Question...

[kgauck]

Racial memory? I`m talking about sense perception.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 12:39 AM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A race of its own?
>Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so lets accept with a leap of faith
>that a conjoining can bear fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as
>an elf, eating elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
>being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian elves do for
>products of such a union) - how would it be different from an elf?
[SNIP]
>At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of a Brecht and
>Khinasi pairing?

I think there`s two different issues here. For simplicity I`ll call them
"race" and "culture" even though those terms aren`t very accurate. In 3e
race (dwarf, elf, goblin, human) is reflected as a template, while the best
option for culture is a list of optional background feats. The standard at
present is that race takes precedence over culture and determines what are,
in effect, background feats for a character, but really all races should
have a few background feats to choose from not just humans. The logic
would seem to be that because demi-human and humanoid races exist in such
smaller numbers than humans (which usually the case in any fantasy setting)
their culture can be assumed to be part of their racial make-up. There`s
usually a few racial characteristics for 3e racial templates that are
similar to background feats.

Should a human raised in elven/dwarven/halfling society have a different
set of background feats to choose from? Absolutely. Those feats should be
different from things that are at the racial "template" level, though. It
wouldn`t be terribly difficult to pick out a few of the racial
characteristics of elves and turn them into background feats for a human
raised by them. Longsword and bow proficiency, for instance, could be a
racial feat. Bonuses to Listen, Search and Spot checks might as well. (I
combine Listen and Spot into one skill, personally, so a +2 on two
different skills works nicely.) Recent threads have suggested the use of
feats to gain additional favored classes, so that could be a background
feat too. Things like actual ability score bonuses/penalties, immunity to
certain spells and, of course, immortality would be best as part of the
racial template.

As for a Brecht-Khinasi (or any other cross) character, I think they should
have access to whatever background feats they predominately were raised in,
since those kinds of things are the product of nurture not nature. If a
player decided that he wanted his PC to have a background in both
cultures--his parents got joint custody or something ;)--then I`d roll his
choice of optional background feats randomly from a list for each.

As for exactly what comprises a half-elf in 3e, I can`t cite chapter and
page number on this off the top of my head, but I recall some pre-3e source
suggesting that anything between 50% and 99% elven was considered
half-elf. An elf has to be 100% elven. More than 50% human blood makes
someone a human. Personally, I think this is a kind of goofy way to go,
and would prefer something more along the lines that anyone whose heritage
is 25% to 75% elven is a half-elf, and anything over 75% heritage makes
them an elf or human. In another campaign I had "elf-touched humans," 1/4,
1/2, 3/4 and "human-touched elves" with different stats for each but that
was a whole other deal and "half-elves" in that campaign were pretty close
to standard 3e elves.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

As for exactly what comprises a half-elf in 3e, I can`t cite chapter and
page number on this off the top of my head, but I recall some pre-3e source
suggesting that anything between 50% and 99% elven was considered
half-elf. An elf has to be 100% elven. More than 50% human blood makes
someone a human. Personally, I think this is a kind of goofy way to go,
and would prefer something more along the lines that anyone whose heritage
is 25% to 75% elven is a half-elf, and anything over 75% heritage makes
them an elf or human. In another campaign I had "elf-touched humans," 1/4,
1/2, 3/4 and "human-touched elves" with different stats for each but that
was a whole other deal and "half-elves" in that campaign were pretty close
to standard 3e elves.
-------

Yes, the genetics you cited above are the way I remember half-elves being
descriped to me (in 2E)... Your suggestion also has much merit... Of course,
the other option is to use the method used in the DL Chronicles as such...
If I remember correctly, Tanis and Larantha (may have the name a BIT wrong)
had a son, who was 3/4 elf and had features that evidenced it... as well as
(supposedly) a longer life than a half-elf, but shorter than a full elf
(though with the innumerable wars that happen on Krynn, I doubt ANY
character is going to go to his grave, warm and safe in bed)...

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 03:54, John Machin wrote:

Peter L:
> What`s a half-elf?
>
> Seriously. What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A
> race of its own? Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so
> lets accept with a leap of faith that a conjoining can bear
> fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as an elf, eating
> elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
> being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian
> elves do for products of such a union) - how would it be
> different from an elf?
>
> I cant see that they should be accepted as a RACE apart. Nor
> is there reason to accept them as individuals that are
> balanced between two cultures. Sure, from a role-playing
> perspective, - but from a mechanical one? It`s a very long
> bow to draw to.
>
> At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of
> a Brecht and Khinasi pairing? Surely, the child will favor
> one or the other parent. Surely, their upbringing will
> determine their culture far more than their genetics. Even a
> full-blooded Khinasi brought up in an entirely Brecht culture
> will be Brecht in outlook for example.
>
> Just a thought.

