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  1. #21
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    On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 17:14, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

    Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-24 08.55:

    > A "paladin" as in a non-priest who embodies virtues espoused by the god (and
    > that aren`t covered by priesthood) is not such a stretch, however. Rangers as
    > paladins of Erik, for instance, has already been mentioned, but couldn`t
    > rogues occupy a similar role in Sera`s or Eloele`s worship, bards in Laerme`s?

    There is a set of "champion" prestige classes for the Forgotten Realms that
    are just this - but their powers are a lot less spectacular than those of
    the paladin.


    seems fair to me.

    Would you keep paladin as a base class then? or not ?


    /Carl

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  2. #22
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    On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 16:55, Gary wrote:

    At 02:43 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

    >Paladin and Holy Warrior are a way of life from the beginning. A paladin
    >is one kind of holy warrior. My issue with the paladin is that paladins
    >are better warriors in some cases that warriors themselves. If paladin
    >is to be a base class then it must be balanced against warrior - never
    >quite being as good in general as a warrior, but gaining great advantage
    >against evil in the service of their god as carried out in a lawful-good
    >manner. (apologies to Cuiraecen`s paladins)
    >
    >As such they should not be a Prestige Class.

    I`m not following your logic.

    Key phrase -- "if paladin is to be a base class"

    The paladin class is superior to standard
    warriors in some cases. The paladin _should_
    be so balanced, or slightly
    less powerful than a standard warrior.

    Should but usually isn`t. While I don`t play or DM 3e, my paladins
    aren`t full 2e either. They have only priest progression in the combat
    arena, but gain 1d10 hit points per level and are unrestricted in choice
    of weapons and armor. They cannot specialize in any weapon, but do gain
    spells starting at 4th level. As such their standard combat abilities
    lie between warrior and priest. Against evil however, they are more
    effective than a standard warrior.

    Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that
    they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to
    adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo
    the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be
    the same.

    One of the funnest (is that a word? - my spell checker thinks so)
    sessions I`ve ever DM`ed was the "the Great Paladin Hunt". I just loved
    the hang-gliding wight brothers, Orbille and Wilburr. All the paladins
    had a good time too. (all PC`s were paladins, and they weren`t the
    hunters - they were the huntees)


    Doesn`t it follow that the paladin
    should be a prestige class since prestige classes are generally ratcheted
    up power-wise from standard classes?

    >On the concept of Holy Warrior generally: I do not think that every god
    >needs a holy warrior `class`. I do not see that Ruornil`s war against
    >Shadow is sufficient to justify paladin status for warriors of that
    >faith.

    No? That one`s one of my favorites.... Doing battle with the forces of
    darkness, let alone the undead forces of the SW? That`s right out of the
    paladin credo. Nesirie seems less apt to have her own paladins than
    Rournil to me.

    >Priests of some gods may grant favors (eg spell tattoos) or teach
    >abilities to their temple warriors, but generally such things can be
    >handled quite adequately without recourse to a class apart.

    I`ll grant you that not every god needs "paladins" per se. One of the
    issues here, I think, is that folks trip over the term "paladin" a
    bit. They can`t see non-standard paladins because the term paladin has
    become so stereotyped into the lawful good warrior/knightly virtue mold
    that any variation seems contradictory. Holy warriors is also similarly
    wrapped up in a sort of fanatic fighter concept. A "paladin" as in a
    non-priest who embodies virtues espoused by the god (and that aren`t
    covered by priesthood) is not such a stretch, however. Rangers as paladins
    of Erik, for instance, has already been mentioned, but couldn`t rogues
    occupy a similar role in Sera`s or Eloele`s worship, bards in
    Laerme`s? These "paladins" need not be straight rangers, rogues or bards,
    but could have hybrid powers on a similar power level as the paladin (and
    made prestige classes.) The Dwarven Defender PrC could be interpreted as a
    sort of paladin of Moradin.

    Gary

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  3. #23
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Of course if they are to be the super-warrior that the paladins of Cuiraecen are: then they should be a prestige class!
    Please tell me, why exactly a paladin of Cuiraécen is so overpowered in your opinion? All what is different is his CG alignment and that he can multiclass freely as a fighter. And?

    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Would you keep paladin as a base class then? or not ?
    Naturally yes!!!!

    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be the same.
    Thank you! And you're right, it wouldn't be the same! Yes, a paladin is a lot more effective against evil, but this IS his destiny, or not? If a paladin stops acting against evil, he stops to BE a paladin...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  4. #24
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    On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 22:26, Ariadne wrote:

    This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=955

    Ariadne wrote:
    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Of course if they are to be the super-warrior that the paladins of Cuiraecen are: then they should be a prestige class!
    Please tell me, why exactly a paladin of Cuiraécen is so overpowered in your opinion? All what is different is his CG alignment and that he can multiclass freely as a fighter. And?

    Okay .. as a base class ... what does a warrior/fighter have that a
    paladin of Cuiraecen does not?
    ... now reverse the question - what does a paladin of Cuiraecen have
    that a warrior does not?

