Question...

[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2002-09-23 at 03:34, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:05 AM


> You say a half-elf is defined by the template (Snort!). Bosh
> and nonsense. The template should define the half-elf not
> the other way around.

In both the sentence you criticize and the sentence you state yourself, the
template is the subject and the half-elf is the object being defined. The
only thing you did was change the passive voice to the active voice. There
has been no change of meaning, only a change of emphisis.

half-elf is defined by template (apparently a bad thing)
template defines half-elf (apprently a good thing)

Q. Why do we have a template for a half-elf? A. to define the
capabilities in game mechanics of a half-elf.
Q. Why do we have a half-elf? A. because we have a template for one.

dog is washed by children (no doubt a bad thing)
children wash dog (no doubt a good thing)

Peter, why is there a mule entry in the monster manual (p.199)? After all,
you argue that the child of a mixed kind should either be like the mother or
the father. So shouldn`t we just need entries for donkey (p. 196) and horse
(p. 197)? Why this persistant notion that hybrids cannot occupy some
intermediate place between both parents? When a sufficient sample of genetic traits is considered,
both genotype and phenotype do actually better resemble a 50-50 split than
the all or nothing split you propose.

Okay, better but still not good enough. Firstly, mule is sterile - it
does not constitute a RACE apart. I didn`t say that half-elves couldn`t
exist -- but why are they a RACE? What is a half-elf? I put it to you
that it does not constitute a race apart. There is no racial group
consisting of half-elves.

Secondly, and here is the genetics versus magical reproduction debate :-
how could a half-elf happen in the first place? At least a horse and
donkey are closely related. What is a half-elf? Is it a biological
cross-breed that breeds true - forming a new race? <-- this is hard to
accept (and has its won difficulties). Or, can they then breed freely
with humans and/or elves forming quarter-breeds etc? (as Gary implies)
Why then, in that case, are they a race apart at all?

(and thirdly, the original Monster Manual has to be considered a little
bit suspect - and subsequent MMs are derived from it. It was published -
and I suspect filled up quickly and cheaply - as a political bargaining
chip in a hostile D&D takeover plot. Aaah, isn`t life a good reflection
of our little fantasy game? MM was rushed out because the PH and DMG
didn`t have a hope of being finished in time to gain the upper hand and
establish AD&D (cf plain D&D) as a separate entity commercially - owned
and run by a different set of people - as D&D looked like being taken
over (and in fact did). History repeats itself with 3e of course.
Anyway, a lot of that book is pretty much filler - many mundane
creatures, all those dinosaurs - when you get down to it there wasn`t
very many monsters in it! ---- still it had us eagerly awaiting the
companion Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide ---- while copies
of original D&D began to gather dust on the shelves ... hee hee hee ---
worthy of a BR plotline don`t you think?)


I can understand that you don`t want to bother with a half-elf and just rule
them as one or the other. Fine. Gary apparently doesn`t distinguish
between aural and visual sensations in his campaign, so these things can be
done. But why the persistant argument that those of us who retain them are
clinging to Gygax or are just irrational? This strikes me a perfect case of
YMMV.

Oh no. I`m not saying it`s irrational. Just that you missed the point of
the argument. Hey, I think the concept adds great role-playing
opportunity, has a sound basis in fantasy literature (Tolkein).


Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Peter Lubke]

On Mon, 2002-09-23 at 06:01, Gary wrote:



>But no template for something that doesn`t exist - what is a half-elf?
>
>Put aside the templates, they are blinding you to the question. You
>don`t need a template for something that doesn`t exist - do you have a
>template for a 1/32 elf 5/32 dwarf 7/16 gnome 3/8 human? Do you NEED
>such a template? But I don`t want a template - I want to hear why there
>should be the concept of the half-elf, why this should get special
>treatment in mechanics.

Well, you raised the issue of 1/32 elf, etc. so I think I need to
comment. No, you don`t need templates for every possible permutation of
racial heritage. If for no other reason than because there aren`t enough
stats in the templates to reflect more than just a couple of
permutations. The existence of a middle step between the human template
and the elf template, however, is reasonable. (I`ll get to the "why" below.)

>If there`s no genetic explanation (magic, miracle, strange elven
>reproduction ability, whatever), then the child is as (or more) likely to
>be wholly human or wholly elf as any other result. If in fact, there is a
>genetic explanation (far less likely, most especially in Cerilia), then
>genetics is never exactly 50-50, and the child will always favor one
>parent - which coupled with upbringing sees an almost wholly human or (far
>more likely) wholly elf child after all.

The standard in fantasy is that certain races can mix in a way that
parallels genetics. Part of that standard is that (usually) such offspring
represent a mix of their parental characteristics, but the fantasy standard
aside, I don`t think a "realistic" genetic justification for a half-elf
would favor one parent over the other to the degree that you`re
suggesting.

