Question...

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 00:24, daniel mcsorley wrote:

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
> template.

Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.

Congrats, you know what a template is. But not a race right?

Half-elves are a beautiful thing. They aren`t a race or a template.

--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 01:10, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I`m not doing away with the concept entirely - just questioning the
> validity of the original assumption that it is a race apart.

As I see it, there are four ways to play it.

Good coverage, reasoned rationale.
There is also a fantasy-style interbreeding that does not make elves and
humans inter-fertile but rather the elves could have the
power/ability/natural reproductive system of quickening a child when
great love or great need is present - such a magical union need not be a
blending of two species at all. Given the "elves are creatures of
starlight and pixie dust" (whether this is literal or not is unimportant
- it`s meant as a description of the wide gap between elves and
whatever) - I think that for Cerilia, it will be my choice.

You could also have a common ancestry theory. Elves and humans are
descended from the same roots - this does not fit in many fantasy
situations where there are separate creation myths for each species.


One: There is no such thing as a half-elf. Elves and humans are not
interfertile any more than eagles and squid are. No need to define them,
since they do not exist. All "canon" half-elves must be revised to be one
or the other. They do not exist, so are not a race apart.

Two: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
sterile just as mules are. No need to worry about 1/32nd elves. The D&D
half-elf "race" is just as easy to justify and apply as the mule entry in
the MM. They are a race apart for a firm, "scientific" reason.

Three: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
fertile just as their parents are. Now we do need to worry about people
as mixed as Arwen Undomiel (reading the genealogies carefully, she is
technically 25/32nds elf (mixing four distinct kindreds of the same, mind
you), 5/16ths human and 1/32nd Maia, being descended from every single
interspecies mating in First Age history). How shall we represent them in
game terms? Three categories, as the present system uses, is not a bad
first approximation. The trouble comes when drawing the lines. 0-24%,
25-75% and 76-100% would be just fine if all characteristics were
continuous and finite: you just average the parents on every trait you can
imagine, and then apply a small random factor for variety.
Unfortunately, in BR we have two binary traits: immortality and wizardry.
What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
anything is still infinity. However, I feel that human blood should be
weak and corrupting from the Sidhelien POV, so IMO any human ancestry at
all makes a person at most a half-elf. OTOH, it is said that one needs a
bloodline or "elven blood" to be able to practice wizardry. How much is
enough? To take LoTR again, when in the recent movie version Aragorn
speaks of having "the same blood" as Isildur, he is being extremely
poetic, as over 3000 years intervene, and perusal of the king lists makes
the difference about 35 generations. Should that make him a half-elf in
D&D terms? (Certainly it made him a man far above normal men, as at the
start of the book he is already 87 years old, and lives to be 210!) If
so, then half of Cerilia would be populated by such "half"-elves, all
capable of full wizard magic. I think if one were to apply this sort of
model to BR, the proper fractions would be to place those from at least
1/8 elf to anything less than completely elf into the middle category, for
simplicity generally known as "half"-elves. They are not a race apart,
but for game mechanical purposes it is generally more convenient to model
them as if they were (for example, since no bonus or penalty is bigger
than +/-2, there`s no point in more categorization than 0,+/-1,+/-2).

Four: half-elves are a different race entirely. Elves and humans are not
interfertile, so "half-elf" is perhaps the wrong name for this race, as
they have some other source. This is in fact the case IMC, as ISTR
posting to the list about only a few months ago. This race, no more
literally half an elf than a guinea pig is literally a pig from Guinea, is
then as deserving of a D&D "race" as are elves, humans, dwarves, etc.
However, they ought to have some connection that inspired the name in the
first place. They are a race apart, due to the logical structure of the
universe.

IMC, I use the fourth option. Most humans think the third is true, but
the real story is that "half-elves" are actually a different species of
being from either elves or humans, who were originally created by the
elves (and dragons?), as a sort of servitor race and experiment in
understanding the psychodynamics of mortals, and have maintained
themselves by means of breeding true (by explictly strangely magical
means) as "pure" "half"-elves with each other and both humans and
Sidhelien (while simultaneously not replacing the humans because both
humans and elves find them very strange, and rather creepy if their true
origins are known). IMC, most humans who think they`ve met elves have in
fact only met half-elves, working as the public faces of their masters,
getting their hands dirty dealing with the filthy, verminous humans. If
they`d met *real*, *full* elves, they`d be *much* more frightened.