I`m actually similarly torn. I have been thinking about the Ritters, a
family of minor lords in Roesone (the stewards of Edlin or Duerlin
IIRC), who are descended from a Brecht companion of Daen Roesone. Given
that it is unlikely that the original Ritter brought his family with him
this family is certainly going to have been originally half-Brecht and
half-Anuirean. Are these people Brechts, or are they Anuireans who have
a habit of having lighter coloured hair and eyes and of teaching their
children Brecht? I would consider the Ritters to be the second and make
no distinction for "half-regional" humans.

Sidhelien however are different. They are magical eldritch creatures,
not just people with some different customs. I am actually inclined to
go a little "Tolkien" on this matter. Essentially the half-sidhe has a
choice - to either stay in the sidhe-forests and live as a sidhe
(although as a "weaker" sidhe) or to leave and travel, perhaps to join
some human society. This choice need not the conscious choice of the
half-elves of Tolkien`s world, the choice can be unconscious, although
probably not involuntary. Those who choose the sidhe-forest might tend
to live longer and develop more curious magical powers, whereas the ones
who leave become the typical "adventuring" half-elf who lives on the
fringes and has to deal with a lack of acceptance. This second group may
live for shorter periods of time and develop more worldly skills.
Finally, and probably only very rarely, there are half-sidhe who leave
the sidhe-forests and become accepted by human society.

I tend to agree - a half-breed of any kind really will have a more
dominant side, for elves it may be a matter of choice -- not
necessarilly a conscious one however.

Perhaps not so much as leave the forest - as never have been introduced
to the Sidhe way of life in the first place - although I think this case
in Cerilia would be rare, even for a half-human. (tee hee just having
fun with the half-full half-empty metaphor)


I would say that those half-sidhe living in the sidhe-forests would be
able to develop nearly all the skills, feats, and prestige classes (if
used) available to sidhelien of that area. Those that leave are more
likely to be considered as human adventurers of that particular region,
although there is certainly scope for the development of some magical
techniques or feat-based abilities that are normally the province of
true sidhelien.

I feel that most PC half-sidhe will be of the second variety. The first
group would tend ot be happy and "well-adjusted" (for sidhelien) and
therefore not be prone to adventuring beyond their own homes (I always
imagined sidhe-forests and rather interesting places). The second group
is virtually forced into a life of "adventuring" (i.e. wandering around
shiftless and homeless searching for things to do to survive and fend
off boredom).

I don`t personally think much of the argument about genetics. I consider
the taint of sidhe ancestry to be a curious magical thing and not a
matter of biology. I`m all for science in its place, I`m not convinced
that sidhelien-human breeding in BR needs to be examined genetically. I
also am unsure of the point in determining absolute psychological
patterns in a fictional race. I suppose it could by useful to some
people (I mean, obviously it is to Peter) but "my mileage varies" on
this regard.


I`m inclined to agree here - we can suspend disbelief in the `reality`
of genetics. The psychological makeup goes a long way to establishing
motivation and activity - a sort of ecology project.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 04:43, Gary wrote:

At 12:39 AM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>What`s a half-elf? a half-human? exactly 50-50? A race of its own?
>Genetics aside (it is a fantasy world so lets accept with a leap of faith
>that a conjoining can bear fruit), if a child was brought up entirely as
>an elf, eating elf food, learning elf customs, sharing the elf lifestyle,
>being treated as an elf (and this is exactly what Cerilian elves do for
>products of such a union) - how would it be different from an elf?
[SNIP]
>At a less extreme end of the viewpoint, what is the union of a Brecht and
>Khinasi pairing?

I think there`s two different issues here. For simplicity I`ll call them
"race" and "culture" even though those terms aren`t very accurate. In 3e
race (dwarf, elf, goblin, human) is reflected as a template, while the best
option for culture is a list of optional background feats. The standard at
present is that race takes precedence over culture and determines what are,
in effect, background feats for a character, but really all races should
have a few background feats to choose from not just humans. The logic
would seem to be that because demi-human and humanoid races exist in such
smaller numbers than humans (which usually the case in any fantasy setting)
their culture can be assumed to be part of their racial make-up. There`s
usually a few racial characteristics for 3e racial templates that are
similar to background feats.

