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  1. #1
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    Does anyone have any ideas for a presitge class for a Regent?

    It seems like there could be some sort of ruling prestige class but me and my player who wants to look into it are having a hard time getting started on designing one so I was hoping someone had started one.

    Also, anyone have any good prestige class ideas for BR Halflings?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:38 PM 10/7/2002 +0200, Crumbiness wrote:

    >Does anyone have any ideas for a presitge class for a Regent?
    >
    >It seems like there could be some sort of ruling prestige class but me and
    >my player who wants to look into it are having a hard time getting started
    >on designing one so I was hoping someone had started one.

    I haven`t actually come up with prestige classes, but I`ve been giving the
    idea some thought recently, and here`s the direction I`m going. I think
    there should be one for each type of holding. "Lord Sheriff" for law
    holdings, "Master Guilder" for guilds, "Source Adept" for sources. Temples
    might be a little different since it`s easy to imagine prestige classes for
    each particular faith, but if you wanted to go with a more general group of
    BR prestige classes "Grand Patriarch/Matriarch" might be a good name/base
    concept. There`s no practical limit to the number and type of prestige
    classes, of course, so there`s no reason why you couldn`t have both
    holding-based prestige classes in addition to prestige classes for
    particular faiths, but I think you`d find so many prestige classes muddies
    up the campaign rather than helps define the differences between
    characters. YMMV.

    Possible powers for holding-based prestige classes might be:

    1. The ability to collect more RP than their bloodline would normally
    allow. A Master Guilder with a BSS of 20, for example, might be able to
    collect 1 additional RP per level s/he had in the prestige class. This is
    somewhat of a departure from both the prestige class concept and the "core"
    BR rules, but not such a departure that I think it will really screw things
    up terribly. There are a few cases where RP generation increases through
    means other than bloodline strength score, so a few points based on levels
    in a prestige class won`t mean the end of the world or anything.

    2. Additional GB from holdings. I haven`t exactly figured out how I want
    to do this one, but I`ve been thinking of a few changes lately to the
    income tables in BR and this particular class ability would fit into those
    changes. The income changes that I`m talking about are a pretty
    significant change from the standard BR system, however, so going into them
    is probably too much to cover here. You could just tack on a few GB/level
    or use a slightly larger die than those in the Rulebook to replicate this
    power.

    3. Reputation score. IMO, BR desperately needs a reputation score. More
    so than just about any other campaign setting. Prestige classes like those
    described above should have good modifiers to the reputation score.

    4. You could assign HD, BAB, saving throws, spells, etc. based on the
    character classes that get their RP from the particular holdings.

    I would avoid adventure level "powers" like those of many other prestige
    classes. Instead, the prestige classes should bridge the adventure level
    of play with the domain level and the "powers" gained should be those that
    are typical of that bridge already; greater access to wealth, more
    influence among the population, etc. but with even more emphasis through
    the prestige class powers.

    >Also, anyone have any good prestige class ideas for BR Halflings?

    Again, I haven`t got the prestige class written up because it hasn`t been
    an issue IMC, but there should be a few BR prestige classes having to do
    with characters who make forays into the SW. "Shadow Scout" or something
    like that.

    Gary

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  3. #3
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't like the idea. Being a regent is like already having an extra prestige class, I don't think there is any need to confuse the issue.

    Of course, I just dislike prestige classes all round at the moment. I understand the idea, but it seems to me there is a glut of them starting to appear. If you look at any BR resource site on the net they always seem to have one or two submissions in the magic items, spells, etc sections and then ten or more prestige classes.
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

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    I think perhaps an essential point here is being missed, and that is the purpose of prestige classes - they are meant to fill a role of some kind in the campaign world, as well as provide some form of mechanical differentiation from the regular classes, offering abilities that are otherwise not available, often within the context of some organization or group.

    The essential problem with adding prestige classes for regents would be the lack of an organization or group within which the regent would function; this means, for instance, that having a "Lord Sheriff" or "Master Guilder" class is not really such a good idea - there is simply no in-game reason for such a class to exist. What is being discussed, then, is instead a purely mechanical concept in order to boost certain character aspects.

    Mechanically, the following options would fit better with the 3e rules:

    1) You make feats that affect specific areas of domain rulership; these feats should be fairly broad and powerful in order to be attractive. Feats can easily fulfill mechanical ideas of superior regents.