Ryan Caveney

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 04:31, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
>
> > What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity
> > and anything is still infinity.
>
> What if elven life spans are not actually infinite, but just approach
> infinity as a limit? Then we could use calculus to to find the proper
> age of a half-elf. ;-)

*grin* Now you`re speaking my language. I suppose we could work out
complete actuarial tables for the elves, but for some probability
distributions, you could still manage an infinite average even if the
probability of living longer than a few thousand years was vanishingly
small (it`s that old "so what is 0 times infinity, anyway?" problem).

But to talk more seriously about BR, what *do* people feel half-elf
lifespans should be (assuming, of course, you think they should exist at
all)? I realize this is influenced by the varying opinions on the reality
of Sidhelien immortality (personally, I like it to be literal, at least in
Tolkien`s "ever youthful barring violence" sense, rather than figurative),
but that should only flavor the discussion, not control it. I like them
to seem immortal to humans and evanescent to elves; this seems as if it
should put them somewhere in the 500-1000 range. Comments?

What if immortality is related to the Sidhelien life-style (good clean
living caring for nature, nothing bad in your body kind of thing)? Then
technically their bodies simply don`t age - although they can still die
of course. Certain events in their lifetime might age them slightly but
not on the day-to-day basis that other races do.

In such cases a half-elf raised with elves would be similarly
influenced. Violence and adventuring outside (where the customs of other
peoples are by necessity adopted even temporarily) will slowly age the
character - even an elf character - although returning to the forest
homes can return the character to a state of statsis. (does that last
phrase even make sense)



Ryan Caveney

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 04:50, Gary Foss wrote:

daniel mcsorley writes:

>> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
>> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
>> template.
>
> Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
> base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
> couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.

I think part of the problem with the "race apart" concept is the simple use
of templates to express racial characteristics. Templates, of course, are
also used to describe half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, as well as
things like ghosts and vampires. Many people like the idea that
awnsheghlien are expressed as a template. Half-elves are "a race apart" in
that they have their own template, but they aren`t "a race apart" in the
sense that I think some folks are taking that term to mean. Templates
define racial characteristics, but the issue apparently being raised
originally was whether or not half-elves should be different enough from
either elves or humans to warrant their own template. Most folks say "yes"
particularly given the assumption that so many other racial mixes are
represented as a template using characteristics of each parent.

Chicken and egg syndrome here. The `half-elf` was the first half-breed -
which was rationale for the others I think. I don`t think you can then
argue that the existence of the others explains the half-elf.

But enough of this I think. Whether they are a race apart or not - I was
not suggesting abandoning the concept of the half-elf. I think that
given the arguments presented already - there is a good reason to
abandon their template - as there is sufficient variation within
templates to explain the elf characteristics in an (half-)human, and the
human characteristics in an (half-)elf without the need for a hybrid
template.

The name `half-elf` is significant itself -- it implies that the
character is human - with some elf. That is, we only need to mention the
`taint` so to speak (no disrespect intended). But most players want a
character that is almost all elf with just enough human to avoid the
restrictions on elves - such a character is more properly an elf - or if
you prefer a `half-human`, that is an elf with some human
characteristics.


As for half-elves being a mistake of nature... that`s possible. But if they
are humans and elves were probably the first mistake....

Gary

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[geeman]

At 02:24 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I think part of the problem with the "race apart" concept is the
> simple use
> of templates to express racial characteristics. Templates, of
> course, are
> also used to describe half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, as
> well as
> things like ghosts and vampires. Many people like the idea that
> awnsheghlien are expressed as a template. Half-elves are "a race
> apart" in
> that they have their own template, but they aren`t "a race apart" in the
> sense that I think some folks are taking that term to mean. Templates
> define racial characteristics, but the issue apparently being raised
> originally was whether or not half-elves should be different enough from
> either elves or humans to warrant their own template. Most folks say
> "yes"
> particularly given the assumption that so many other racial mixes are
> represented as a template using characteristics of each parent.
>
>Chicken and egg syndrome here. The `half-elf` was the first half-breed -
>which was rationale for the others I think.

That may be, though I think for someone who normally lauds the earlier
rules this is a strange place to make a departure.... No grand eloquence
to the early incarnation of the half-elf like that of the 1 minute combat
round or the arcane numerology of the -10 rule? Weren`t the early D&D game
designers much closer to the source of their thinking on the
subject? Surely you`re faith hasn`t waivered.... (More on this in a moment.)

