Question...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:07 AM

> OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
> stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
> new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

I was thinking more of the kind of arcane manipulation which created the
owlbear. I am looking forward to creating flocks of Squeegee.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Good coverage, reasoned rationale.

Thank you. =)

> There is also a fantasy-style interbreeding that does not make elves
> and humans inter-fertile but rather the elves could have the
> power/ability/natural reproductive system of quickening a child when
> great love or great need is present - such a magical union need not be
> a blending of two species at all.

So, this is not so much interbreeding as it is parthenogenesis? That is,
the child is called a "half-elf" because it has only one physical parent,
which is an elf? This strikes me as a fascinating version of my case 4 --
I`d like to hear more.

> Given the "elves are creatures of starlight and pixie dust" (whether
> this is literal or not is unimportant - it`s meant as a description of
> the wide gap between elves and whatever) - I think that for Cerilia,
> it will be my choice.

You may even convert me -- this sort of natural ability to one-off for
highly personal reasons does seem a lot more consistent with the setting
than the sci-fi cliche "vat grown warrior servant race" that previously
shaded my interpretation of Cerilian half-elves.

One other aspect of my version of half-elves that I don`t recall if I`ve
mentioned previously is that there is a difficult and obscure but still
occasionally practiced ritual to turn humans (and possibly, but not
necessarily, elves) into half-elves (but not, I think, vice-versa). This
is an interpretation of the ancient myths about people who spend a night
in fairyland and return to find that decades or centuries have passed; it
also works well with your idea of "lifestyle immortality" -- humans turned
into half-elves this way can live forever if they stay in fairyland, but
grow old and die if they leave. Literary sources for this idea range from
an alteration of Earendil`s choice in Tolkien, to Sinclair and Delenn in
Babylon 5, to the AD&D 2e FR "Cormanthyr" supplement, and IMO to veiled
plot hooks in some of the BR materials. There are a couple of ostensibly
human wizards in Anuire and Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment)
who are rumored to be much older than they look, and have once disappeared
to parts unknown for a long time, after which they came back both more
powerful and different somehow. IMC, they went to the ancient Sidhelien
forests and were turned into half-elves. Their reasons for doing it are
clear: longer life, a chance to study with the best wizards on the planet,
and IMC since bloodline and elven ancestry each separately enable
wizardry, having both makes you even better at it. What the elves get out
of it is less clear; presumably various forms of service are required as
payment, and powerful geases are placed on the recipient to make sure that
the powerup works to advance rather than hinder the Sidhelien cause.

> You could also have a common ancestry theory. Elves and humans are
> descended from the same roots - this does not fit in many fantasy
> situations where there are separate creation myths for each species.

Hmm. I suppose this is a variation of -- or rather, a particular
background justification for -- case 2 or 3, depending on the degree of
speciation involved. I can`t say I like it, but I do think I`ve
categorized it.


Ryan Caveney

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 00:13, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:07 AM

> OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
> stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
> new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

I was thinking more of the kind of arcane manipulation which created the
owlbear. I am looking forward to creating flocks of Squeegee.

flocks or schools? I don`t think that the collective noun for Squeegee
should be `flocks`. ---
? swarms ? or how about ?pools? perhaps we can set up an on-line vote


Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 02:12, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Good coverage, reasoned rationale.

Thank you. =)

> There is also a fantasy-style interbreeding that does not make elves
> and humans inter-fertile but rather the elves could have the
> power/ability/natural reproductive system of quickening a child when
> great love or great need is present - such a magical union need not be
> a blending of two species at all.

So, this is not so much interbreeding as it is parthenogenesis? That is,
the child is called a "half-elf" because it has only one physical parent,
which is an elf? This strikes me as a fascinating version of my case 4 --
I`d like to hear more.

Just pointing out more options - not advocating a particular one. But
not quite parthenogenesis - which if memory serves, creates a clone of
the original - but a true new child. I mean who can be certain that
elves have a similar reproductive system to humans in the first place --
an immortal race raises deep reproductive issues which have been dealt
with in fiction many times over. Such a race would either naturally have
some kind of birth control, or strict cultural birth control, or
possibly no way of generally reproducing. The conditions for elven
reproduction may not be simply physical.