    2) You make the regent the top of the hierarchy in an existing prestige class, and add some possible domain-level benefit there. I.e. you make a separate "Knight of the Holy Order of Haelyn's Aegis" class, and give the regent of that domain specific abilities if he takes that class, which are, of course, lost if he loses the domain, or "falls from grace." This is far from a viable option for most domains, but for some with a clear organizational profile or specific organizations, it may be.

    3) You make a specific prestige class for the regent of a single domain only. This should certainly be rare, but not unheard of. The Count of Danigau, for instance, sounds like a candidate for such a position of hereditary training.

    Finally, remember the Golden Rule of 3e - don't invent a new rule unless you have to. Of course, WotC themselves are stretching that idea, and so are everyone else - "our books must have crunch!" A Guilder, as they were in 2e, for instance, is really a perfect example of the Expert NPC class in 3e - there was really nothing especially "prestigious" about them, simply an appellation for Brecht merchants.

    I happen to think there are too few prestige classes; or, rather, too few GOOD prestige classes. Most of the published ones are either unoriginal, unbalanced, or just plain boring. If there's a glut of anything, it's bad or mediocre material. Much of what you will find on the internet also falls in this trap, unfortunately.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:57 AM 10/8/2002 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:

    >The essential problem with adding prestige classes for regents would be
    >the lack of an organization or group within which the regent would
    >function; this means, for instance, that having a "Lord Sheriff" or
    >"Master Guilder" class is not really such a good idea - there is simply no
    >in-game reason for such a class to exist. What is being discussed, then,
    >is instead a purely mechanical concept in order to boost certain character
    >aspects.

    There isn`t really a requirement in the prestige class concept that they be
    based on some organization or group. Granted, many of the ones presented
    in the core materials and supplements are described as being based on
    campaign specific organizations, but I`d suggest that that is part of the
    problem with the way prestige classes are being written up. It`s the
    reason why they are so prolific, and why the vast majority of them aren`t
    usable for most folks without at least some revision. Any organization
    with 6+ members seems to get its own prestige class, and those prestige
    classes often are tweaked towards a (sometimes goofy) role in a campaign
    world. When such prestige classes are presented as part of a campaign
    setting that`s all well and good, but because so many prestige classes have
    been presented in the core rules they often get used in campaigns for which
    they aren`t suited, despite the guidelines in the DMG that suggest that`s
    exactly what they aren`t supposed to be used for.

    IMO there should be two kinds of prestige classes. "General" prestige
    classes that represent more powerful versions of existing character
    classes. The ones that would qualify for this category would be ones like
    the Assassin, the Dwarven Defender--and a version of the Blackguard that
    wasn`t so closely premised on the fallen paladin concept since paladins
    really ought to be included in that list. Other prestige classes that
    should exist in such a list are things like an Elementalist. Then there
    should be "campaign specific" prestige classes, but even those prestige
    classes should be general enough that they could be used in other campaign
    settings without too much trouble. Things like the holding-regent based
    prestige classes would be campaign specific to BR. If one used a system of
    BR-like domain rules in a non-BR campaign, however, the concept could be
    easily `ported.

    Four prestige classes based on holding regents looks like a problem in the
    scope of the endless number of prestige classes presented for 3e, but in
    this case I think they would be useful to the campaign setting and rules,
    so I generally support the idea.

    >1) You make feats that affect specific areas of domain rulership; these
    >feats should be fairly broad and powerful in order to be attractive. Feats
    >can easily fulfill mechanical ideas of superior regents.

    Generally, I agree that many of the prestige class special abilities would
    be better described as feats, but when it comes to events at the domain
    level I wouldn`t use feats, personally. Feats should have adventure level
    effects, or at least personal effects. Those feats that have extended into
    groups (like the Leadership feat) are almost always disastrous failures IMO.

    Also, opinions vary quite a bit on the role that character class should
    play in RP collection in BR. Some folks limit RP collection to a "primary"
    class, others allow unrestricted RP collection without restriction to
    multi-classed characters, still more do away entirely with the character
    class restrictions on RP collection, or some variants in between those
    standards. Unless you prefer some variation on the last option (no
    restriction to RP collection by character class) using feats to influence
    domain rulership will cross over into the role of character class at the
    domain level since feats are available to anyone who meets the
    requirements, regardless of their class.