    Consider your answer from the perspective that BOTH are followers of
    Cuiraecen and both are dedicated to the tenets of CG, also that it is
    unlikely for any character to wear more than one suit of magical armor,
    or to have more than 4 magic weapons, or to have in total more than 10
    magic items -- alignment and dedication are a choice, freely taken and
    not forced, and therefore not restrictive in any way.


    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Would you keep paladin as a base class then? or not ?
    Naturally yes!!!!

    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be the same.
    Thank you! And you`re right, it wouldn`t be the same! Yes, a paladin is a lot more effective against evil, but this IS his destiny, or not? If a paladin stops acting against evil, he stops to BE a paladin...

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  5. #25
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    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-24 16.05:

    > alignment and dedication are a choice, freely taken and
    > not forced, and therefore not restrictive in any way.

    The issue is not if you are choosing to play an alignment - the issue is if
    you are accepting penalties for violating that alignment. That is a real
    restriction.

    /Carl

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  6. #26
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    On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 00:18, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-24 16.05:

    > alignment and dedication are a choice, freely taken and
    > not forced, and therefore not restrictive in any way.

    The issue is not if you are choosing to play an alignment - the issue is if
    you are accepting penalties for violating that alignment. That is a real
    restriction.

    why would a real paladin violate his alignment?

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  7. #27
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Ariadne writes:

    > Thank you! And you`re right, it wouldn`t be the same! Yes, a
    > paladin is a lot more effective against evil, but this IS his
    > destiny, or not? If a paladin stops acting against evil, he
    > stops to BE a paladin...

    Yeah, see? That`s just what I mean. The term "paladin" is so wrapped up in
    a particular description that it just confuses matters to describe paladins
    of other alignments or dieties. I`m pretty sure that if one just wrote up a
    system of paladin-like character classes for any god it wouldn`t garner
    nearly the objections that just describing such classes as "paladins of X"
    does.

    Gary

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  8. #28
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    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-24 18.15:

    > why would a real paladin violate his alignment?
    >

    Read any knightly romance or do some roleplaying, and you will find plenty
    of temptations for paladins. Some reasons might be

    * A temptation to take personal revenge rather than fight the good fight

    * Conflicting loyalties - friends, family, liege, god, love, all with their
    own demands. What if a good-aligned fellow fighter against evil commits a
    crime?

    * Harsh descisions - whichever way you go, someone suffers

    * Unpopular orders - a superior can order you to do most anything. Need not
    be an evil act - merely a distasteful one. Disobeying a legitimate authority
    is a chaotic trait, still a no-no

    * Expediency - some things are easier if you have flexible ethics. Why not
    simply kill the villain, rather than try your outmost to bring him to
    justice?

    * Honor - having either too much peronal honor, or not upholding your honor

    * Indescision. War rages between two good nations. Which way should the
    paladin turn?

    * Personality development. Sometimes, a charcter`s personality grows in
    unexpected directions. Lawful Good might no longer feel like the best
    alignment for expressing a growing personality. Unlike other characters, a
    paladin loses his power if he changes in this way.

    * Character development - A painful choice between personal power (magic
    items and such) and doing the right thing

    *Over-zealousness. Becoming merciless in pursuit of the law. Bigotry.

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  9. #29
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    On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
    > Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that
    > they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to
    > adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo
    > the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be
    > the same.

    Paladins started out as a base class. So did assassins, which are now a
    prestige class. I`ve never seen anyone rail against that as much as the
    paladin fans do about their personal favorite.

    Probably the only reason 3e kept them that way was because of the
    anticipated complaining fans.
    --
    Communication is possible only between equals.
    Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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  10. #30
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    daniel mcsorley writes:

    > Probably the only reason 3e kept them that way was because of the
    > anticipated complaining fans.

    I agree. As further evidence there are several aspects of the paladin
    character class that are un-3e like. Their special "off the path"
    limitation when it comes to multi-classing, the way paladins can lose their
    class abilities for behavior, but gain them back again (in a manner of
    speaking) through a prestige class. There`s some interesting engineering
    going on with that class.

    When it comes to making paladins (or similar classes for other gods) a
    prestige class, I think the argument is essentially twofold.

    1. There`s the balance issue. The paladin as a character class is probably
    the strongest without delving into the ghoulish nightmare that is the D&D
    magic system. The paladin`s class abilities tend to increase per level
    where other classes gain a whole new ability. The distinction may seem
    unimportant, but since the paladin as a class only gets a few class
    abilities it looks like it is more or less balanced with other classes.
    Since those class abilities are constantly improving, however, the paladin
    gets what is in effect two or three class abilities per level. Prestige
    classes, however, are more likely to break this particular rule, and
    generally represent a powering up process anyway so making the paladin a
    prestige class would fit more in line with certain existing class paradigms.

    2. There`s the role-playing issue. It`s absolutely possible for a character
    to begin life as some sort of divinely inspired holy roller and all the
    aspects of the champion of a particular deity. Esthicially, however, some
    folks (myself included) think it might be more logical for a character to
    prove himself BEFORE joining the favored ranks of holy warriors such
    paladins. You could definitely use a character class that was a religious
    or otherwise idealistic warrior type, but going straight into the powers and
    fraternity of paladins is a step that should IMO require some sort of
    in-game effort rather than assuming that`s part of the background of a PC.

    Gary

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