make Otherwise Poor Options Acceptable.

Finally, I'll quote another guideline from Monte:

Choose the Specific Over the General
No-----------------Yes
Holy Warrior------Champion of Pelor
City Guardsman--Greyhawk Watchman
Martial Disciple---Order of the Fist Disciple
Woodsman-------Darkwater Pass Tracker

While you really should read what Monte has to say in his extended writing on the subject (it's not really that long and gives great insight) this information (from the horses mouth) goes against making PrC's that are more general and easy to insert into other games. If you are designing a PrC for BR, design a PrC for BR and let the Realms and Kalamar be damned! :)

Should there be a PrC for each type of regent? I think that's too general and vanilla even within the context of Birthright. That does not mean that there should not be PrC's that lend themselves nicely to regents, not in the least, but there should be more flavor to tie them tightly to BR.

Don't make a generic PrC for "Guilders" who hold the Guild holdings. The vastness of the cultures within BR make this too generic to accurately represent each culture. Instead you can design one for "Merchant Prince" with a requirement of Brecht to qualify for the Prc; back it up with "Khinasi Smuggler" for the likes of El-hadid and you can put the spin of the SE ends of Cerilia into a PrC for the Khinasi.

Then go further and escape the notion of the regents and grab the flavor that is the heart of BR and make PrC's to make it shine. "Pureblood" a PrC for Masatean people who descend from the last of their people (thus mostly found in the Serpent's domain).

"Imperial Dragoon" - Anuirean heavy calvary. Once at the forefront of Anuirean armies, ever fighting to extend the reach of the Emperor, now a scattered group who can be elevated by any landed regent in Anuire (though only the most powerful dare to openly grant this titile least they draw the ire of their neighbors). Requirement: An Anuirean nobleman must grant this title and the privledges that come with it (defend the Empire, or rebuild it in the modern day).

Having focused PrC's that are custom made for BR is a very good thing. It's something that I assume is being done behind the doors of this secret project. If it's not, I'll issue some after the project is made public (I'd rather match the official conversion than try to guess at it).

When you look at the glut of PrC's on the market, try to remember what it was like when BR first came out for 2E. There were scores of kits to be found and all kinds of spells and races and options. 2E was beginning to become too unwieldly because of all the options out there.

What did the BR design team do? They looked at those options, picked the ones that fit the setting, and cast the rest to the side with the caveat that individual DM's can do whatever they want. No Psionics in BR. Most kits were invalid. As were a great deal of spells (when you eliminate all the secondary products). They took the setting, matched it to the 2E core, added in a few of the existing options and then made some of their own specific to the setting.

When they were done they had a work of beauty. Birthright was a very complete campaign that had a pulse and a mood. It has always been easy for me to see something and decide that it did or did not fit in with BR, because the campaign is not about every option, it's about culture and regionalism, and theme, and story, and so much more. Which is why it was an instant draw to this old and wordy gamer.

[Mark_Aurel]

Very good post, Grimwell, and my point exactly - prestige classes are meant to be specific, not generic. Birthright has a lot of different things going for it in terms of prestige classes, though perhaps not as much as, say, the Forgotten Realms. Some aspects of BR are practically screaming for it - in other cases, you'll need to retrofit it a bit.

Overall, I think you'd be pleased to see how the prestige classes are being handled in the BRCS.

[Eosin the Red]

Nicely done. I agree with nearly every word (not to be a me too). I would
only add that I prefer adapting published PrCs ~ my experience tells me that
75% of the time, publishers overdo it. When we get into the fan stuff (my
mail box is half-full of broken Prcs submitted to my website) the numbers
slide from bad to abysmal. I have had to revise nearly everyone I have
created to balance them, and even Monte has some stinkers out there.
Freewheeling PrCs is just plain hard.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Grimwell" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: Presitige Classes for Regents [2#1017]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1017
>
> Grimwell wrote:
> Prestige Classes are one of the most abused options in 3E. This dicussion
shows that there is not a clear consensus amongst the readers of the DMG as
to exactly what they are and how one should design one. How do we balance
this?
>
> We go to the person who laid those rules out (as suggested) and read his
clarifications. Monte Cook did a two part breakdown on PrC`s last year and
gave solid examples of how one should go about wrestling this bear. As PrC`s
are his baby (he put them in the DMG) he`s a very solid rock to anchor this
debate to...
>
> (if you don`t follow and read these links, please don`t spend the energy
responding to me specifically.)
>
> Part One
>
> Part Two
>
> Monte has a lot to say on the subject, and he clarifies some issues
debated within this thread.
>
> What is the design intention for PrC`s?
>

> The original design intention behind them was to allow DMs to create
campaign-specific, exclusive roles and positions as classes. These special
roles offer abilities and powers otherwise inaccessible to PCs and focus
characters in specific, interesting directions.
>
> The key there -- the one that`s now often missing -- is that these are
supposed to be DM-created tools, to lend specificity and actual mechanics to
the details of your world.
>