    >2) You make the regent the top of the hierarchy in an existing prestige
    >class, and add some possible domain-level benefit there. I.e. you make a
    >separate "Knight of the Holy Order of Haelyn`s Aegis" class, and give the
    >regent of that domain specific abilities if he takes that class, which
    >are, of course, lost if he loses the domain, or "falls from grace." This
    >is far from a viable option for most domains, but for some with a clear
    >organizational profile or specific organizations, it may be.

    If your objection is to the number of prestige classes available then I
    think this would be the exactly opposite way to go. Not only would you
    have to write up fifty or eighty prestige classes, but those prestige
    classes would then be available to a very small number of
    individuals. Rulers, former rulers, lieutenants and maybe a few key
    individuals.

    I`m also not a real big fan of the "off the path" mechanic used for
    paladins and monks, so extended that to a potentially endless list of
    prestige classes isn`t the way I`d go.

    >3) You make a specific prestige class for the regent of a single domain
    >only. This should certainly be rare, but not unheard of. The Count of
    >Danigau, for instance, sounds like a candidate for such a position of
    >hereditary training.

    Hereditary training isn`t normally what prestige classes are meant to
    represent, since such training would be the kind of thing that occurs
    before a character reaches the 6th-8th level range of most prestige
    classes. Hereditary training would be something that would begin before a
    character even reached 1st level, wouldn`t it? A system of background
    feats, or beginning characters at higher than 1st level might be a better
    way to reflect that kind of training.

    >A Guilder, as they were in 2e, for instance, is really a perfect example
    >of the Expert NPC class in 3e - there was really nothing especially
    >"prestigious" about them, simply an appellation for Brecht merchants.

    Guilder should, I think, be a core BR class available at 1st level with a
    more mercantile emphasis than other classes. There could still be,
    however, a prestige class "Master Guilder" that represented a person
    focusing on the leadership aspects of running a domain of guild holdings.

    >I happen to think there are too few prestige classes; or, rather, too few
    >GOOD prestige classes. Most of the published ones are either unoriginal,
    >unbalanced, or just plain boring. If there`s a glut of anything, it`s bad
    >or mediocre material. Much of what you will find on the internet also
    >falls in this trap, unfortunately.

    I`d certainly agree with that. The campaign specific nature of many of the
    prestige classes makes them unusable in most campaigns without some
    rewriting, and quite a few of them would seem to require a campaign setting
    devised in order to support them, when the concept of prestige classes is
    supposedly meant to support campaign settings. Sometimes prestige classes
    don`t need a whole lot of tweaking to fit into other campaigns, but more
    often than not they can`t be just plopped down into another campaign world
    as is.

    Also, there doesn`t seem to be any real effort at balancing prestige
    classes. They have a few rough guidelines having to do with requirements,
    but many prestige classes are more powerful than others despite those
    guidelines. In fact, the prestige classes seem to be getting more powerful
    in later supplements, leading me to suspect there will one day be a
    super-powerful, all-encompassing ultra-prestige class presented one day....

    I`m curious what folks in the BR community feel are appropriate 3e prestige
    classes to BR? Which would you guys use? What kinds of prestige classes
    should there be?

    Gary

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  6. #6
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    On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Gary wrote:
    > Also, there doesn`t seem to be any real effort at balancing prestige
    > classes. They have a few rough guidelines having to do with requirements,
    > but many prestige classes are more powerful than others despite those
    > guidelines. In fact, the prestige classes seem to be getting more powerful
    > in later supplements, leading me to suspect there will one day be a
    > super-powerful, all-encompassing ultra-prestige class presented one day....

    Which is why they should just be done away with completely. They`re
    escalating, and one day soon, they`ll attain sentience and take over the
    internet, and then the world.

    > I`m curious what folks in the BR community feel are appropriate 3e prestige
    > classes to BR? Which would you guys use? What kinds of prestige classes
    > should there be?

    None. Prestige classes are broken as they are commonly used now. The
    only one I would even think of allowing would be Paladin (hehehe).
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  7. #7
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    There absolutly has to be a glut of PrC`s. If they represent special
    organizations specific to a campaign, there need to be half dozen for every
    style of campiagn. Its a buffet of PrC`s and we are intended only to use a
    tiny fraction. We pick and choose here and there, and leave the rest for
    someone else. I have been able to produce nearly all the kinds of
    characters I have wanted by judicious multi-classing. I have only used
    something like three PrC`s thus far.

