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Thread: Orogs

  1. #11
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
    Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 2:31 AM

    > I think that all the humanoid monster races should be included as
    > potential playing material for BR - gnolls, orogs, and goblins of every
    > shape and size.

    That seems to be what`s behind Races of Faerun. I`d like to see complete
    work-ups of these. For example, right now, I`m allowing Weapon
    Specialization to be a feat that any Orog can take with a BAB of +4 or
    better. I do this in part to reflect that the card tells us that 6 HD
    chiefs do +4 damage rather than the standard +2 damage (which is now a
    reflection of their 15 Str). Rather than giving them super strength, the
    martial character of their culture with its state of "perpetual war" make
    this access sensible to me. I am sure a thorough-going approach will yield
    all kinds of decisions about what is appropraite and inappropriate for
    orogs.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  2. #12
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    Orginally posted by Trithemius

    Gary:
    > Speaking of orogs... shouldn`t they be included as a list of
    > possible character races in a 3e version of BR? Goblins were
    > also excluded from the list in the Rulebook.

    Hear hear!

    I think that all the humanoid monster races should be included as
    potential playing material for BR - gnolls, orogs, and goblins of every
    shape and size.

    These creatures are at least as playable as Sidhe or Vos characters :)

    Actually I woudn't worry much with this because if you follow the rules in the DMG you can use any monster as a pc race. Sure, the designers normally do a better work on a race originally made for pcs, like what Kenneth is doing.

    Orginally posted by Daniel
    What? No. Orogs have been a staple of D&D monster lists since long
    before BR, and I think it`s a travesty that they weren`t included in the
    3e Monster Manual.

    They were given a prominent place in BR to differentiate the setting from
    others, like FR and Grayhawk, in which the orc is the primary evil
    humanoid race.

    Personally, I prefer a more Tolkienesque genetics, so all the humanoids
    (goblin, hobgoblin, orc, bugbear, orog, ogre) are pretty much one species.
    Hmm, it's just that the first time I saw orogs was on Birthright...
    I agree that goblins and hob and bug should be the same race, the same way there are dogs of different size. But, at least IMC the orogs are a different race. IMC orogs live in the underground and are the ancestral enemies of the dwarves, and goblins live more on (dark) forets and are enemies of elfs. About other classical humanoid, the ogre, I'm not decided if he should be a kind of degenerate giant or a big cousin of orogs (as they live on mountains and are too enemies of the dwarfs) or even of the goblins.

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    Allowing orogs to take weapon specialization at +4 BAB instead of 4 fighter levels will make orog barbarians far stronger, to the detriment of their fighters - not quite sure if that's a desirable goal; weapon specialization generally represent a roughly 20-30% boost in damage output, and has always been one of the main selling points of fighters, or taking fighter levels.

    Note for Sir Justine - if you have 2e MM, check page 282, under the Orc entry - orogs are noted as a subspecies there; they were also in the original Monstrous Compendium, as well as likely some 1e products (my memory doesn't go that far back).
    Jan E. Juvstad.

  4. #14
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck

    So kobalds (German for goblin) are not goblins in Brectur, but a seperate monster type.
    Err... no! Kobold isn't goblin in German (O.K., you will find it in a dictionary, but they don't know, what goblins are) and also not the AD&D version of Kobold. With the original "German" Kobold is meant the Leprechaun (this Irish guy with the gold pot).

    Originally posted by Trithemius

    These creatures are at least as playable as Sidhe or Vos characters
    A sidhe is always playable (I play nearly every time someone with at least a bit sidhelien blood in his veins) but with those vos you're right. Perhaps I would prefer to play an orog or bugbear instead of a vos!

    By the way, in the Kalamar Campaign it is possible to play goblins or hobgoblins as a PC race (without ECL), why not playing them here...