> Given the "elves are creatures of starlight and pixie dust" (whether
> this is literal or not is unimportant - it`s meant as a description of
> the wide gap between elves and whatever) - I think that for Cerilia,
> it will be my choice.

You may even convert me -- this sort of natural ability to one-off for
highly personal reasons does seem a lot more consistent with the setting
than the sci-fi cliche "vat grown warrior servant race" that previously
shaded my interpretation of Cerilian half-elves.

One other aspect of my version of half-elves that I don`t recall if I`ve
mentioned previously is that there is a difficult and obscure but still
occasionally practiced ritual to turn humans (and possibly, but not
necessarily, elves) into half-elves (but not, I think, vice-versa).

That`s quite benign really. (Sort of Vampiric too) The Tolkien orcs are
either twisted elves or failed attempts to breed elves -- now they
should be able to inter-breed (hee hee). Did you catch the interesting
way that the birth/reproduction/whatever-it-was of the Urak-Hai and
Olog-Hai (Sarumans creations - spelling is probably incorrect) were
portrayed in Fellowship of the Ring movie?

This
is an interpretation of the ancient myths about people who spend a night
in fairyland and return to find that decades or centuries have passed; it
also works well with your idea of "lifestyle immortality" -- humans turned
into half-elves this way can live forever if they stay in fairyland, but
grow old and die if they leave. Literary sources for this idea range from
an alteration of Earendil`s choice in Tolkien, to Sinclair and Delenn in
Babylon 5, to the AD&D 2e FR "Cormanthyr" supplement, and IMO to veiled
plot hooks in some of the BR materials.

As one of Goldie Hawn`s old comic partners would say. "Interesting, very
interesting .."

There are a couple of ostensibly
human wizards in Anuire and Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment)
who are rumored to be much older than they look, and have once disappeared
to parts unknown for a long time, after which they came back both more
powerful and different somehow. IMC, they went to the ancient Sidhelien
forests and were turned into half-elves. Their reasons for doing it are
clear: longer life, a chance to study with the best wizards on the planet,
and IMC since bloodline and elven ancestry each separately enable
wizardry, having both makes you even better at it. What the elves get out
of it is less clear; presumably various forms of service are required as
payment, and powerful geases are placed on the recipient to make sure that
the powerup works to advance rather than hinder the Sidhelien cause.

> You could also have a common ancestry theory. Elves and humans are
> descended from the same roots - this does not fit in many fantasy
> situations where there are separate creation myths for each species.

Hmm. I suppose this is a variation of -- or rather, a particular
background justification for -- case 2 or 3, depending on the degree of
speciation involved. I can`t say I like it, but I do think I`ve
categorized it.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> What if immortality is related to the Sidhelien life-style (good clean
> living caring for nature, nothing bad in your body kind of thing)? Then
> technically their bodies simply don`t age - although they can still die
> of course. Certain events in their lifetime might age them slightly but
> not on the day-to-day basis that other races do.

I actually use a variation on this IMC, but it`s not so much "lifestyle"
as it is magical biology. That is, IMC, the way Sidhelien immortality
operates is that they draw sustenance directly from ambient magical
energy: that is, mebhaighl. My Sidhelien can only really live
comfortably in a province with a source potential of at least six. In
provinces with potential nine, they have stat and speed bonuses, and don`t
actually need to eat at all unless they want to. Around source potential
3, they become susceptible to disease, need to sleep, and have to eat
about twice as much as a human of the same mass. Below that, they have
stat and speed penalties, tire easily, need to eat much more than humans
do to maintain health, and actually begin to age. Trapped in a province
with source potential zero, an elf will die of magical starvation in about
a week. All these bad effects can be halted or reversed by going back
into a province with a sufficiently high source potential and staying
there long enough.