Hmmm, okay that`s a good point. Although I wasn`t really talking about a
realistic genetic explanation - there is literature that does seem to
imply a mixing down to even a small amount of elf. (But again it usually
doesn`t create a separate RACE, nor do such characters have hybrid
abilities to the extent in D&D rules, sometimes just a minor or single
thing that the almost human or almost elf has: e.g. Arwen is mortal, but
that`s the only difference from elf.) [Examples from D&D fiction not
withstanding of course]

No, genetics is never exactly 50-50 but, similarly, it is
never 100-0, and it`s a mistake to think that because genetics isn`t an
exact 50-50 split that offspring will, therefore, automatically be
identical (in the template sense) to one or the other parent. Even if the
ratio is 75/25 that does not mean one should do away with the concept of a
half-elf entirely. The racial templates are themselves very broadly
defined, and the kinds of "parental favoring" you`re talking about are
probably better described as non-stat characteristics (hair, eyes color,
shape of the ear) or by going to the actual stats/ability scores of the
parent and using them for the basis of character generation.

I`m not doing away with the concept entirely - just questioning the
validity of the original assumption that it is a race apart.


Using your assumption that one parent`s influence will dominate, however,
let me as you this: Which one? Do you want to make half-elves humans or
elves?

From Tolkein: half-elves could choose - make a conscious choice. For me,
I`d say that the choice is not a conscious one - from a game mechanic
this begs the question of : when? when do you choose? The choice must be
made when the character is created - be consistent with the background
and the interpretation of how half-elves come to be. You could argue
that the union is magical - in which case the child would be what the
parents desire (or the gods deem appropriate). You could argue that the
union is biological, in which case you could just randomly determine.
You could argue that it`s a result of elf biological reproduction that
stimulates pregnancy or is stimulated by whatever
(love/emotion/non-magical something -- although some could argue that
love is magical) and have the child the same race as the mother. For
Cerilia: my adjudication is that most if not all half-elves are just
elves.

Unless your thinking that there`s some sort of dominant gene
responsible for Cerilian elven immortality, their ability score changes,
racial bonus to Listen, Spot, etc. then I think you need to go with a
hybrid mix of the two templates. I suppose if you really wanted to you
could come up with a fairly simple table of racial traits from each
template and roll randomly on it to determine specific genetic traits
getting passed on. That way you could wind up with half-elves who favored
one parent over the other randomly in a similar fashion to the roulette
wheel of actual mating. I still wouldn`t go that direction myself because
I think the half-elf template is broad enough with a few general tweaks
regarding background rather than race.

Then why aren`t the human or elf templates just as broad and just as
acceptable?


Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Hmmm... Well, I also think that half-elves might do well as priests (druids) of Erik. Avani, being Lady of Reason is not going to turn them down for just being of Elven blood. Laerme, being the goddess of beauty might appeal to
some of them.

My personal character IS a halfelf (Khinasi/Elf 50/50) and a cleric of Cuiraécen! In my opinion a half elf can take any religion, he wants. His elven blood tends to be chaotic and may be he likes nature and beauty, but he shouldn't be oppressed to take a specific religion.

If he is raised in Khinasi by his human parent, why shouldn't he follow Avani then. If he is chaotic and likes warfare, why shouldn’t he take Cuiraécen as a patron (and not, because he likes to be a bard).

By the way, a half elf is no template, it is a race! It might be difficult to define a cross blooded human (Khinasi/ Vos 50/50 or something), but in my opinion he should get the advantages of both sub races then. If he is Anuirean/ Rjurik 75/25, he should get the Anuirean advantages and light Rjurik features.

[kgauck]

Half-elves are not a race, nor a culture. They are hybrids. The gap
between elves and humans is plenty wide for the creation of an intermediate
possition, of a hybrid of the human and elf templates.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Ariadne]

I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no template.

[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
> template.

Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I`m not doing away with the concept entirely - just questioning the
> validity of the original assumption that it is a race apart.

As I see it, there are four ways to play it.

One: There is no such thing as a half-elf. Elves and humans are not
interfertile any more than eagles and squid are. No need to define them,
since they do not exist. All "canon" half-elves must be revised to be one
or the other. They do not exist, so are not a race apart.

Two: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
sterile just as mules are. No need to worry about 1/32nd elves. The D&D
half-elf "race" is just as easy to justify and apply as the mule entry in
the MM. They are a race apart for a firm, "scientific" reason.