    Originally posted by Mark_Aurel

    weapon specialization generally represent a roughly 20-30% boost in damage output, and has always been one of the main selling points of fighters, or taking fighter levels.
    If you're high-level enough, the specialization will only be a 5-10% boost for damage (magical weapons, girdle of giant strength etc.), but allowing it to an orog in such a low level will make him over dimensionally strong, that's right. And most characters ONLY take levels as a fighter to get this specialization, for nothing else (O.K., if they are regents, then perhaps for the law holding excess too).
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Looking at the folklore of early Europeans, the goblin
    is also a little household trickster who might frighten
    children but was mostly an annoyance to adults.
    Brownies, faries, goblins, bogeymen, leprechauns,
    gremlins, and the rest are only regional varriations on
    a theme: "the mischievious little people who are bent on
    making me search for my keys every day." As travel
    expanded and people`s folklore traditions began to
    encounter one another, the different names became
    associated with special characteristics. At root,
    they`re all just a generalized semi-magical little
    people who cause mischief.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com
    > Ariadne wrote:
    > Err... no! Kobold isn`t goblin in German (O.K., you will find it in a
    > dictionary, but they don`t know, what goblins are) and also not the AD&D version
    > of Kobold. With the original "German" Kobold is meant the Leprechaun (this Irish
    > guy with the gold pot).

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:15 AM


    > Allowing orogs to take weapon specialization at +4 BAB
    > instead of 4 fighter levels will make orog barbarians far
    > stronger, to the detriment of their fighters - not quite sure
    > if that`s a desirable goal; weapon specialization generally
    > represent a roughly 20-30% boost in damage output, and
    > has always been one of the main selling points of fighters,
    > or taking fighter levels.

    I`m not sure its a desirable goal either, but given the choice between a way
    to represent orog NPC`s and the orog PC write-up comming in the future
    (either the FR or the BR), I have found it works. Part of this is because I
    have made nearly all orogs warriors with the remainder being adepts. My
    long term goal isn`t to find a permenent solution in this way, its to
    abandon my temp fix in favor of an official 3e orog between now and next
    spring. I`m trying to match the familiar orog of BR rules, rather than do a
    complete conversion. Weapon Specialization gives high HD orogs the +2 to
    damage the orog card leads me to expect with the fewest wacky side effects.
    As DM, even if I chose to make barbarian orogs (which I`m not inclined to
    do) I could always choose not to give any NPC any specific feat. PC orogs
    will have to wait until I see an orog PC write-up I feel good about.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #17
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    The names:

    Germany has a totally different myth-history than for example Ireland or Spain. You can not compare them by throwing all together in the term "Europe myth".

    In fact there is no figure like a goblin in german myth - so Goblin translated would be just Goblin. What a Kobold means, Ariadne pointed out.

    Brownies, leprechauns are unknown, but could be compared to german KObolds or "Heinzelmänchen".

    Faries are often mixed up with Elfs.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  8. #18
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by kgauck

    Looking at the folklore of early Europeans, the goblin is also a little household trickster who might frighten children but was mostly an annoyance to adults.
    Oh yes, J.K. Rowling has reawakened it with a little bit difference as a "house-elf" (see "Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban"). Actually this is mostly the Irish folklore, where this believe is alive until today.

    Otherwise Brownies, goblins, bogeymen are mostly unknown and the "elf" is confused with a pixie (thanks goodness they made a film of Tolkien's "Lord of the rings", so most know a true elf today). Oh, and if you ask a German after a gremlin, you will get the answer: "Oh, these little hairy monsters with the large ears of the film..."
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    > Azrai wrote:
    >
    > Germany has a totally different myth-history than for
    > example Ireland or Spain. You can not compare them by
    > throwing all together in the term "Europe myth".

    Germans and Celts have a common origin and their stories
    can, and have been examined for their common themes and
    elements. One of these is the role of these little
    mischevious people. We could go further, a la Campbell,
    and just group all human myths together as well. It is
    one thing to observe that each different groups have
    different elements in their folklore, but that is not
    then same thing as saying that they are totally
    different. Syncreticism in folklore and comparative
    mythology is not only possible, it can be useful.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  10. #20
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    > Ariadne wrote:
    > Otherwise Brownies, goblins, bogeymen are mostly
    > unknown and the "elf" is confused with a pixie (thanks
    > goodness they made a film of Tolkien`s "Lord of
    > the rings", so most know a true elf today). Oh, and if
    > you ask a German after a gremlin, you will get the
    > answer: "Oh, these little hairy monsters with the
    > large ears of the film..."

    This is because rather than translating these creatures,
    within a culture we known them by one name. These are
    all the many names of one kind of creature. Its like
    arguinig that puerta, Tür, porte, door, and the name of
    this object in every language represents a different
    object.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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