Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14
  1. #1
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    > Go on, you know you want to :)

    Only, because you asked.

    A duchy is a territory which is ruled by a duke or some greater figure.
    Avanil may well be a duchy ruled by a prince. Diemed is a duchy whose rule
    is divided between four different realms. Osoerde is a duchy. Ghieste and
    Dhalaene are duchies with no dukes, and possibly no real meaning anymore,
    depending on how much of their ancient territory is united still.

    A dukedom is the title itself. I can be a duke without a duchy. Maybe
    Queen Lillian Swordwraith`s brother is called His Grace Richard, Duke of
    Aerenwe. In such a case, Richard Swordwraith would have a dukedom, but no
    duchy. If Heirl Diem is duke of Diemed, he retains his dukedom, but only a
    part of his duchy.

    Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
    courtesy title. One consequence of this is that all of his officials would
    be ducal. That is they would be Chancellor of the Duchy of Avanil, advisor
    to the Prince.

    Occasionally it becomes politically neccesary for a ruler to simply not
    reach for a title to which he would otherwise seem entitled by conquest or
    inheritance. The Baron of Ghoere may have avoided claiming the title of
    Duke, because he had made enemies enough, and was more interested in holding
    on to his power, rather than taking risks to improve his prestige. If this
    is the case, there may well be someone out there still calling themself Duke
    of Ghieste and and someone calling themself Duke of Dhalaene. I`d imagine
    they`re in exile in Mhoried and Avanil, but YMMV.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    > Go on, you know you want to :)

    Only, because you asked.

    A duchy is a territory which is ruled by a duke or some greater figure.
    Avanil may well be a duchy ruled by a prince. Diemed is a duchy whose rule
    is divided between four different realms. Osoerde is a duchy. Ghieste and
    Dhalaene are duchies with no dukes, and possibly no real meaning anymore,
    depending on how much of their ancient territory is united still.

    A dukedom is the title itself. I can be a duke without a duchy. Maybe
    Queen Lillian Swordwraith`s brother is called His Grace Richard, Duke of
    Aerenwe. In such a case, Richard Swordwraith would have a dukedom, but no
    duchy. If Heirl Diem is duke of Diemed, he retains his dukedom, but only a
    part of his duchy.

    Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
    courtesy title. One consequence of this is that all of his officials would
    be ducal. That is they would be Chancellor of the Duchy of Avanil, advisor
    to the Prince.

    Occasionally it becomes politically neccesary for a ruler to simply not
    reach for a title to which he would otherwise seem entitled by conquest or
    inheritance. The Baron of Ghoere may have avoided claiming the title of
    Duke, because he had made enemies enough, and was more interested in holding
    on to his power, rather than taking risks to improve his prestige. If this
    is the case, there may well be someone out there still calling themself Duke
    of Ghieste and and someone calling themself Duke of Dhalaene. I`d imagine
    they`re in exile in Mhoried and Avanil, but YMMV.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  3. #3
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Thief River Falls, MN
    Posts
    473
    Downloads
    182
    Uploads
    19
    Hi,

    >From: Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
    >Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
    >courtesy title.

    I am of the school of thought that differs from this point. I see Avanil as
    a principality. Since there is a vacancy of royalty as regent over this
    imperial province the house of Avan has taken the Furst position. Not a
    royal title but a princely title. Thus I see the Prince of Avan as a Furst
    in the German sense of the title.

    To go on another note I see the Archduke of Boeruine as the Hapsburg style
    in Austria. This means a indirect line to the imperial throne by virtue of
    title alone. This argument is used for that of the Prince title of Avan if
    you view the title as the English do.

    __________________________________________________ _______________
    Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,178
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    7
    At 03:51 PM 9/18/2002 -0600, The Magian wrote:

    >>Almost certainly Avanil is a duchy and not a principality, but Avan has a
    >>courtesy title.
    >
    >I am of the school of thought that differs from this point. I see Avanil
    >as a principality. Since there is a vacancy of royalty as regent over
    >this imperial province the house of Avan has taken the Furst position.

    I prefer that view as well--that the provinces of Avanil were under the
    personal control of the emperor, but upon his death an Avan ancestor
    stepped in and took over the principality. Even if the Imperial City were
    a level 10 "province" 500 years before the period when the BR setting is
    published, it`s hard for me to picture the emperor just ruling that one
    province. If he ruled the provinces of Avanil then his personal domain is
    much more significant. It also helps explain the title/domain of the
    Chamberlain in that he "rules" the IC because that "province" represents
    the royal seat, not the royal demesne, and his authority only extends as
    far as the actual "house" as it were.

    Gary

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  5. #5
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "The Magian" <birthrightpbem@HOTMAIL.COM>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:51 PM


    > I see Avanil as a principality. Since there is a vacancy of royalty as
    > regent over this imperial province the house of Avan has taken the
    > Furst position. Not a royal title but a princely title. Thus I see the
    > Prince of Avan as a Furst in the German sense of the title.

