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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
    static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
    go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage. There
    are, of course, rules to make it more dynamic (trip, bull rush, etc.) but
    since they provoke attacks of opportunity, players are reluctant to use
    them unless their PCs also take feats or a particular prestige class to
    avoid the AoO. The following critical hit/fumble variant is meant to make
    combat more dynamic.


    Fumble

    When you roll a 1 on an attack roll you provoke a fumble threat. You must
    make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid a fumble. If you do fumble one of your
    opponents (determined randomly if you face multiple opponents) gets to roll
    on the table below.

    NOTE: At present I think I`m going to use this for both melee and missile
    combat. The results of the table below are almost all melee options, of
    course, so it might be argued that an opponent at a distance would not
    provoke a character to drop his/er weapon because of a free disarm attempt
    or fall prone because of a free trip attack, but the results here are not
    necessarily meant to represent an opponent performing that action. Rather,
    it represents a character who fumbled actually losing his grip or stumbling
    in the highly abstracted D&D combat. More powerful/skillful opponents do
    put people in a position where they are more likely to make mistakes, so
    using the opponent`s values for the results of a fumble check will reflect
    that. I`m not wild about the DC 15 Reflex save to avoid the fumble. I`d
    prefer an opposed check, but I couldn`t come up with what traits that check
    would be based on.


    Critical Hit Variant

    After a critical hit is confirmed roll on the following table to determine
    additional effects. Taking an additional critical hit effect is
    optional. That is, if you get a critical hit on a target and roll a 6 on
    the table below you don`t have to make the free grapple attack if you don`t
    want.
    d12 Result
    1 Free strike at armor or shield (50/50).
    2 Free disarm attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
    3 Free sunder attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
    4 Free feint.
    5 Free bull rush attack.
    6 Free grapple check.
    7 Free trip attack.
    8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
    9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
    10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50)
    for 1 round.
    11 Target or fumbler suffers x1 of subdual damage.
    12 Roll twice ignoring this result if rolled again.

    Of these 8-11 are the ones I`m least enthused about. I`d rather an opposed
    roll, but again I couldn`t think of what trait(s) would oppose one another
    for the purpose of those effects. #11 is OK, but again there`s no opposed
    roll which I`d like for all the effects.

    Anyone have thoughts on this?
    Gary

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  2. #2
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    Orginally posted by geeman

    One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
    static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
    go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage.
    I agree. Call me a war gamer if you want :P , but I would like if the combat were more tactical. IMC we use the optional rule of the DMG that when you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll you must make a DC 10 Dex check or fumble. The rule is abstract on what is fumble - it says the standard is to concede an AoO, but it can be other things, like falling prone.
    This ruling is nice, but IMO it could depend less on the DM to determine what is the fumble. Like what Gary made, a table...
    I would also like to have a critical hit system like that found on the AD&D Combat and Tatics (that one was cool, but maybe too complex). I say that because I like when, for example, Anakin's arm is cut off... it can be fun to have a fighter with a history (this hand I lost when I was battling the Gorgon and the Kraken...). It's hard to have this with the abstract hp system.
    Ok, I admit, I'm sadictic with my PCs ;) .

  3. #3
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    Orginally posted by geeman
    8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
    9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
    10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50)
    for 1 round.
    Good effects, but why Will save? Don't you think that Fortitude fits more?

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 06:34 AM 9/11/2002 +0200, Sir Justine wrote:

    >>8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
    >>9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
    >>10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50) for 1 round.
    >
    >Good effects, but why Will save? Don`t you think that Fortitude fits more?

    I guess there`s an argument for Reflex saves too.

    I made it a Will save to reflect a sort of "shake it off" kind of effect
    for effect 8 and 9 (dazed and blinded.) Originally, effect 10 was Str, Dex
    or Con, so I made that Will so that it couldn`t double up on the ability
    score. That is, I wanted to avoid a Fortitude save needed to prevent a Con
    loss, and I just kept it a Will save even though I switched the ability
    score lost to Str or Dex alone.

    Gary

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  5. #5
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    Sir Justine <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-09-11 06.30:

    > Orginally posted by geeman
    >
    > One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
    > static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
    > go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage.
    >

    The quality of 3E cobat is that it IS tactical. This is one of the strong
    points of the game.

    You can choose between stepping and moving - which effectively gives more
    options to unengaged "reserves". A cornered character cannot be otflanked -
    but neither can he flee or maneouver. With a few rogues involved, the
    question of flanking becomes paramount.

    Similarily, which mounted lances about, lines become very valuable; it is
    the only way to prevent those Ride-By attacks.

    And reach adds a lot of tactical issues, as well.

    Of course, this does not mean that there could not be more such tactical
    rules - but beware overcomlexivity.