Race and culture is a good discriminant. I`ll accept that as good and
adding value. What you are saying is that Brecht and Anuirean are
culture variants on a race - even to the point of having Brecht
halflings so to speak? ... yeah it`s a good idea - I rather like it (for
now).

.... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
more probable in Cerilia).

Certainly you could have an elf (race) growing up within a human culture
(say Masetian - on the Isle of the Serpent). Of course this is a
full-elf in this example -- without any contact with his own race - how
much of his racial characteristics would you expect the full elf to
display?

Now I wouldn`t expect complete integration - but perhaps not complete
elf abilities either - at least not learned ones. So now substitute a
half-elf into the same situation, quarter elf etc and how far should we
go? Gary`s mechanics say officially 50%, but unofficially he supports
less. I must admit I`m tempted to go with `if either of your parents
were regarded as elves then you also may be regarded as an elf`. Ditto
for human cultures or whatever, but essentially a creature is seen as
one race or the other (mechanically). Although, from a role-playing
perspective of course such a position is relative, that is, other
characters may interpret their `true race` differently. I must admit
that Cerilian elves are fairly easy, being that all half-elves are
treated as full elves in elven society and as elves in human society as
well.


Should a human raised in elven/dwarven/halfling society have a different
set of background feats to choose from? Absolutely. Those feats should be
different from things that are at the racial "template" level, though. It
wouldn`t be terribly difficult to pick out a few of the racial
characteristics of elves and turn them into background feats for a human
raised by them. Longsword and bow proficiency, for instance, could be a
racial feat. Bonuses to Listen, Search and Spot checks might as well. (I
combine Listen and Spot into one skill, personally, so a +2 on two
different skills works nicely.) Recent threads have suggested the use of
feats to gain additional favored classes, so that could be a background
feat too. Things like actual ability score bonuses/penalties, immunity to
certain spells and, of course, immortality would be best as part of the
racial template.

As for a Brecht-Khinasi (or any other cross) character, I think they should
have access to whatever background feats they predominately were raised in,
since those kinds of things are the product of nurture not nature. If a
player decided that he wanted his PC to have a background in both
cultures--his parents got joint custody or something ;)--then I`d roll his
choice of optional background feats randomly from a list for each.

As for exactly what comprises a half-elf in 3e, I can`t cite chapter and
page number on this off the top of my head, but I recall some pre-3e source
suggesting that anything between 50% and 99% elven was considered
half-elf. An elf has to be 100% elven. More than 50% human blood makes
someone a human. Personally, I think this is a kind of goofy way to go,
and would prefer something more along the lines that anyone whose heritage
is 25% to 75% elven is a half-elf, and anything over 75% heritage makes
them an elf or human. In another campaign I had "elf-touched humans," 1/4,
1/2, 3/4 and "human-touched elves" with different stats for each but that
was a whole other deal and "half-elves" in that campaign were pretty close
to standard 3e elves.

While part of my discourse focused on the `what is`, I also raised the
question of them being entitled to a separate race. It`s interesting
that in all the discussion so generated there`s been no real support for
a separate race for half-XXX as a RACE apart.

Mechanics aside for a moment, because mechanics should only be
introduced to solve a particular problem - not used to explain
themselves (an apriori is proof of nothing). The question is not `how`
should we do it, but one of `why` should we do it?


Gary

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[geeman]

At 12:15 PM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>.... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
>separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
>quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
>society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
>more probable in Cerilia).

I didn`t describe half-elves in particular, but I think you could use the
same "race" and "culture" concepts. Half-elves would remain a separate
"race" because they have some of the features of elves that would not
necessarily fall under culture; immunity to sleep and charm, +2 racial
bonus to saves vs. enchantment, being considered elven for the purpose of
elven magical items, low-light vision and (arguably) their +1 bonus to
Listen, Search and Spot are all race (template) issues. Half-elves (and
all characters IMO, but half-elves in particular) should get some sort of
background feat in addition to that. That feat could be based on either
the human or elven culture they grew up in.

>Certainly you could have an elf (race) growing up within a human culture
>(say Masetian - on the Isle of the Serpent). Of course this is a
>full-elf in this example -- without any contact with his own race - how
>much of his racial characteristics would you expect the full elf to
>display?

For such a character the elven racial characteristic that I`d get rid of
would be their automatic longsword or rapier/bow proficiency, and in place
of that I`d give them an additional feat (just like the human extra feat)
that they could spend on a background feat based on the human culture they
were raised in.