>I don`t think you can then argue that the existence of the others explains
>the half-elf.

No? Why not?

Even if that argument isn`t convincing, however, it wasn`t what I was tryng
to suggest. What I was trying to get at was that the term "a race apart"
is misleading. It expresses the half-elf template as being as different
from either the elven template or the human template as they are from one
another when, in fact, the template is a mix of both. Describing
half-elves as "a race apart" gives the impression that the mating of a
human and an elf makes for a goblin child. The term "a race apart" is
incorrectly applied to the mixing of two races when the templates in
question is very similar to both the races from which it is derived.

Anyway, I`m not arguing that the existence of others explains the
half-elf. I`m arguing that half-elves as similar to, but using slightly
different stats from humans and elves, fits into the standard that has been
around since the beginning of the game. Ignore the half-elf for a
moment. D&D assumes that many crossed creatures, whether they come from
mating or not, will have attributes of both (or all three, all four) of the
creatures from which they are derived. There are scads of examples of
this. Again--still ignoring half-elves--we could include from very early
in the game half-orcs, minotaurs, monstrous creatures like chimeras and
sphinxes. Later D&D racial/monstrous combinations produced cambions,
gorgimera, yuan ti, half-dragons, half-ogres, half-giants, half-etc. There
are probably dozens more that we could find if we cared to go through 30 or
so years of D&D products. (But let`s not.) Each of these creatures has
characteristics derived from both their parents (or whatever the entities
are upon which they are based) and usually represent a middle ground
between those two (or three+.)

OK, with that in perspective let`s now take a look at the half-elf. You`re
saying that in this particular case half-elves should take on the
characteristics of one or the other of their parents. Of course, there is
a rationale for doing so--Tolkien`s half-elves. To me, that`s all you need
to justify such a decision. In fact, "I feel like it" is grounds enough.

BUT.

There`s been a standard in place here for a long time. It`s cool to throw
out that standard for an exceptional case, but I would suggest that not
only are half-elves not an exceptional case, they fit right in there along
with the rest. Tolkien`s elves could choose to be elf or human but that
choice was all wrapped up in the cosmology of his setting, which is mostly
lacking in most D&D settings. (In actuality the Tolkien half-elf choice
was elf or super long-lived human hybrid--with an eternal soul in place of
eternal youth--and more mystical powers than a typical human.) BR elves
are closer to the Tolkien standard of elfdom, but there are still
significant differences, and the campaign setting already has a pretty big
background cosmology that differs in significant respects from Tolkien`s.

>But enough of this I think. Whether they are a race apart or not - I was
>not suggesting abandoning the concept of the half-elf. I think that given
>the arguments presented already - there is a good reason to
>abandon their template - as there is sufficient variation within templates
>to explain the elf characteristics in an (half-)human, and the human
>characteristics in an (half-)elf without the need for a hybrid template.

I`m going to suggest that there aren`t enough elven characteristics in the
human template to express the half-elf, nor are there enough human
characteristics in the elven template to express the half-elf. Besides,
it`s just so easy, sensible and in keeping with the standard to pick a few
traits from either template to come to a middle ground....

>The name `half-elf` is significant itself -- it implies that the character
>is human - with some elf. That is, we only need to mention the `taint` so
>to speak (no disrespect intended).

Unless there are again definitions to these terms being applied that I`m
unaware of, "half-elf" implies that the character is half elven and half
human. A character "with some elf" or "tainted" would be something less
than "half." There are a couple of examples of how having a small amount
of elven blood can influence a character, and I think those might be better
to portray a character with something less than 1/4 elven heritage.

>But most players want a character that is almost all elf with just enough
>human to avoid the restrictions on elves - such a character is more
>properly an elf - or if you prefer a `half-human`, that is an elf with
>some human characteristics.

That`s news to me. I`ve never had a player express that that was what they
were after in playing a half-elf character. I`ve played a few myself and
that particular dichotomy never occurred to me. I always figured
half-elves got about half their characteristics (game mechanical and
otherwise) from each of their parents.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 11:10 AM 9/23/2002 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>Elves and humans are not interfertile any more than eagles and squid are.

OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 15:35, Gary wrote:

At 02:24 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:



That may be, though I think for someone who normally lauds the earlier
rules this is a strange place to make a departure.... No grand eloquence
to the early incarnation of the half-elf like that of the 1 minute combat
round or the arcane numerology of the -10 rule? Weren`t the early D&D game
designers much closer to the source of their thinking on the
subject? Surely you`re faith hasn`t waivered.... (More on this in a moment.)