> More good quotes as to why one should develop a PrC:
>

> There are four basic reasons why you should create prestige classes for
your campaign.
>
> 1. To Develop an Organization.
>
> 2. To Develop a Race or Culture.
>
> 3. To Satisfy Players.
>
> 4. To Make Otherwise Poor Options Acceptable.
>

> Finally, I`ll quote another guideline from Monte:
>

> Choose the Specific Over the General
> No Yes
> Holy Warrior Champion of Pelor
> City Guardsman Greyhawk Watchman
> Martial Disciple Order of the Fist Disciple
> Woodsman Darkwater Pass Tracker
>

> While you really should read what Monte has to say in his extended writing
on the subject (it`s not really that long and gives great insight) this
information (from the horses mouth) goes against making PrC`s that are more
general and easy to insert into other games. If you are designing a PrC for
BR, design a PrC for BR and let the Realms and Kalamar be damned! :)
>
> Should there be a PrC for each type of regent? I think that`s too general
and vanilla even within the context of Birthright. That does not mean that
there should not be PrC`s that lend themselves nicely to regents, not in the
least, but there should be more flavor to tie them tightly to BR.
>
> Don`t make a generic PrC for "Guilders" who hold the Guild holdings. The
vastness of the cultures within BR make this too generic to accurately
represent each culture. Instead you can design one for "Merchant Prince"
with a requirement of Brecht to qualify for the Prc; back it up with
"Khinasi Smuggler" for the likes of El-hadid and you can put the spin of the
SE ends of Cerilia into a PrC for the Khinasi.
>
> Then go further and escape the notion of the regents and grab the flavor
that is the heart of BR and make PrC`s to make it shine. "Pureblood" a PrC
for Masatean people who descend from the last of their people (thus mostly
found in the Serpent`s domain).
>
> "Imperial Dragoon" - Anuirean heavy calvary. Once at the forefront of
Anuirean armies, ever fighting to extend the reach of the Emperor, now a
scattered group who can be elevated by any landed regent in Anuire (though
only the most powerful dare to openly grant this titile least they draw the
ire of their neighbors). Requirement: An Anuirean nobleman must grant this
title and the privledges that come with it (defend the Empire, or rebuild it
in the modern day).
>
> Having focused PrC`s that are custom made for BR is a very good thing.
It`s something that I assume is being done behind the doors of this secret
project. If it`s not, I`ll issue some after the project is made public (I`d
rather match the official conversion than try to guess at it).
>
> When you look at the glut of PrC`s on the market, try to remember what it
was like when BR first came out for 2E. There were scores of kits to be
found and all kinds of spells and races and options. 2E was beginning to
become too unwieldly because of all the options out there.
>
> What did the BR design team do? They looked at those options, picked the
ones that fit the setting, and cast the rest to the side with the caveat
that individual DM`s can do whatever they want. No Psionics in BR. Most kits
were invalid. As were a great deal of spells (when you eliminate all the
secondary products). They took the setting, matched it to the 2E core, added
in a few of the existing options and then made some of their own specific to
the setting.
>
> When they were done they had a work of beauty. Birthright was a very
complete campaign that had a pulse and a mood. It has always been easy for
me to see something and decide that it did or did not fit in with BR,
because the campaign is not about every option, it`s about culture and
regionalism, and theme, and story, and so much more. Which is why it was an
instant draw to this old and wordy gamer.
>
>
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[kgauck]

Most kinds of characters can be achived by careful selection of feats,
skills, and multiclassing. For generic concepts, just adding a few classes
(guilder, knight, archer, &c) will handle the kind of basic stats you might
find everywhere. PrC`s involve specialized training, IMO. Training not
found at the local hall. Training only available from the organization.
Only in the Heraldric Colleges of Cuiraécen do characters learn how to
ignore magical silence. While they could just teach anyone who wandered by,
they don`t do that. They teach the secrets of heraldric excellence to their
best, most committed heralds.

Part of the connection, which I think essential, between PrC`s and
organizations is the fact that organizations have secret knowledge,
techniques, and training which they reveal only to those who they believe
will advance the interests of the organization.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Elton Robb]

Well, having designed one PrC based on the _Battle Magic_ supplement by Mongoose Publishing, I can safely say something about the book's PrCs and their suitability.

Don't let the PCs use them. They are much too restrictive to be used as a PC PrC. Here's the reason. Although it's super cool to blast your enemies away with successive spells, and new spells which produces streams and spiraled effects, what makes the PrCs bad is this.

Ex-Battle Mages and Ex-Eldritch Warriors: After taking a level of either of these two classes, the character has changed the way he views magic forever. The character may never gain another level in any arcane spellcasting class.

Thus, as you can see, it restricts the PC's options in progress.

Elton Robb