>Now I wouldn`t expect complete integration - but perhaps not complete elf
>abilities either - at least not learned ones. So now substitute a half-elf
>into the same situation, quarter elf etc and how far should we go? Gary`s
>mechanics say officially 50%, but unofficially he supports less.

If I change my last name to Gygax can we make it an official change?

Half-elves get a little short changed IMO. They get some slightly toned
down elven abilities, but the only human trait they get is favored class:
any. Give them an additional feat at 1st level and let them pick it from
either a list of background feats available to humans of the culture in
which they are reared, or a list made up of the background feat-like racial
characteristics of elves; their longsword/bow proficiency, an additional
favored class (wizard), or an additional +1 to their Listen, Search, Spot
checks.

>While part of my discourse focused on the `what is`, I also raised the
>question of them being entitled to a separate race. It`s interesting that
>in all the discussion so generated there`s been no real support for a
>separate race for half-XXX as a RACE apart.
>
>Mechanics aside for a moment, because mechanics should only be introduced
>to solve a particular problem - not used to explain themselves (an apriori
>is proof of nothing). The question is not `how` should we do it, but one
>of `why` should we do it?

Maybe I`m not understanding what you mean by a race apart. Is there some
aspect of it other than the template of racial characteristics you`re
trying to get at?

The only reason I can come up with for having half-XXX character use a
different racial template would be so that you could take some of the
traits from each of their parents` templates and combine them into a third
template. Half-elves might not be the clearest example since humans and
elves are relatively close, but if we look at a more extreme example like
half-ogres it seems logical that they should have a template that is
somewhere between the ogre and the human templates to reflect their mixed
parentage. If an ogre template is +8 to strength and +4 to constitution, a
half-ogre could be +4 and +2. It puts the "half" into the half-ogre....

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 9:15 PM


> .... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
> separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
> quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
> society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
> more probable in Cerilia).

Its neither a seperate race or a seperate culture. It is a template
designed to combine two races. Culture is not the only question at work
here. A half-elf raised in human society may favor their human side, but
they still have elven perceptive qualities. Therefore they don`t experience
human culture the same way as humans do, even though the objective culture
may be the same for both. Certain perceptions of the sidhe blood are
keener, hence the +2 save bonus vs enchantments. There is the low light
vision. The keen sense of hearing and eyesight, leading to bonuses to the
relevant Listen, Spot, and Search checks. The physical connection to the
sidhe nature allowing use of magical items designed for elves. There is the
longer life-span, leading to different perceptions of time in every occasion
in which time might be balanced against other values.

So half-elves will have different perceptions of the same objective data as
humans will.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Peter Lubke]

On Sun, 2002-09-22 at 13:12, Gary wrote:

At 12:15 PM 9/22/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>.... but it doesn`t speak to the issue of whether a half-elf should be a
>separate race (or even a separate culture) - except to support my
>quasi-meandering musing that a half-breed elf brought up in human
>society would behave as a human and vice versa (the latter being far
>more probable in Cerilia).

I didn`t describe half-elves in particular, but I think you could use the
same "race" and "culture" concepts. Half-elves would remain a separate
"race" because they have some of the features of elves that would not
necessarily fall under culture; immunity to sleep and charm, +2 racial
bonus to saves vs. enchantment, being considered elven for the purpose of
elven magical items, low-light vision and (arguably) their +1 bonus to

Cart before the horse. "They must be a separate race because we have a
rule saying they are" - why can`t they be elves? -- I find this a very
poor argument, that they must be a separate race because they have
separate racial tendencies. While I can see some reason for giving them
elven characteristics - I see very little reason at all for giving them
a modified set and calling them a separate "race" and even less (ie
none) for being a separate "culture".

Listen, Search and Spot are all race (template) issues. Half-elves (and
all characters IMO, but half-elves in particular) should get some sort of
background feat in addition to that. That feat could be based on either
the human or elven culture they grew up in.

>Certainly you could have an elf (race) growing up within a human culture
>(say Masetian - on the Isle of the Serpent). Of course this is a
>full-elf in this example -- without any contact with his own race - how
>much of his racial characteristics would you expect the full elf to
>display?

For such a character the elven racial characteristic that I`d get rid of
would be their automatic longsword or rapier/bow proficiency, and in place
of that I`d give them an additional feat (just like the human extra feat)
that they could spend on a background feat based on the human culture they
were raised in.

You are focusing on mechanics of `what`. My question is `why`. Why have
(mechanics for) half-elves at all?