> In such cases a half-elf raised with elves would be similarly
> influenced. Violence and adventuring outside (where the customs of
> other peoples are by necessity adopted even temporarily) will slowly
> age the character - even an elf character -

I can use this idea in my own model easily enough -- lesser penalties for
being outside the ancient forests, at the price of lesser benefits inside
them -- though I`d look at it as inhospitable terrain (inadequate "food"
supply) rather than unhippie customs. ;)

> although returning to the forest homes can return the character to a
> state of statsis. (does that last phrase even make sense)

Yes, perfectly.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 00:13, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> > From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
> >
> > > OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of
> > > what the stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me?
> > > Appearing soon, a new awnshegh: The Squeagle!
> >
> > I was thinking more of the kind of arcane manipulation which
> > created the owlbear. I am looking forward to creating flocks
> > of Squeegee.
>
> flocks or schools? I don`t think that the collective noun for Squeegee
> should be `flocks`. --- ? swarms ? or how about ?pools? perhaps we
> can set up an on-line vote


What have I done?! I`ve created a monster! ;>

BTW, you guys are *weird*.

Which is presumably why I hang out here.


Ryan

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:12 AM


> There are a couple of ostensibly human wizards in Anuire and
> Khinasi (whose names escape me at the moment) who are rumored
> to be much older than they look, and have once disappeared
> to parts unknown for a long time, after which they came back both
> more powerful and different somehow. IMC, they went to the ancient
> Sidhelien forests and were turned into half-elves.

This is very interesting. One such wizard is Torele Anviras of Talinie.
His description there tells us he ran off into the woods and didn`t emerge
until the recent guild activity in Talinie began to cut down the forests.
That cutting almost led to war with Tuarhievel. Suddenly Torele appears,
not a month aged, and brokers a settlement. He seemed to erect a tower
overnight, declared himself mage of Talinie (IMC he also usurped his old
families title as Earl of Freestad by mysterious means.) His personality is
said to be changed, he is said to wield great powers, and he has these
connections with the elves. He is distant from others, and may very well
have been converted into a semi-sidhe.

> What the elves get out of it is less clear; presumably various forms
> of service are required as payment, and powerful geases are placed
> on the recipient to make sure that the powerup works to advance
> rather than hinder the Sidhelien cause.

Well in Torele`s case, the elves seemed to get somthing pretty clear.
"Everyone regards him as an indispensible aid to the realm`s defense."
Putting an indispensible man into Talinie suddenly gives the elves
tremendous leverage over the policy of that realm. He may combat the
guilds, and for his cooperation against the goblins, demand other things
pleasing to Tuarhievel as well. As far as the printed material (any IMC as
well) Torele Anviras has the highest bloodline as well.

Its too good not to use in some form. Many thanks.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:37 AM


> Just pointing out more options - not advocating a particular one. But
> not quite parthenogenesis - which if memory serves, creates a clone of
> the original - but a true new child. I mean who can be certain that
> elves have a similar reproductive system to humans in the first place --

Pathenos just means virgin. So any virgin birth (merry Chirstmas) is an
example of parthenogenisis.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 06:33 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Can`t wait for the template.....seriously, you mentioned it - let`s see it!

Actually, I`ve come to the conclusion that one should use either the eagle
or the squid template to express an eagle-squid offspring. Coming up with
stats for such a hybrid would imply that they are a race apart.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 02:26 PM 9/24/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

>@all Birthright-L users: If you quote something, please delete or
>mark the rest somehow, if possible. After quoting someone a third time, no
>one can realize, what actually is written! It`s very confusing to read
>something a third time and realize then, it`s only a quote... (sorry for
>the off topic)

I`ve asked Arjan about this particular issue, so we`ll see if he can come
up with something. He`s got an excellent track record and has done great
work combining these two communities, so whether he can wave his magic
keyboard and solve this problem or not we should all pucker up and send him
a big smooch for all his effort. (He may prefer Paypal contributions, but
it`s the thought that counts.)

Gary

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