    /Carl

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  6. #6
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    On Wed, 2002-09-11 at 06:27, Gary wrote:

    One of the things I`ve never really liked about 3e combat is that it`s very
    static. There`s a little bit of movement, but for the most part characters
    go toe to toe with opponents, roll attacks and take/deliver damage. There
    are, of course, rules to make it more dynamic (trip, bull rush, etc.) but
    since they provoke attacks of opportunity, players are reluctant to use
    them unless their PCs also take feats or a particular prestige class to
    avoid the AoO. The following critical hit/fumble variant is meant to make
    combat more dynamic.

    One of the things I`ve never really liked about 2e combat is that they
    made the incredibly stupid mistake of attempting to make it simulate
    real combat (against the strongest advice from EGG). One of the basic
    tenets of AD&D was that the combat system had nothing whatsoever to do
    with simulating combat. A one minute round was abstracted into a single
    die roll and that was that - all the feints, multiple attacks, dodges,
    maneuvers, swishing and swooping, movement etc - all abstracted into a
    single simple roll, no need for initiative, weapon speed, hit locations,
    critical hits, and all the other detail that can be added infinitum when
    you try and simulate something. Perfect!



    Fumble

    When you roll a 1 on an attack roll you provoke a fumble threat. You must
    make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid a fumble. If you do fumble one of your
    opponents (determined randomly if you face multiple opponents) gets to roll
    on the table below.

    NOTE: At present I think I`m going to use this for both melee and missile
    combat. The results of the table below are almost all melee options, of
    course, so it might be argued that an opponent at a distance would not
    provoke a character to drop his/er weapon because of a free disarm attempt
    or fall prone because of a free trip attack, but the results here are not
    necessarily meant to represent an opponent performing that action. Rather,
    it represents a character who fumbled actually losing his grip or stumbling
    in the highly abstracted D&D combat. More powerful/skillful opponents do
    put people in a position where they are more likely to make mistakes, so
    using the opponent`s values for the results of a fumble check will reflect
    that. I`m not wild about the DC 15 Reflex save to avoid the fumble. I`d
    prefer an opposed check, but I couldn`t come up with what traits that check
    would be based on.


    Critical Hit Variant

    After a critical hit is confirmed roll on the following table to determine
    additional effects. Taking an additional critical hit effect is
    optional. That is, if you get a critical hit on a target and roll a 6 on
    the table below you don`t have to make the free grapple attack if you don`t
    want.
    d12 Result
    1 Free strike at armor or shield (50/50).
    2 Free disarm attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
    3 Free sunder attempt. (If target is unarmed reroll this result.)
    4 Free feint.
    5 Free bull rush attack.
    6 Free grapple check.
    7 Free trip attack.
    8 Make a DC 15 Will save or be dazed for 1 round.
    9 Make a DC 15 Will save or be blinded for 1 round.
    10 Make a DC 15 Will save or suffer -2 to Str or Dex (50/50)
    for 1 round.
    11 Target or fumbler suffers x1 of subdual damage.
    12 Roll twice ignoring this result if rolled again.

    Of these 8-11 are the ones I`m least enthused about. I`d rather an opposed
    roll, but again I couldn`t think of what trait(s) would oppose one another
    for the purpose of those effects. #11 is OK, but again there`s no opposed
    roll which I`d like for all the effects.

    Anyone have thoughts on this?
    Gary

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  7. #7
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    If you search for a critical-hit rule, look at the 2. Edition source book "Combat and tactics". However, the fumble and critical hit rule you invented do not fit to the 3. Edition rules.

    for example the rules in the epic level handbook make the die rolls open-ended: if you throw a 20, you can make an additional throw and add them together.

    i have seen several critical hit rules in D&D, and it nether worked well compared to "Rolemaster" o.a.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

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    Further how do you handle the critical thread range of weapons with this rule?
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  9. #9
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:51 PM 9/11/2002 +0200, Azrai wrote:

    > Further how do you handle the critical thread range of weapons with this
    > rule?

    When I scribbled that table up I imagined that it would be used as an
    addition to the standard critical hit rules. That is, you still need to
    confirm a critical threat, the critical hit still does a multiplier of
    damage according to the weapon type, then you roll on that table. The idea
    being that all three steps require a die roll and the results of third step
    on that table is more often than not an opposed check rather than the
    automatic effect of most critical hit tables I`ve seen. That`s why I
    wanted some sort of opposed check rather than a DC for the fumble section,
    and why I wanted all the options on that table to be opposed as
    well. Thematically opposed checks fit in with the overall concept that
    these are "forced" effects and if all the effects have a similar game
    mechanic then the option has some consistency, which is why I`m not
    satisfied with the options that don`t have an opposed check in them.

    Gary

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  10. #10
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    I see.

    concerning the opposed checks there were some good rules for criticals in the "Dark Sun Gladiator Handbook". I have to read it up somehow.
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

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