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Thread: Formation in Battle.
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09-16-2002, 03:45 PM #1
One of the big factors in large scale combat is the use of formations by
troops. Various formations are used to maximize the efficiency of the
troops` position and maneuverability on the battlefield, and troops in a
particular formation are more able to deal damage to their opponents than
others.
Right now I`m thinking that if I want to incorporate formations into a
system of large scale combat for BR it could be done by assigning different
values to the various stats for the troop type. Troops in "line abreast"
formation, for instance, could get a +1 to offensive, but a -1 to defensive
values. Troops in a "hedgehog" formation could get the opposite. Things
like that.
Anyone have thoughts on using formations in BR? Are there any wargames
that used them in a way you liked?
Gary
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09-16-2002, 05:23 PM #2
I like the idea. there needs to be a way to realy use stradagy in BR.
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09-16-2002, 09:44 PM #3
At 07:23 PM 9/16/2002 +0200, marcum uth mather wrote:
> I like the idea. there needs to be a way to realy use stradagy in BR.
Yeah, more strategy in the battle rules is part of the goal. The problem,
of course, would be that assigning a formation to every company of soldiers
on a battlefield would slow things down quite a bit. Such a system would
probably need to be tailored for a particular system of battle rules too,
but assuming we were using a system like the warcards of BR what kinds of
formations might be employed and what might be the effects of those formations?
Gary
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09-16-2002, 10:00 PM #4
Since formations are part of the scissors, rock, paper nature of combat,
formations are going to have specific bonus against certain kinds of troops,
and penalties against other troops.
Basically you create a grid with all the troop types on both axis. You
generally leave most spaces as no modifiers, and give bonuses and penalties
to a few troop types for each troop.
Further, some troops have special features, like high rates of speed,
attacking from range, and so forth, that may not be worked into the attack
and defense numbers.
Of course these are abstracting features that are handled quite differently
in regular man to man combat. The advantage of "line abreast" is that
because no one is standing behind anyone else, everyone gets to attack. On
the other hand, the formation is very vulnerable to being disrupted. Deep
formations "waste" alot of manpower on people unable to attack, but they are
also very hard to disrupt.
Units fighting in formation need the Close-Order Fighting feat (from
Soveriegn Stone) or the weaker Phalanx feat from AEG`s War or Mercenaries.
When two characters have Close-Order fighting, the one on the left gains the
benifits of one quarter cover (+2 AC, +1 Reflex save). Breaking a formation
not only reduces the benefits of Close-Order Fighting by creating a much
larger number of characters with no one to his right giving him protection,
but it increases the opportunities for flank attacks.
Because proper formations require that everyone (at least in the first rank
or two) have a special feat to take advantage of the formation, proper
formations and close order fighting is kind of an elite or otherwise special
phenomena.
IMC, the Anuirean elite infantry and Brecht pikemen generally try to train
these feats (when experience makes aquiring a feat allowable). I have been
working on a list of feats commonly held by certain formations.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-16-2002, 10:00 PM #5
We`re actually talking about tactics. Strategy is the skill of using
battles to achieve a political or military objective.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-17-2002, 04:28 AM #6
Marcum:
> I like the idea. there needs to be a way to realy use stradagy in BR.
That`d be tactics, not really strategy.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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09-17-2002, 05:59 AM #7
DBM assumes that good (or bad) use of formation is calculated into an
elements quality.
There is some additional advantages about deploying pikes, spears, and
warbands in depth but this is largely covered by Kenneth when he talks
about the trade off between length of lines and coherency of lines.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-17-2002, 05:59 AM #8
Kenneth:
> We`re actually talking about tactics. Strategy is the skill
> of using battles to achieve a political or military objective.
Oops. Sorry for the clone-post, Kenneth was obviously telepathically
reading my mind from the future again.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-17-2002, 05:59 AM #9
Kenneth:
> Since formations are part of the scissors, rock, paper nature
> of combat, formations are going to have specific bonus
> against certain kinds of troops, and penalties against other troops.
I think that fundamental changes in formation probably represent
"Advances" (as per BoR). Developments in military science are hard to
bring about and I have some problems with medieval forces using
sophisticated `modern` formations. That is the province of those crazy
genius commanders with Battlewise in my opinion. Most commanders would
be limited to the regular old formations.
> Units fighting in formation need the Close-Order Fighting
> feat (from Soveriegn Stone) or the weaker Phalanx feat from
> AEG`s War or Mercenaries. When two characters have
> Close-Order fighting, the one on the left gains the benifits
> of one quarter cover (+2 AC, +1 Reflex save). Breaking a
> formation not only reduces the benefits of Close-Order
> Fighting by creating a much larger number of characters with
> no one to his right giving him protection, but it increases
> the opportunities for flank attacks.
Or the version in the Forgotten Realms `Lords of Darkness` book.
(Included for completeness only).
> Because proper formations require that everyone (at least in
> the first rank or two) have a special feat to take advantage
> of the formation, proper formations and close order fighting
> is kind of an elite or otherwise special phenomena.
As is, in my opinion, having a repertoire of formations.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-17-2002, 08:16 AM #10
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Formation changes is a modern concept. Each type of unit has a standard
formation, and only elite units are able to take on more than one formation.
In fact, the very idea of formations (which is suggested by the troop types
of the war cards) is one of the things that makes me think Cerilia is not
high medeival, but more at the late hundred-years-war stage of military
history (15th century).
I see no need for special formation rules. Whetever formation (or lack of
formation) the unit uses is included in it`s attributes, regardless if you
use war cards or some other system.
Formation in European battles was more a matter of holding the line than of
arranging the soldiers in geometric patterns. If you really want formations,
ordered lines and troop types to matter, I suggest you use the DBA/DBM
system - which has been promoted before on this list by others.
/Carl
Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote at 02-09-16 23.31:
> The problem, of course, would be that assigning a formation to every company
> of soldiers on a battlefield would slow things down quite a bit. Such a
> system would probably need to be tailored for a particular system of battle
> rules too, but assuming we were using a system like the warcards of BR what
> kinds of formations might be employed and what might be the effects of those
> formations?
>
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