    That`s certainly a possibility, but then Avanil is still a duchy, and Anuire
    province is a principality. Or do you mean something else? As a Furst, or
    prince, we`d expect to see a small territory otherwise the size of a county,
    a BR sized province.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  6. #6
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:13 PM

    > I prefer that view as well--that the provinces of Avanil were
    > under the personal control of the emperor [...] it`s hard for me
    > to picture the emperor just ruling that one province.

    I don`t neccesarily think the Emperor had an Isle de France type royal
    demesne, but rather an English style, "I own about a third of the provinces
    in Anuire, and about 2/3`s of the law holdings". That would be pretty
    significant too.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Canberra, Australia.
    Posts
    408
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Kenneth:
    > I don`t neccesarily think the Emperor had an Isle de France
    > type royal demesne, but rather an English style, "I own about
    > a third of the provinces in Anuire, and about 2/3`s of the
    > law holdings". That would be pretty significant too.

    In my approach, which uses Law holdings as the basis for taxation not
    simple province ownership, I would say that perhaps the Emperor owns all
    the PROVINCES of the Empire (or at least the Twelve) and allows the
    lesser nobles to manage them through control of the Law Holdings.

    Alternatively perhaps the Emperor exercised control through minor nobles
    who owed loyalty directly to him, and not to any other lords. This would
    provide the Emperor with law holdings all over the place.

    Alternatively alternatively perhaps the Emperor directly drew on the
    resources of the colonies and territopries outside of the region of
    Anuire for his income. When these started to collapse and rebel after
    the death of Michael Roel the Imperial Regents lost much of their income
    and became less able to keep the bickering Archdukes in check.

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  8. #8
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Canberra, Australia.
    Posts
    408
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Magian:
    > I am of the school of thought that differs from this point.
    > I see Avanil as a principality. Since there is a vacancy of
    > royalty as regent over this imperial province the house of
    > Avan has taken the Furst position. Not a royal title but a
    > princely title. Thus I see the Prince of Avan as a Furst in
    > the German sense of the title.

    I see the Empire at its height as a bit more centralised than the later
    Holy Roman Empire. I`m not sure that the concept of prince in Anuire is
    the same as that in Germany. Although it might be interesting to assume
    that nobilty arises from being the head of a blooded household, I am not
    sure if RoE does this. An interesting idea anyway.

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  9. #9
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Canberra, Australia.
    Posts
    408
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Kenneth:
    > Only, because you asked.

    I did indeed.

    <snip!>

    Thank you Kenneth. I hope that it was informative to people on the list.
    This is the general way I see things as well. I am not sure (for my
    campaign) if Darien Avan has taken "prince" because he is entitled to it
    or because it is a deliberate attempt on his part to associate himself
    as "the heir of the Empire".

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
    John 'Trithemius' Machin
    The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    474
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    On Thu, 2002-09-19 at 11:22, John Machin wrote:

    Kenneth:
    > Only, because you asked.

    I did indeed.

    <snip!>

    Thank you Kenneth. I hope that it was informative to people on the list.
    This is the general way I see things as well. I am not sure (for my
    campaign) if Darien Avan has taken "prince" because he is entitled to it
    or because it is a deliberate attempt on his part to associate himself
    as "the heir of the Empire".

    Or both. I prefer to accept that he is entitled to it but that it does
    not directly support a claim to the Empire. The office of Emperor seems
    to be apart from (that is a separate office) to the 12 duchies. As such
    it is almost certain that no one of the 12 Dukes/Duchesses could claim
    the Empire without the unanimous support of the remaining 11. As well,
    the support of the Chamberlain seems necessary.

    The latter day titles "Prince of Avanil", "Queen of Aerenwe" do not
    imply anything with respect to the past. Quite the opposite in fact,
    they show a clean break with the duchy system, indicating that both
    Aerenwe and Avanil see themselves as completely independent and beholden
    to no higher authority. This does not mean that other rulers do not
    similarly see their realms - just that they have not adopted a title to
    signify so (although this may even be the case with Boeruine).

    The Brosenge/Taeghas debate is quite easily explained. It is logical
    that the territories now claimed by Brosengae were once part of Taeghas
    - from both a geographical examination plus the festering claim of
    Brosengae to the Taeghan lands. Both however have a pseudo-vassal status
    with Avanil, a state that would only have come about through military
    intervention in both realms. This may not have happened at the same time
    however.

    My interpretation is that the duchy of Taeghas underwent a civil war,
    perhaps even with the intervention of both Boeruine and Avanil - during
    the wars of succession. This split the country with the former
    duke/duchess fleeing to the south (Brosengae). One would assume that the
    duke/duchess of the time was supported by Avanil, while the northern
    half was usurped by firces loyal to, or backed by, Boeruine. At some
    later time (sufficient that the establishment of two separate states was
    an established fact), Avanil again intervenes in what is now Taeghas but
    successfully this time.

    Cariele was from several sources, once much larger, including parts of
    the five peaks and Thurazor, and possibly parts of Dhoesone - which was
    once largely a Rjurik realm (the name of which escapes me for the
    moment).


    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

    ************************************************** **************************
    The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
    Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
    To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.