Three: Half-elves are the offspring of an elf and a human, and they are
fertile just as their parents are. Now we do need to worry about people
as mixed as Arwen Undomiel (reading the genealogies carefully, she is
technically 25/32nds elf (mixing four distinct kindreds of the same, mind
you), 5/16ths human and 1/32nd Maia, being descended from every single
interspecies mating in First Age history). How shall we represent them in
game terms? Three categories, as the present system uses, is not a bad
first approximation. The trouble comes when drawing the lines. 0-24%,
25-75% and 76-100% would be just fine if all characteristics were
continuous and finite: you just average the parents on every trait you can
imagine, and then apply a small random factor for variety.
Unfortunately, in BR we have two binary traits: immortality and wizardry.
What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
anything is still infinity. However, I feel that human blood should be
weak and corrupting from the Sidhelien POV, so IMO any human ancestry at
all makes a person at most a half-elf. OTOH, it is said that one needs a
bloodline or "elven blood" to be able to practice wizardry. How much is
enough? To take LoTR again, when in the recent movie version Aragorn
speaks of having "the same blood" as Isildur, he is being extremely
poetic, as over 3000 years intervene, and perusal of the king lists makes
the difference about 35 generations. Should that make him a half-elf in
D&D terms? (Certainly it made him a man far above normal men, as at the
start of the book he is already 87 years old, and lives to be 210!) If
so, then half of Cerilia would be populated by such "half"-elves, all
capable of full wizard magic. I think if one were to apply this sort of
model to BR, the proper fractions would be to place those from at least
1/8 elf to anything less than completely elf into the middle category, for
simplicity generally known as "half"-elves. They are not a race apart,
but for game mechanical purposes it is generally more convenient to model
them as if they were (for example, since no bonus or penalty is bigger
than +/-2, there`s no point in more categorization than 0,+/-1,+/-2).

Four: half-elves are a different race entirely. Elves and humans are not
interfertile, so "half-elf" is perhaps the wrong name for this race, as
they have some other source. This is in fact the case IMC, as ISTR
posting to the list about only a few months ago. This race, no more
literally half an elf than a guinea pig is literally a pig from Guinea, is
then as deserving of a D&D "race" as are elves, humans, dwarves, etc.
However, they ought to have some connection that inspired the name in the
first place. They are a race apart, due to the logical structure of the
universe.

IMC, I use the fourth option. Most humans think the third is true, but
the real story is that "half-elves" are actually a different species of
being from either elves or humans, who were originally created by the
elves (and dragons?), as a sort of servitor race and experiment in
understanding the psychodynamics of mortals, and have maintained
themselves by means of breeding true (by explictly strangely magical
means) as "pure" "half"-elves with each other and both humans and
Sidhelien (while simultaneously not replacing the humans because both
humans and elves find them very strange, and rather creepy if their true
origins are known). IMC, most humans who think they`ve met elves have in
fact only met half-elves, working as the public faces of their masters,
getting their hands dirty dealing with the filthy, verminous humans. If
they`d met *real*, *full* elves, they`d be *much* more frightened.


Ryan Caveney

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 10:10 AM

> What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity and
> anything is still infinity.

Prepratory ;-)

What if elven life spans are not actually infinite, but just approach
infinity as a limit? Then we could use calculus to to find the proper age
of a half-elf. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
>
> > What is the normal lifespan of a half-elf? The average of infinity
> > and anything is still infinity.
>
> What if elven life spans are not actually infinite, but just approach
> infinity as a limit? Then we could use calculus to to find the proper
> age of a half-elf. ;-)

*grin* Now you`re speaking my language. I suppose we could work out
complete actuarial tables for the elves, but for some probability
distributions, you could still manage an infinite average even if the
probability of living longer than a few thousand years was vanishingly
small (it`s that old "so what is 0 times infinity, anyway?" problem).

But to talk more seriously about BR, what *do* people feel half-elf
lifespans should be (assuming, of course, you think they should exist at
all)? I realize this is influenced by the varying opinions on the reality
of Sidhelien immortality (personally, I like it to be literal, at least in
Tolkien`s "ever youthful barring violence" sense, rather than figurative),
but that should only flavor the discussion, not control it. I like them
to seem immortal to humans and evanescent to elves; this seems as if it
should put them somewhere in the 500-1000 range. Comments?


Ryan Caveney

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[geeman]

daniel mcsorley writes:

>> I know, that some think of halfelves as a mistake of nature (or their
>> parents, if you want). They might be hybrids, but certainly no
>> template.
>
> Um, all the races in 3e D&D are represented by templates applied to the
> base character. A dwarf is a base character with +2 con, -2 cha, and a
> couple of other bits tacked on. That`s a template.

I think part of the problem with the "race apart" concept is the simple use
of templates to express racial characteristics. Templates, of course, are
also used to describe half-dragons, half-celestials, half-fiends, as well as
things like ghosts and vampires. Many people like the idea that
awnsheghlien are expressed as a template. Half-elves are "a race apart" in
that they have their own template, but they aren`t "a race apart" in the
sense that I think some folks are taking that term to mean. Templates
define racial characteristics, but the issue apparently being raised
originally was whether or not half-elves should be different enough from
either elves or humans to warrant their own template. Most folks say "yes"
particularly given the assumption that so many other racial mixes are
represented as a template using characteristics of each parent.

As for half-elves being a mistake of nature... that`s possible. But if they
are humans and elves were probably the first mistake....

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.