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  1. #121
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    On Fri, 2002-10-11 at 01:13, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

    On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Carl Cramér wrote:

    > There are many alignment-specific effects in DnD - Protection from
    > Evil, Detect Evil, Holy Word, Dispel Evil - and all permutations of
    > these. It takes quite a rewrite to make all of this work with a
    > different system of alignments.

    Yes, and I dislike them all. =) I think the various Protect/Detect/etc.
    spells are better written with respect to "weirdness", as in Prot/Det/Disp
    Summoned, Animated, or Extraplanar Entities.

    You are entirely correct. That is EXACTLY how they were written. Read
    the 1st Ed DMG. Detect evil will NOT reveal a character whose alignment
    is chaotic evil. It will reveal a vampire or demon.


    > In my Feng Shui games, "Evil" is defined as anything that is
    > spiritually opposed to your own belefis. Thus, both sides in a
    > conflict can detect the other as "evil" if their differences are
    > fundamental enough. Simplifies things a lot.

    I agree that this is how it ought to work if it is done at all.

    I 120% disagree. And for good reason. How opposed would you have to be?

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  2. #122
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    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-10-12 08.30:

    > You are entirely correct. That is EXACTLY how they were written. Read
    > the 1st Ed DMG. Detect evil will NOT reveal a character whose alignment
    > is chaotic evil. It will reveal a vampire or demon.

    That was then. This is now. It was also a change from the first edition PH,
    were a paladin could ruin almost any investigation by simply detectig who
    was the bad guy. And if I remember right, characters started raditating
    evil at lvl 6.

    But your way is really quite easy to implement under 3E - just define a
    minimum strength of evil aura (as per the definition under the Detect Evil
    spell) that is required to detect as evil or for evil-specific powers to
    work. This is a minimal patch. The only problem is that Holy Word (that can
    kill anyone who does not register as good) suddenly becomes a spell with a
    friendly-fire threat.

    My solution is instead to say that a character has to be quite bad to
    actually have an evil alignment. You can do loads of bad things without
    actually having to be evil - normal greed, fear, prejudice and so on does
    not make you evil unless you really act out on it. This gives sort of the
    same end result - lesser bad guys don`t actually have an evil alignment, and
    thus don`t register on these spells.

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  3. #123
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    On Sat, 2002-10-12 at 18:24, Carl Cram=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=r wrote:

    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-10-12 08.30:

    > You are entirely correct. That is EXACTLY how they were written. Read
    > the 1st Ed DMG. Detect evil will NOT reveal a character whose alignment
    > is chaotic evil. It will reveal a vampire or demon.

    That was then. This is now. It was also a change from the first edition PH,
    were a paladin could ruin almost any investigation by simply detectig who
    was the bad guy. And if I remember right, characters started raditating
    evil at lvl 6.

    Only if they were VERY evil. A character of any level could radiate evil
    if they were currently actively involved in an evil act. e.g. If a
    character was currently intent on murdering another (not in the next ten
    days but in the next ten seconds or so) then regardless of their actual
    alignment (they may even be normally good for example) they will radiate
    evil at that time.


    But your way is really quite easy to implement under 3E - just define a
    minimum strength of evil aura (as per the definition under the Detect Evil
    spell) that is required to detect as evil or for evil-specific powers to
    work. This is a minimal patch. The only problem is that Holy Word (that can
    kill anyone who does not register as good) suddenly becomes a spell with a
    friendly-fire threat.

    Depends where you draw the minimum strength line. Personally, I`d make
    it that you had to be intrinsically evil by nature (demons, vampires
    etc) or extremely evil in your actions (tortured someone last night,
    murdered a friend last week etc).


    My solution is instead to say that a character has to be quite bad to
    actually have an evil alignment. You can do loads of bad things without
    actually having to be evil - normal greed, fear, prejudice and so on does
    not make you evil unless you really act out on it. This gives sort of the
    same end result - lesser bad guys don`t actually have an evil alignment, and
    thus don`t register on these spells.

    They can still have an evil alignment without `detecting as evil`. But
    here again, `bad` guys aren`t necessarily evil as you say.

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  4. #124
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    >> But your way is really quite easy to implement under 3E - just define a
    >> minimum strength of evil aura (as per the definition under the Detect Evil
    >> spell) that is required to detect as evil or for evil-specific powers to
    >> work. This is a minimal patch.

    Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU> wrote at 02-10-12 11.46:

    > Depends where you draw the minimum strength line. Personally, I`d make
    > it that you had to be intrinsically evil by nature (demons, vampires
    > etc) or extremely evil in your actions (tortured someone last night,
    > murdered a friend last week etc).

    No, if you use my method, you cannot do so. If you say, for example, that
    Faintly Evl things don`t count, then a 1/2 HD evil outsider would not
    register as evil, while a 10th level evil fighter would. So, if you want to
    use a Detect Evil definitions that picks out outsiders only, you have to
    make a greater modifiecation to the 3E rules. IMHO, a bad idea. Not that
    will/should prevent you from using it, but it is of less interest in the
    general discussion.

    /Carl

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  5. #125
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    > > In my Feng Shui games, "Evil" is defined as anything that is
    > > spiritually opposed to your own belefis. Thus, both sides in a
    > > conflict can detect the other as "evil" if their differences are
    > > fundamental enough. Simplifies things a lot.
    >
    > I agree that this is how it ought to work if it is done at all.
    >
    > I 120% disagree. And for good reason. How opposed would you have to be?


    Well, since you`re 120% opposed, you`d probably be *really* evil.

    -Lord Rahvin

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  6. #126
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    Originally posted by Peter Lubke

    Only if they were VERY evil. A character of any level could radiate evil if they were currently actively involved in an evil act. e.g. If a character was currently intent on murdering another (not in the next ten days but in the next ten seconds or so) then regardless of their actual alignment (they may even be normally good for example) they will radiate evil at that time.
    No, if the character currently thinks of evil, he will be detected too, if he is 1st level, not only higher. But you are right, that radiating evil doesn't begin at 6th but at 9th level. An (any kind of) evil character of 9th level or higher (who was evil from 1st level) will be detected by the spell even if he doesn't think of an evil act in the moment!
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

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