In this case, yes, I don`t think that they should have introduced the
half-elf, or the wood elf, the valley elf, the grugarch, the dark elf as
anything other than variations within the elf race -- most of which were
eventually dropped anyway. Elf was quite sufficient.


>I don`t think you can then argue that the existence of the others explains
>the half-elf.

No? Why not?

Even if that argument isn`t convincing, however, it wasn`t what I was tryng
to suggest. What I was trying to get at was that the term "a race apart"
is misleading. It expresses the half-elf template as being as different
from either the elven template or the human template as they are from one
another when, in fact, the template is a mix of both. Describing
half-elves as "a race apart" gives the impression that the mating of a
human and an elf makes for a goblin child. The term "a race apart" is
incorrectly applied to the mixing of two races when the templates in
question is very similar to both the races from which it is derived.

Anyway, I`m not arguing that the existence of others explains the
half-elf. I`m arguing that half-elves as similar to, but using slightly
different stats from humans and elves, fits into the standard that has been
around since the beginning of the game.

Oh, okay then.

Ignore the half-elf for a
moment. D&D assumes that many crossed creatures, whether they come from
mating or not, will have attributes of both (or all three, all four) of the
creatures from which they are derived. There are scads of examples of
this. Again--still ignoring half-elves--we could include from very early
in the game half-orcs, minotaurs, monstrous creatures like chimeras and
sphinxes. Later D&D racial/monstrous combinations produced cambions,
gorgimera, yuan ti, half-dragons, half-ogres, half-giants, half-etc. There
are probably dozens more that we could find if we cared to go through 30 or
so years of D&D products. (But let`s not.) Each of these creatures has
characteristics derived from both their parents (or whatever the entities
are upon which they are based) and usually represent a middle ground
between those two (or three+.)

Somewhat generalizing here, but going with the theme of the argument ...
(while reserving rebuttal in many instances)


OK, with that in perspective let`s now take a look at the half-elf. You`re
saying that in this particular case half-elves should take on the
characteristics of one or the other of their parents. Of course, there is
a rationale for doing so--Tolkien`s half-elves. To me, that`s all you need
to justify such a decision. In fact, "I feel like it" is grounds enough.

BUT.

There`s been a standard in place here for a long time. It`s cool to throw
out that standard for an exceptional case, but I would suggest that not
only are half-elves not an exceptional case, they fit right in there along
with the rest.

They are in fact the prototype of many of them. Others are real hybrids
or even failed magical duplication/cloning/whatever (rebutting the
earlier generalization now). So, no, I don`t think that they `fit right
in there along with the rest`. But again, following the argument as it
applies to *some* ...

Tolkien`s elves could choose to be elf or human but that
choice was all wrapped up in the cosmology of his setting, which is mostly
lacking in most D&D settings. (In actuality the Tolkien half-elf choice
was elf or super long-lived human hybrid--with an eternal soul in place of
eternal youth--and more mystical powers than a typical human.) BR elves
are closer to the Tolkien standard of elfdom, but there are still
significant differences, and the campaign setting already has a pretty big
background cosmology that differs in significant respects from Tolkien`s.

Is that it? ... (disappointment) started out as a possible real
argument. Am I missing something? And your point is?


>But enough of this I think. Whether they are a race apart or not - I was
>not suggesting abandoning the concept of the half-elf. I think that given
>the arguments presented already - there is a good reason to
>abandon their template - as there is sufficient variation within templates
>to explain the elf characteristics in an (half-)human, and the human
>characteristics in an (half-)elf without the need for a hybrid template.

I`m going to suggest that there aren`t enough elven characteristics in the
human template to express the half-elf, nor are there enough human
characteristics in the elven template to express the half-elf. Besides,
it`s just so easy, sensible and in keeping with the standard to pick a few
traits from either template to come to a middle ground....

>The name `half-elf` is significant itself -- it implies that the character
>is human - with some elf. That is, we only need to mention the `taint` so
>to speak (no disrespect intended).

