Paladins of Cuiraecen (Was Bloodline Influence)

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 17:14, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-24 08.55:

> A "paladin" as in a non-priest who embodies virtues espoused by the god (and
> that aren`t covered by priesthood) is not such a stretch, however. Rangers as
> paladins of Erik, for instance, has already been mentioned, but couldn`t
> rogues occupy a similar role in Sera`s or Eloele`s worship, bards in Laerme`s?

There is a set of "champion" prestige classes for the Forgotten Realms that
are just this - but their powers are a lot less spectacular than those of
the paladin.


seems fair to me.

Would you keep paladin as a base class then? or not ?


/Carl

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 16:55, Gary wrote:

At 02:43 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Paladin and Holy Warrior are a way of life from the beginning. A paladin
>is one kind of holy warrior. My issue with the paladin is that paladins
>are better warriors in some cases that warriors themselves. If paladin
>is to be a base class then it must be balanced against warrior - never
>quite being as good in general as a warrior, but gaining great advantage
>against evil in the service of their god as carried out in a lawful-good
>manner. (apologies to Cuiraecen`s paladins)
>
>As such they should not be a Prestige Class.

I`m not following your logic.

Key phrase -- "if paladin is to be a base class"

The paladin class is superior to standard
warriors in some cases. The paladin _should_
be so balanced, or slightly
less powerful than a standard warrior.

Should but usually isn`t. While I don`t play or DM 3e, my paladins
aren`t full 2e either. They have only priest progression in the combat
arena, but gain 1d10 hit points per level and are unrestricted in choice
of weapons and armor. They cannot specialize in any weapon, but do gain
spells starting at 4th level. As such their standard combat abilities
lie between warrior and priest. Against evil however, they are more
effective than a standard warrior.

Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that
they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to
adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo
the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be
the same.

One of the funnest (is that a word? - my spell checker thinks so)
sessions I`ve ever DM`ed was the "the Great Paladin Hunt". I just loved
the hang-gliding wight brothers, Orbille and Wilburr. All the paladins
had a good time too. (all PC`s were paladins, and they weren`t the
hunters - they were the huntees)


Doesn`t it follow that the paladin
should be a prestige class since prestige classes are generally ratcheted
up power-wise from standard classes?

>On the concept of Holy Warrior generally: I do not think that every god
>needs a holy warrior `class`. I do not see that Ruornil`s war against
>Shadow is sufficient to justify paladin status for warriors of that
>faith.

No? That one`s one of my favorites.... Doing battle with the forces of
darkness, let alone the undead forces of the SW? That`s right out of the
paladin credo. Nesirie seems less apt to have her own paladins than
Rournil to me.

>Priests of some gods may grant favors (eg spell tattoos) or teach
>abilities to their temple warriors, but generally such things can be
>handled quite adequately without recourse to a class apart.

I`ll grant you that not every god needs "paladins" per se. One of the
issues here, I think, is that folks trip over the term "paladin" a
bit. They can`t see non-standard paladins because the term paladin has
become so stereotyped into the lawful good warrior/knightly virtue mold
that any variation seems contradictory. Holy warriors is also similarly
wrapped up in a sort of fanatic fighter concept. A "paladin" as in a
non-priest who embodies virtues espoused by the god (and that aren`t
covered by priesthood) is not such a stretch, however. Rangers as paladins
of Erik, for instance, has already been mentioned, but couldn`t rogues
occupy a similar role in Sera`s or Eloele`s worship, bards in
Laerme`s? These "paladins" need not be straight rangers, rogues or bards,
but could have hybrid powers on a similar power level as the paladin (and
made prestige classes.) The Dwarven Defender PrC could be interpreted as a
sort of paladin of Moradin.

Gary

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[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Of course if they are to be the super-warrior that the paladins of Cuiraecen are: then they should be a prestige class!

Please tell me, why exactly a paladin of Cuiraécen is so overpowered in your opinion? All what is different is his CG alignment and that he can multiclass freely as a fighter. And?

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Would you keep paladin as a base class then? or not ?

Naturally yes!!!!

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be the same.

Thank you! And you're right, it wouldn't be the same! Yes, a paladin is a lot more effective against evil, but this IS his destiny, or not? If a paladin stops acting against evil, he stops to BE a paladin...

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2002-09-24 at 22:26, Ariadne wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=955

Ariadne wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Of course if they are to be the super-warrior that the paladins of Cuiraecen are: then they should be a prestige class!

Please tell me, why exactly a paladin of Cuiraécen is so overpowered in your opinion? All what is different is his CG alignment and that he can multiclass freely as a fighter. And?

Okay .. as a base class ... what does a warrior/fighter have that a
paladin of Cuiraecen does not?
... now reverse the question - what does a paladin of Cuiraecen have
that a warrior does not?

Consider your answer from the perspective that BOTH are followers of
Cuiraecen and both are dedicated to the tenets of CG, also that it is
unlikely for any character to wear more than one suit of magical armor,
or to have more than 4 magic weapons, or to have in total more than 10
magic items -- alignment and dedication are a choice, freely taken and
not forced, and therefore not restrictive in any way.