    Heidrek Bern is a 2nd level Aristocrat/6th level Fighter/3rd level
    Warmaster. (Bern is lord of Uleåborg, High Marshal of the Armies of
    Stjordvik.)
    Axel Ovtrup is a 5th level Rogue/1st level Assassin (Axel is the lord of
    Halmstad in the province of Hollenvik.)
    Euric Aelis is a 5th level Cleric/3rd level Master of the Forest (Euric is
    the Archdruid of Cariele.)

    I`m glad the whole collection is there, but AFAIC, its for the whole
    community, and I`m only gonna want a fraction of what D&D can be for my
    games.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  8. #8
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    There isn`t really a requirement in the prestige class concept that they be
    based on some organization or group. Granted, many of the ones presented
    in the core materials and supplements are described as being based on
    campaign specific organizations, but I`d suggest that that is part of the
    problem with the way prestige classes are being written up. It`s the
    reason why they are so prolific, and why the vast majority of them aren`t
    usable for most folks without at least some revision.
    No, the reason they are so prolific is because they make for nice filler material. Of course, as the concept of prestige classes is built with the idea that they should be campaign specific, rather than generic, in mind, you'll need to do some work to adapt most of them. Noq, there isn't strictly an organizational requirement tied to prestige classes, but they should be anchored in the game world; the four examples given are fairly encompassing: Racial distinction, cultural distinction, religious order and guild or group membership. I suppose you could also include a category of event-based ones; i.e. the acolyte of the skin, the blood magus, or the eldritch master are tied to events that give them their powers.

    In all these cases, however, it is still clear that prestige classes are world-specific. Now, organizations is generally one of the easiest things to tie prestige classes to - knightly or religious orders, wizard's colleges or groups, etc. Birthright has probably more organizations than any other campaign world TSR ever made; however, the organizations in Birthright are mainly political in nature, and most aren't even fleshed out to any significant degree; certainly not enough to base prestige classes upon them. Only a very small number of the organizations or domains that abound in BR should have prestige classes tied to them. In a lot of cases, existing classes can be adapted with relative ease. Shadowdancers would fit well with certain of Eloéle's temples. Assassins would fit well into the Society of the Serpent. Dwarven defenders are probably found in the greatest numbers ín Baruk-Azhik.

    IMO there should be two kinds of prestige classes. "General" prestige
    classes that represent more powerful versions of existing character
    classes.
    Taken on its own, this is a profoundly untrue statement; prestige classes don't exist to be strictly better versions of existing classes. However, in the context of the examples you used, I think the point is more that prestige classes specialize more in certain areas than regular classes do. Assassins are better at killing people than rogues, but lack the many skill points, or the high-level abilities of the latter. Dwarven defenders are superior melee fighters, but they don't make as good archers or mobility type combatants as fighters. They are not, however, strictly better - simply more specialized.

    Hereditary training isn`t normally what prestige classes are meant to
    represent, since such training would be the kind of thing that occurs
    before a character reaches the 6th-8th level range of most prestige
    classes. Hereditary training would be something that would begin before a
    character even reached 1st level, wouldn`t it? A system of background
    feats, or beginning characters at higher than 1st level might be a better
    way to reflect that kind of training.
    Not necessarily. Remember, I threw this idea forth as a better way to address the "regent prestige class" issue than simply assuming there are "merchant princes," "super sheriffs" and the like. The point in this case would likely be that the character must work hard to aspire to be that which his ancestors has been before him, thus fulfilling the requirement of it being a prestige class, and also making sense in terms of it having regency-related capabilities. Not a "club," or group, but a hereditary position. The idea has merit, I believe, but not necessarily on a universal level or scale - there might be a few domains in Cerilia for which the idea would work, though. Note also that this suggestion was labeled as #3 for a reason - it is the most far-fetched, but still better than "hey, I took a few feats and skills, and now I'm going to be a cleric/über-bureaucrat!"

