3E Birthright Finances

[imperialtemple]

I've been looking at a lot of the new 3E stuff that they've been coming out with. And, one thing that I've noticed is that prices for everything in 3E seems to be a lot higher -- particularly if you look at anything in the "Stronghold Builder's Guidebook" that they've put together.

In 2E Birthright, 1 GB = 2,000 GP. And, palaces and castles were paid for in 10,000 GP and 20,000 GP increments . . . . However, under the 3E system, those figures hardly cover the costs of some rooms.

Has there been any other discussion about this anywhere?

[Sir Justine]

I didn't had the opportunity to read much of the Stronghold Builder, but the little I read I liked and I will probably link the rules there to Birthright domain rules (which I will rewrite to 3º ed.). When I get the book again and do the rules I will post then here.
About what you said, if you look at the DMG (of course the tables there are just approximations, but you can have an idea), the price of an big castle is 1.000.000! Very expensive... Maybe the GB should be reajusted!

[Starfox]

I have used a 10,000 gp GB in 3E. That makes a level 10 castle cost 80,000
gp -somewhat more reasonable.

Not only are castles very expensive, magic items are too.

But this question has been under discussion previously, and people have
their own, very firms opinions and tied to the old GB, so I guess nothing
will change.

Sir Justine <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-09-08 08.18:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=928
>
> Sir Justine wrote:
> I didn`t had the opportunity to read much of the Stronghold Builder, but the
> little I read I liked and I will probably link the rules there to Birthright
> domain rules (which I will rewrite to 3º ed.). When I get the book again and
> do the rules I will post then here.
> About what you said, if you look at the DMG (of course the tables there are
> just approximations, but you can have an idea), the price of an big castle is
> 1.000.000! Very expensive... Maybe the GB should be reajusted!
>
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[Raesene Andu]

One thing to point out is that the prices listed are for your normal PC character. They include hiring mason, engineer, carpenters, labourers, etc as well as the more material costs (lumber, stone, etc).

A regent, the ruler of the kingdom, probably already has these skilled tradesmen working for him, as he would have armourers and weapons smiths to equip his armies. He probably owns quarrys and forests, reducing the cost of the construction and could even draft in his army and the local prison population if need to bring the cost down.

Now under the current Birthright rules, a regent can build a tiny fort for 16,000 gp (8 GB), or a huge fortress for 160,000gp (80 GB). This is still a huge amount of money, but only a fraction of what you average commoner would need to pay, due to the factor's I've mentioned.

[Trithemius]

Carl:
> But this question has been under discussion previously, and
> people have their own, very firms opinions and tied to the
> old GB, so I guess nothing will change.

Either that or everyone has their own quite different ideas about how
they should be changed.

I personally wonder how domains can produce the GB that they do produce
already when GB = 2,000gp, leta lone when GB = 10,000. It seems like an
incredible amount of coin, goods, and services.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[geeman]

At 11:29 AM 9/8/2002 +0200, Raesene Andu wrote:

>Now under the current Birthright rules, a regent can build a tiny fort for
>16,000 gp (8 GB), or a huge fortress for 160,000gp (80 GB). This is still
>a huge amount of money, but only a fraction of what you average commoner
>would need to pay, due to the factor`s I`ve mentioned.

I call this the "feudal economics rationale" and it works fine within the
domain system. The 2,000gp GB is assumed to buy a much larger amount of
actual value in goods and services due to fealty owed to regents and
infrastructure they control, so it can be used for almost any aspect of the
domain system from the cost of castles and mustering troops to empowering
realm spells and performing domain actions. There are still a few hinky
aspects to it when one looks at some specific aspects of the domain system,
but as a rationale it works.

The GB valued at 2,000gp makes less sense, however, when one crosses the
adventure level of play and the domain level. Regents who go on adventures
can return with more wealth in a month than their realm earns in a year,
and if regents use their GB to try to influence events at the adventure
level (hiring adventurers, purchasing magic items that would be more
expensive in BR already due to the scarcity of true magic users) the GB has
very little influence. Certainly not the kind of influence you would think
would be generated by the treasury of a domain.

Gary

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[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by Raesene Andu

One thing to point out is that the prices listed are for your normal PC character. They include hiring mason, engineer, carpenters, labourers, etc as well as the more material costs (lumber, stone, etc).

Yes and those prices are a little bit high for me. A soldier gets 6 GP/ month? If I would pay this much, I was ruined very soon...

[imperialtemple]

Well, if you use their labor prices, this is how it works out . . . .

At the start of 551 MR, the average province level is 3. So, you have 10,000 people earning the basic laborer's wage of about 3 GP / month.

That's 30,000 GP in wages each month or 90,000 GP in wages for an entire season.

Now, you start throwing in other factors . . . . The presence of skilled professionals who earn more than 3 GP / month probably raises the base somewhat. And, then you have to take into consideration profit margin -- the fact that the laborer doesn't see everything he produces returned to him in wages . . . . Together these factors might boast the "overall product" of the province to 120,000 or 150,000.

The State claims 2.0 - 3.5 GB / season -- on average about 2.5 GB. And, the guilds and temples rake in another 2.5 GB / season apiece. That means that about 7.5 GB goes into the pockets of various regents.

At 2,000 GP per GB, that's roughly 15,000. At 5,000 GP per GB, it's 37,500. And, at 10,000 GP per GB, it's about 75,000 GP.

This may seem like a lot, but if you start factoring in everything it makes more sense . . . . This sum reflects rent, taxes, tithes, and corporate profit. Remember the lord owns the land. So, he renting it out as well as taxing it. The Church is the center of the peasant's life in the medieval ages. So, he's likely to pay more than 10%. Plus, you have the ever-present guild monopolies.

[Ariadne]

May be I should have said, that I have only a temple holding (but the state's religion), no domain. I pay no taxes, but I have to matinee an army...