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  1. #11
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    Orginally posted by Birthright-L
    How are paladins of Cuiraecen dealt with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    has paladins of a CG deity
    Thats not true. in the d&d game it was always possible that paladins in special campaign worlds could have an alignment different from lg. this is also the case in the 3. edition, for example in the Forgotten Realms.

    question is, if this rule is a good one.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  2. #12
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    On Sat, 2002-09-21 at 06:16, Gary wrote:

    At 11:39 AM 9/20/2002 -0700, William Bolitho wrote:

    >What exactly is a cavalier-paladin? Is that the 2E kit that I glossed over
    >once or twice because it seemed a bit... unlikely for any of my
    >characters? Or is that a 1E reference?

    I believe Peter`s referencing the combo class from 1e in Unearthed
    Arcana. There was later a kit as well, but UA made the paladin a sub-class
    of the cavalier (also presented in UA) and ratcheted up his power by giving
    him all the abilities of the cavalier class (including things like weapons
    of choice that gave additional "to hit" bonuses, the ability to parry
    successful attacks, additional saving throw bonuses, and one or two other
    things) in addition to those standard for 1e paladins. I used it once or
    twice, and using what passed for "balance" in 1e character classes it was
    OK. It just forced paladins into an even more narrow interpretation than
    they had before.

    "Balanced" ? - apart from certain suicidal tendencies ;-} these guys
    were almost unstoppable -- dragon? charge it -- his fear attack cannot
    hurt me, nor his breath weapon, and I`ll strike him dead before he can
    lay a glove (er, nail) on me.

    The kit was nothing like the original cavalier.


    Gary

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  3. #13
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    On Sat, 2002-09-21 at 04:39, William Bolitho wrote:

    Which leads me to ask this question... How are paladins of Cuiraecen
    dealt with in the conversion to 3E? Since those paladins are CG... And that
    doesn`t seem to be in line too much with 3E rules (though another setting
    has paladins of a CG deity).
    -----------

    Hopefully VERY harshly. It`s perhaps the single most unbalanced
    character class since the cavalier-paladin -- no I take that back,
    including the cavalier-paladin.
    ----------

    Um... Lost reference... What exactly is a cavalier-paladin? Is that the 2E
    kit that I glossed over once or twice because it seemed a bit... unlikely
    for any of my characters? Or is that a 1E reference?

    April 1983 (at the height of the 1e madness of adding extra powers to
    everyone except wizards to stop their rampant domination of the original
    campaigns - blackmoor, greyhawk etc - as the wizard characters in such
    had reached high levels - Bigby, Elminster, Mordenkainen etc)

    Cavalier - a new sub-class of fighter of gentle or noble birth (rich
    buggers) following the `code of chivalry` - good alignment - (so
    paladins aren`t a big change), mounted combat, knowledge of horsemanship
    - steeds with bonus hit points, able to parry more effectively than
    fighters, always the finest armor (nothing less than plate armor will
    do) - their ability scores for strength, dexterity, and constitution
    increase with each level gained, their multiple attacks are gained
    earlier, and they get more of them (up to 5x with a crossbow!), at 10th
    level they have 5 (count them 5!) weapons of specialization, can double
    specialize in broadsword, horse mace, scimitar. Eleven cavaliers can
    fire bows while mounted at +3/+3. With a lance (either mounted or not!?)
    they are +1 per level of cavalier to damage (plus charge bonus where
    applicable). Immune to all fear, AND radiate protection from fear in a
    10 foot radius, mind attack spells (or magical phenomena) have a 90%
    chance of never affecting a paladin (better than the elf who is only so
    protected vs sleep and charm), including beguilement, charm, domination,
    hold, hypnosis, magic jar, possession, mind blast(psionic), sleep,
    suggestion etc. THEN they still get a saving throw at +2, (or +4 for a
    cavalier paladin). They can survive up to -13 negative hit points and
    still function - although they cannot attack. They heal more rapidly
    than any other character class. First level hit points could be as high
    as 28! A 3rd level cavalier can vault into the saddle wearing bulky
    armor and have the animal underway in 1 segment (impressive huh?), at 11
    level they can handle of griffon or similar mount as a steed. They
    ALWAYS have retainers from 4th level on who serve for nothing more than
    upkeep and training (as if he can`t afford to actually pay them -
    tight-fisted bastards).
    S15 I10 W10 D15 Co15 Chxx <= Cavalier stats (minimum)
    S15 I10 W13 D15 Co15 Ch17 <= cavalier paladin

    A cavalier-paladin has all the above plus: detect evil, protection from
    evil 10 foot radius, immune to disease, lay on hands, cure disease, save
    at +2 against everything, turn undead, cast spells, a SUPER DOOPER
    warhorse - I mean combined with cavalier this is one nasty mean
    mother-f**ker.

    Oh - you have to be good (say your prayers etc), only have a magical
    suit of armor (how many can one wear anyway?), 6 magical weapons, a
    magical shield, and 4 other magical devices. (yeah right! - 12 magical
    items - pinch me, that`s a `restriction`?), and you have to be `nice` to
    other cavaliers. Paladins don`t attract a body of men - but cavaliers
    attract followers like rangers do.