>Now I wouldn`t expect complete integration - but perhaps not complete elf
>abilities either - at least not learned ones. So now substitute a half-elf
>into the same situation, quarter elf etc and how far should we go? Gary`s
>mechanics say officially 50%, but unofficially he supports less.

If I change my last name to Gygax can we make it an official change?

The decision to accept all mutterings from Gygax as canon by Dragon and
the original D&D group was tainted the minute they expected a monthly
column ("From the Sorcerors Scroll"). If in ten years a majority of
players thinks it`s a good change - then we`ll make it official. ;-)
[just kiddin` ya]

But seriously - how far is too far? You say a half-elf is defined by the
template (Snort!). Bosh and nonsense. The template should define the
half-elf not the other way around. But no template for something that
doesn`t exist - what is a half-elf?

Put aside the templates, they are blinding you to the question. You
don`t need a template for something that doesn`t exist - do you have a
template for a 1/32 elf 5/32 dwarf 7/16 gnome 3/8 human? Do you NEED
such a template? But I don`t want a template - I want to hear why there
should be the concept of the half-elf, why this should get special
treatment in mechanics.

Assuming (and I do) that the union of elf and human can bring issue -
what (really) would it be? If there`s no genetic explanation (magic,
miracle, strange elven reproduction ability, whatever), then the child
is as (or more) likely to be wholly human or wholly elf as any other
result. If in fact, there is a genetic explanation (far less likely,
most especially in Cerilia), then genetics is never exactly 50-50, and
the child will always favor one parent - which coupled with upbringing
sees an almost wholly human or (far more likely) wholly elf child after
all.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:05 AM


> You say a half-elf is defined by the template (Snort!). Bosh
> and nonsense. The template should define the half-elf not
> the other way around.

In both the sentence you criticize and the sentence you state yourself, the
template is the subject and the half-elf is the object being defined. The
only thing you did was change the passive voice to the active voice. There
has been no change of meaning, only a change of emphisis.

half-elf is defined by template (apparently a bad thing)
template defines half-elf (apprently a good thing)

dog is washed by children (no doubt a bad thing)
children wash dog (no doubt a good thing)

Peter, why is there a mule entry in the monster manual (p.199)? After all,
you argue that the child of a mixed kind should either be like the mother or
the father. So shouldn`t we just need entries for donkey (p. 196) and horse
(p. 197)? Why this persistant notion that hybrids cannot occupy some
intermediate place between
both parents? When a sufficient sample of genetic traits is considered,
both genotype and phenotype do actually better resemble a 50-50 split than
the all or nothing split you propose.

I can understand that you don`t want to bother with a half-elf and just rule
them as one or the other. Fine. Gary apparently doesn`t distinguish
between aural and visual sensations in his campaign, so these things can be
done. But why the persistant argument that those of us who retain them are
clinging to Gygax or are just irrational? This strikes me a perfect case of
YMMV.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 01:05 AM 9/23/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I didn`t describe half-elves in particular, but I think you could use the
> same "race" and "culture" concepts. Half-elves would remain a separate
> "race" because they have some of the features of elves that would not
> necessarily fall under culture; immunity to sleep and charm, +2 racial
> bonus to saves vs. enchantment, being considered elven for the purpose of
> elven magical items, low-light vision and (arguably) their +1 bonus to
>
>Cart before the horse. "They must be a separate race because we have a
>rule saying they are" - why can`t they be elves? -- I find this a very
>poor argument, that they must be a separate race because they have
>separate racial tendencies.

That`s a poor argument? If they have separate racial tendencies then it
seems to follow that they must have a different racial stats reflected by a
separate template.

Anyway, as for The Rules... I don`t think that`s really influencing my
thinking much nor was that what I was suggesting. If there`s a reason to
ignore a game mechanic I`ll throw it out before you can say
"tweak." There`s no reason why you couldn`t throw out the half-elf
template and make all characters of mixed heritage either elves or humans
if that`s what you want. The differences between those two templates, in
my opinion, are enough that one could pick and choose features of each to
create a third when describing characters of mixed heritage. I don`t buy
your argument (below) that because a particular offspring will favor one
parent over the other that means the concept of a template using features
from each parent`s template should be tossed out.

>While I can see some reason for giving them elven characteristics - I see
>very little reason at all for giving them a modified set and calling them
>a separate "race" and even less (ie none) for being a separate "culture".