    Simply having a function and a set of cool class abilities isn't enough to make a prestige class - it has to have a real fundament or anchor in the game world. There are always exceptions, of course - but simply creating a category of "superior regent" prestige classes does not strike me as a good or compelling exception. Feats is probably the better solution, all things considered.
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:43 AM 10/8/2002 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:

    >
    There isn`t really a requirement in the prestige class concept
    > that they be
    >based on some organization or group. Granted, many of the ones presented
    >in the core materials and supplements are described as being based on
    >campaign specific organizations, but I`d suggest that that is part of the
    >problem with the way prestige classes are being written up. It`s the
    >reason why they are so prolific, and why the vast majority of them aren`t
    >usable for most folks without at least some revision.
    >
    >No, the reason they are so prolific is because they make for nice filler
    >material.

    Sure, they are used as filler material, but that`s not what I`m getting
    at. What I`m saying is that the prestige class concept is assumed to be
    based on particular organizations in particular campaign settings. Because
    there`s no limit to the number of such organizations and campaigns possible
    that assumption means there is no reason why there shouldn`t be a similarly
    endless number of prestige classes to express them. Without that
    assumption they`d have to find something else to fill pages with. If we do
    away with that assumption and design prestige classes for BR without tying
    them to particular organizations we can come up with much more general and
    flexible ones that would be available in (most) campaign worlds, and where
    warranted they can be adapted to the BR. In the long run that`ll make for
    a more useful system of prestige classes since the variations will mostly
    wind up being described amongst the "general" versions and one need only
    make a few changes here and there to make them more campaign specific.

    >
    IMO there should be two kinds of prestige classes. "General" prestige
    >classes that represent more powerful versions of existing character
    >classes.
    >
    >Taken on its own, this is a profoundly untrue statement; prestige classes
    >don`t exist to be strictly better versions of existing classes. [Snip
    >Examples] They are not, however, strictly better - simply more specialized.

    Profoundly untrue? That`s a bit of an overstatement.... Aside from it
    being an opinion, it would be a pretty sensible way to write core
    materials. Prestige classes that are as general as possible and applicable
    to as many campaigns as possible would be a lot more useful than the rather
    scattergun approach to prestige classes that most of the core materials has
    employed. Articulating two categories of prestige classes would help
    considerably, and deal with most of the objections you`ve raised to the
    concept.

    Also, I never said that they were meant to be better versions of existing
    classes, but since you brought it up that actually is what they are meant
    to be; better and more directed versions of existing classes. It says so
    pretty definitively in the DMG "A character with a prestige class is more
    specialized yet perhaps slightly better than one without one." That
    doesn`t necessarily mean they are simply more powerful versions of existing
    classes as in a particular prestige class is Fighter + X powers, but they
    do represent a powering up from the existing classes.

    One could certainly take issue with whether or not they should work that
    way, but it`s one of the specifically professed goals of the prestige class
    concept.

    >Simply having a function and a set of cool class abilities isn`t enough to
    >make a prestige class - it has to have a real fundament or anchor in the
    >game world.

    That`s another drastic overstatement. Prestige classes are just meant to
    be a fun (and relatively simple) way of determining class abilities in
    association with campaign flavor issues. They needn`t (and many aren`t) so
    directly linked to a particular campaign setting that they couldn`t be used
    as a general concept that would apply to most campaigns. The DMG says that
    prestige classes "set characters in the milieu and put them in the context
    of the world." That`s a far cry from saying prestige classes must all be
    anchored in the game world. There are several prestige classes that could
    accomplish that goal in a broad range of campaign settings. If you remove
    the (largely unnecessary) organization material from them, other prestige
    classes can be similarly generalized.

    >There are always exceptions, of course - but simply creating a category of
    >"superior regent" prestige classes does not strike me as a good or
    >compelling exception. Feats is probably the better solution, all things
    >considered.

    How are you picturing using feats in place of prestige classes? Maybe if
    you gave me some examples I`d be better able to see what you mean. Given
    the way feats work at present, however, I don`t think using a set of
    "domain level feats" would be a good way to go, but I don`t know what kind
    of direction you`re thinking of here, so maybe some examples would
    help. How specifically are you seeing feats take the place of prestige
    classes in the particular situation?

    Gary

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  10. #10
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:44 PM 10/7/2002 -0700, I wrote:

    >Also, I never said that they were meant to be better versions of existing
    >classes

    No, wait. I did say that. Oh, well, it`s still true.

    Gary

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