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  4. #14
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Hey, the paladin of Cuiraécen is one of the best character classes! If I would play a paladin, then ONLY one of Cuiraécen...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #15
    Senior Member marcum uth mather's Avatar
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    so whats to stop paladins of Eric and othere nonsence. in the paladins handbook it says there are only paladins of LG. other aliments have othere kits to make them special

  6. #16
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "marcum uth mather" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 4:23 PM

    > so whats to stop paladins of Eric and othere nonsence. in the
    > paladins handbook it says there are only paladins of LG. other
    > aliments have othere kits to make them special

    According to BR core rules, rangers are paladins of Eric. Why can`t any
    kind of faith have a champion, whether a PrC or a core class? The only
    kind of faith that I would not allow a divine warrior for are faiths that
    don`t have warriors. Eric combats the humanoids, so a divine champion makes
    sense. Ruornil combats the Shadow, so he should get paladins, an idea
    supported on page 30 of the Medoere PS. I think that the paladins of each
    faith might differ in their specific features, but there is no reason they
    should not exist.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #17
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    > According to BR core rules, rangers are paladins of Eric. Why can`t any
    > kind of faith have a champion, whether a PrC or a core class? The only
    > kind of faith that I would not allow a divine warrior for are faiths that
    > don`t have warriors. Eric combats the humanoids, so a divine champion makes
    > sense. Ruornil combats the Shadow, so he should get paladins, an idea
    > supported on page 30 of the Medoere PS. I think that the paladins of each
    > faith might differ in their specific features, but there is no reason they
    > should not exist.

    This is precisely why I also think Paladins and other (un)holy warriors
    should be prestige classes that rely on Fighter and Cleric levels. I`m
    going to start working on this, in fact. IMO, there should be different
    holy warrior prestige classes for each order in the setting. One for
    paladins from Haelyn`s Aegis, an anti-paladin class for the Hand of
    Azrai, etc...

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  8. #18
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    Paladin and Holy Warrior are a way of life from the beginning. A paladin
    is one kind of holy warrior. My issue with the paladin is that paladins
    are better warriors in some cases that warriors themselves. If paladin
    is to be a base class then it must be balanced against warrior - never
    quite being as good in general as a warrior, but gaining great advantage
    against evil in the service of their god as carried out in a lawful-good
    manner. (apologies to Cuiraecen`s paladins)

    As such they should not be a Prestige Class. Of course if they are to be
    the super-warrior that the paladins of Cuiraecen are: then they should
    be a prestige class!

    On the concept of Holy Warrior generally: I do not think that every god
    needs a holy warrior `class`. I do not see that Ruornil`s war against
    Shadow is sufficient to justify paladin status for warriors of that
    faith. Priests of some gods may grant favors (eg spell tattoos) or teach
    abilities to their temple warriors, but generally such things can be
    handled quite adequately without recourse to a class apart.

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  9. #19
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:43 PM 9/24/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

    >Paladin and Holy Warrior are a way of life from the beginning. A paladin
    >is one kind of holy warrior. My issue with the paladin is that paladins
    >are better warriors in some cases that warriors themselves. If paladin
    >is to be a base class then it must be balanced against warrior - never
    >quite being as good in general as a warrior, but gaining great advantage
    >against evil in the service of their god as carried out in a lawful-good
    >manner. (apologies to Cuiraecen`s paladins)
    >
    >As such they should not be a Prestige Class.

    I`m not following your logic. The paladin class is superior to standard
    warriors in some cases. The paladin _should_ be so balanced, or slightly
    less powerful than a standard warrior. Doesn`t it follow that the paladin
    should be a prestige class since prestige classes are generally ratcheted
    up power-wise from standard classes?

    >On the concept of Holy Warrior generally: I do not think that every god
    >needs a holy warrior `class`. I do not see that Ruornil`s war against
    >Shadow is sufficient to justify paladin status for warriors of that
    >faith.

    No? That one`s one of my favorites.... Doing battle with the forces of
    darkness, let alone the undead forces of the SW? That`s right out of the
    paladin credo. Nesirie seems less apt to have her own paladins than
    Rournil to me.

    >Priests of some gods may grant favors (eg spell tattoos) or teach
    >abilities to their temple warriors, but generally such things can be
    >handled quite adequately without recourse to a class apart.

    I`ll grant you that not every god needs "paladins" per se. One of the
    issues here, I think, is that folks trip over the term "paladin" a
    bit. They can`t see non-standard paladins because the term paladin has
    become so stereotyped into the lawful good warrior/knightly virtue mold
    that any variation seems contradictory. Holy warriors is also similarly
    wrapped up in a sort of fanatic fighter concept. A "paladin" as in a
    non-priest who embodies virtues espoused by the god (and that aren`t
    covered by priesthood) is not such a stretch, however. Rangers as paladins
    of Erik, for instance, has already been mentioned, but couldn`t rogues
    occupy a similar role in Sera`s or Eloele`s worship, bards in
    Laerme`s? These "paladins" need not be straight rangers, rogues or bards,
    but could have hybrid powers on a similar power level as the paladin (and
    made prestige classes.) The Dwarven Defender PrC could be interpreted as a
    sort of paladin of Moradin.

    Gary

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  10. #20
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    Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-24 08.55:

    > A "paladin" as in a non-priest who embodies virtues espoused by the god (and
    > that aren`t covered by priesthood) is not such a stretch, however. Rangers as
    > paladins of Erik, for instance, has already been mentioned, but couldn`t
    > rogues occupy a similar role in Sera`s or Eloele`s worship, bards in Laerme`s?

    There is a set of "champion" prestige classes for the Forgotten Realms that
    are just this - but their powers are a lot less spectacular than those of
    the paladin.

    /Carl

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