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Would you keep paladin as a base class then? or not ?

Naturally yes!!!!

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be the same.

Thank you! And you`re right, it wouldn`t be the same! Yes, a paladin is a lot more effective against evil, but this IS his destiny, or not? If a paladin stops acting against evil, he stops to BE a paladin...

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[Starfox]

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-24 16.05:

> alignment and dedication are a choice, freely taken and
> not forced, and therefore not restrictive in any way.

The issue is not if you are choosing to play an alignment - the issue is if
you are accepting penalties for violating that alignment. That is a real
restriction.

/Carl

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-09-25 at 00:18, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-24 16.05:

> alignment and dedication are a choice, freely taken and
> not forced, and therefore not restrictive in any way.

The issue is not if you are choosing to play an alignment - the issue is if
you are accepting penalties for violating that alignment. That is a real
restriction.

why would a real paladin violate his alignment?

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[geeman]

Ariadne writes:

> Thank you! And you`re right, it wouldn`t be the same! Yes, a
> paladin is a lot more effective against evil, but this IS his
> destiny, or not? If a paladin stops acting against evil, he
> stops to BE a paladin...

Yeah, see? That`s just what I mean. The term "paladin" is so wrapped up in
a particular description that it just confuses matters to describe paladins
of other alignments or dieties. I`m pretty sure that if one just wrote up a
system of paladin-like character classes for any god it wouldn`t garner
nearly the objections that just describing such classes as "paladins of X"
does.

Gary

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[Starfox]

Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-09-24 18.15:

> why would a real paladin violate his alignment?
>

Read any knightly romance or do some roleplaying, and you will find plenty
of temptations for paladins. Some reasons might be

* A temptation to take personal revenge rather than fight the good fight

* Conflicting loyalties - friends, family, liege, god, love, all with their
own demands. What if a good-aligned fellow fighter against evil commits a
crime?

* Harsh descisions - whichever way you go, someone suffers

* Unpopular orders - a superior can order you to do most anything. Need not
be an evil act - merely a distasteful one. Disobeying a legitimate authority
is a chaotic trait, still a no-no

* Expediency - some things are easier if you have flexible ethics. Why not
simply kill the villain, rather than try your outmost to bring him to
justice?

* Honor - having either too much peronal honor, or not upholding your honor

* Indescision. War rages between two good nations. Which way should the
paladin turn?

* Personality development. Sometimes, a charcter`s personality grows in
unexpected directions. Lawful Good might no longer feel like the best
alignment for expressing a growing personality. Unlike other characters, a
paladin loses his power if he changes in this way.

* Character development - A painful choice between personal power (magic
items and such) and doing the right thing

*Over-zealousness. Becoming merciless in pursuit of the law. Bigotry.

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[Birthright-L]

On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
> Personally, I like paladins as a base class and agree with Ariadne that
> they have a long and proud history as such. I think they are a pain to
> adventure with, but denying the early levels the opportunity to undergo
> the pain of having a paladin in the party ... well it just wouldn`t be
> the same.

Paladins started out as a base class. So did assassins, which are now a
prestige class. I`ve never seen anyone rail against that as much as the
paladin fans do about their personal favorite.

Probably the only reason 3e kept them that way was because of the
anticipated complaining fans.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[geeman]

daniel mcsorley writes:

> Probably the only reason 3e kept them that way was because of the
> anticipated complaining fans.

I agree. As further evidence there are several aspects of the paladin
character class that are un-3e like. Their special "off the path"
limitation when it comes to multi-classing, the way paladins can lose their
class abilities for behavior, but gain them back again (in a manner of
speaking) through a prestige class. There`s some interesting engineering
going on with that class.

When it comes to making paladins (or similar classes for other gods) a
prestige class, I think the argument is essentially twofold.

1. There`s the balance issue. The paladin as a character class is probably
the strongest without delving into the ghoulish nightmare that is the D&D
magic system. The paladin`s class abilities tend to increase per level
where other classes gain a whole new ability. The distinction may seem
unimportant, but since the paladin as a class only gets a few class
abilities it looks like it is more or less balanced with other classes.
Since those class abilities are constantly improving, however, the paladin
gets what is in effect two or three class abilities per level. Prestige
classes, however, are more likely to break this particular rule, and
generally represent a powering up process anyway so making the paladin a
prestige class would fit more in line with certain existing class paradigms.

2. There`s the role-playing issue. It`s absolutely possible for a character
to begin life as some sort of divinely inspired holy roller and all the
aspects of the champion of a particular deity. Esthicially, however, some
folks (myself included) think it might be more logical for a character to
prove himself BEFORE joining the favored ranks of holy warriors such
paladins. You could definitely use a character class that was a religious
or otherwise idealistic warrior type, but going straight into the powers and
fraternity of paladins is a step that should IMO require some sort of
in-game effort rather than assuming that`s part of the background of a PC.

Gary

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