My reasoning is that elves and humans have demonstrably different racial
templates. If you`re going to posit a character with such mixed heritage
you could take some features of one template and some from the other to
reflect those changes, to reflect that mixed heritage. The choices would
seem to me to be:

1. Assign the template of one or the other parent to a half-elf.
2. Mix the human and elven templates.

If I understand what you`re saying, you`re not seeing a reason to go with
option #2 because a half-elf will, genetically, favor one or the other
parent. I think that`s true, though I think the concept is mis-applied to
this particular issue for two reasons. First, because "parental favoring"
isn`t what templates are designed to reflect. There`s more variation
between characters within particular templates than there is between the +0
ECL templates, so if you`re trying to reflect favoring one parent over the
other you`d probably be better off going straight to their ability scores
rather than their racial template. Second, I don`t personally agree that
racial templates are as genetically mandated as you would seem to
indicate. (More on that below.)

>>For such a character the elven racial characteristic that I`d get rid of
>>would be their automatic longsword or rapier/bow proficiency, and in
>>place of that I`d give them an additional feat (just like the human extra
>>feat) that they could spend on a background feat based on the human
>>culture they were raised in.
>
>You are focusing on mechanics of `what`. My question is `why`. Why have
>(mechanics for) half-elves at all?

I think the "what" and the "why" go hand in hand here. Why should we have
a separate template for half-elves? Because of what the templates for
elves and humans are. The template for elves has features A, B, C and
D. The template for humans has features 1, 2, 3 and 4. Therefore, a
template for a character who represents a mix of those two racial templates
can have features A, 2, B and 4.

>But seriously - how far is too far? You say a half-elf is defined by the
>template (Snort!). Bosh and nonsense. The template should define the
>half-elf not the other way around.

I don`t think that concept is snort-worthy bosh.... Off-spring often favor
one parent or another, but the assumption that the relatively minor
tendency to favor one parent rises to the level of a dominant racial
template? That doesn`t necessarily follow.

>But no template for something that doesn`t exist - what is a half-elf?
>
>Put aside the templates, they are blinding you to the question. You
>don`t need a template for something that doesn`t exist - do you have a
>template for a 1/32 elf 5/32 dwarf 7/16 gnome 3/8 human? Do you NEED
>such a template? But I don`t want a template - I want to hear why there
>should be the concept of the half-elf, why this should get special
>treatment in mechanics.

Well, you raised the issue of 1/32 elf, etc. so I think I need to
comment. No, you don`t need templates for every possible permutation of
racial heritage. If for no other reason than because there aren`t enough
stats in the templates to reflect more than just a couple of
permutations. The existence of a middle step between the human template
and the elf template, however, is reasonable. (I`ll get to the "why" below.)

>If there`s no genetic explanation (magic, miracle, strange elven
>reproduction ability, whatever), then the child is as (or more) likely to
>be wholly human or wholly elf as any other result. If in fact, there is a
>genetic explanation (far less likely, most especially in Cerilia), then
>genetics is never exactly 50-50, and the child will always favor one
>parent - which coupled with upbringing sees an almost wholly human or (far
>more likely) wholly elf child after all.

The standard in fantasy is that certain races can mix in a way that
parallels genetics. Part of that standard is that (usually) such offspring
represent a mix of their parental characteristics, but the fantasy standard
aside, I don`t think a "realistic" genetic justification for a half-elf
would favor one parent over the other to the degree that you`re
suggesting. No, genetics is never exactly 50-50 but, similarly, it is
never 100-0, and it`s a mistake to think that because genetics isn`t an
exact 50-50 split that offspring will, therefore, automatically be
identical (in the template sense) to one or the other parent. Even if the
ratio is 75/25 that does not mean one should do away with the concept of a
half-elf entirely. The racial templates are themselves very broadly
defined, and the kinds of "parental favoring" you`re talking about are
probably better described as non-stat characteristics (hair, eyes color,
shape of the ear) or by going to the actual stats/ability scores of the
parent and using them for the basis of character generation.

Using your assumption that one parent`s influence will dominate, however,
let me as you this: Which one? Do you want to make half-elves humans or
elves? Unless your thinking that there`s some sort of dominant gene
responsible for Cerilian elven immortality, their ability score changes,
racial bonus to Listen, Spot, etc. then I think you need to go with a
hybrid mix of the two templates. I suppose if you really wanted to you
could come up with a fairly simple table of racial traits from each
template and roll randomly on it to determine specific genetic traits
getting passed on. That way you could wind up with half-elves who favored
one parent over the other randomly in a similar fashion to the roulette
wheel of actual mating. I still wouldn`t go that direction myself because
I think the half-elf template is broad enough with a few general tweaks
regarding background rather than race.

Gary

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