Unless there are again definitions to these terms being applied that I`m
unaware of,

Common English language usage. (which I`m told is not so common on the
web - so I apologize)
The implied other `half` is human, with elf forming up to 50% -- more
correctly, in th English-speaking world, we`d use a term like
`part-Chinese` to describe someone who had some Chinese ancestry with
the other parts undefined - but assumed to be whatever the dominant
culture of the locale is. (The dominant culture in Cerilia and most D&D
worlds is human). In fact full-blooded rarely (I can`t think of an
example but just in case) means 100% pure ancestry. Without going
all-ethnic and risking overtures of politically incorrect racial tones
-- and remember that the term half-elf was composed 50 years ago --
half-`xxxxx` (insert race here) may simply imply a mixed heritage
(apologies to Arwen Evenstar) with no distinct ratio being implied.

"half-elf" implies that the character is half elven and half
human.

Gee, and here I thought we`d established that as total fiction. In fact
I thought that was the one thing that had been 100% established. (
Except in Ryan`s case 4. ) `half` as NOT meaning 50% in this case.

A character "with some elf" or "tainted" would be something less
than "half." There are a couple of examples of how having a small amount
of elven blood can influence a character, and I think those might be better
to portray a character with something less than 1/4 elven heritage.

>But most players want a character that is almost all elf with just enough
>human to avoid the restrictions on elves - such a character is more
>properly an elf - or if you prefer a `half-human`, that is an elf with
>some human characteristics.

That`s news to me. I`ve never had a player express that that was what they
were after in playing a half-elf character. I`ve played a few myself and
that particular dichotomy never occurred to me. I always figured
half-elves got about half their characteristics (game mechanical and
otherwise) from each of their parents.

Actually I`ve never played a half-elf, a full elf yes. In fact they`ve
been pretty rare in my campaigning - one does come to mind - and there
the motivation was to play a ranger character that had immediate access
to priest spells (half-elf ranger-cleric, yeah it was an old 1e
campaign). Oh and a half-elf priest-magic-user, whose motivation were to
get more spells than usual at early levels (being a first level mage
sucks). And I`ve never had to DM a half-elf either (that I can
remember).

It is rare in my experience to find a player that chooses his or her
character based on background or personality rather than ability - what
they can do.(actually both the above characters were played by female
players -- not enough of a sample for real statistics but given the
ratio of male to female role-players very interesting) i.e I`ve seen
players decide to play halflings `because they make better thieves` or
dwarves `because they have more hit points and better saving throws`.
(not that this is necessarily wrong but it does go to the question of
motive)

[will Argus the goat-god forgive my generalization here?] -- campaign
joke. Really. In one of my campaigns a player wanted to play a goat-god
-- actually wanted to play an insane character who thought he was a god
(of goats) -- ever adventured with someone who insists on bringing a
herd of goats with him? (it didn`t work out - my character and another
tried to `release the goats` - they smell and it`s real hard to move
fast or sneak up on anything with a herd of goats around - this ended up
splitting the party and creating a character vendetta -- fun but quite
silly. OH, the point .. yes .. the character class of the character was
priest (not god - although where he got his spells from was never fully
explained). Now this is a `class` not a `race` example but the
distinction in motive is the same.

Neither of the above players wished to play a half-elf because they
wanted the challenge of dealing with a hybrid heritage, but because they
wanted the advantage of that heritage.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 17:07, Gary wrote:

At 11:10 AM 9/23/2002 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>Elves and humans are not interfertile any more than eagles and squid are.

OK, did anyone else read that and immediately start thinking of what the
stats for the eagle-squid might be, or was it just me? Appearing soon, a
new awnshegh: The Squeagle!

Can`t wait for the template.....seriously, you mentioned it - let`s see
it!


Gary

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Half-elves are a beautiful thing. They aren`t a race or a template.

If we have discussed enough, that a halfelf is no race, no culture AND no template, what is he then (apart from hybrid)?


@all Birthright-L users: If you quote something, please delete or mark the rest somehow, if possible. After quoting someone a third time, no one can realize, what actually is written! It's very confusing to read something a third time and realize then, it's only a quote... (sorry for the off topic)

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 22:26, Ariadne wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=958

Ariadne wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Half-elves are a beautiful thing. They aren`t a race or a template.

If we have discussed enough, that a half elf is no race, no culture AND no template,
what is he then (apart from hybrid)?


A role-playing opportunity?
Realistically Gary is correct, they are too ingrained into the game to
be done away with. (much like paladins are!) But perhaps we don`t need
to work so hard on making them different. Maybe all they are is a hybrid
- under most of the explanations I`ve heard so far, that`s all that`s
justified. (Ryan`s choice 4 being a standout exception)

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