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Thread: Cerilian Apotheosis
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09-03-2002, 06:45 PM #11
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This is a nice idea. I am nt sure I`d use it in BR though. I think it
better suits another campaign setting much more. (I do not mean this
badly in anyway, I just don`t think that ascent to godhood needs to be a
feature of the BR campaign).
Why not exactly? I'm not saying I would use ascension IMC (I still don't have an opinion), but do you have an argument of why not use?
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09-03-2002, 10:30 PM #12
"Sir Justine":
> Why not exactly? I`m not saying I would use ascension IMC (I
> still don`t have an opinion), but do you have an argument of
> why not use?
I don`t think that the BR setting benefits from having this as a
feature. The game is foccussed largely on the terrestrial world and
mortal rulership, I don`t want apotheosis there to distract people and
give them goals that I have no desire to allow them to fulfill.
I run games that feature ascension to the divine as a core motif before
and they have been very enjoyable (and long!). However, I`d rather BR
not have the capacity to allow players to "rise above it all".
I cannot say that any arguments as to why player characters should be
allowed to has convinced me differently.
--
Philip Valois II, styled by some `the Great`,
Prince of Burgundy and of the Empire,
Sovereign of the Order of the Golden Fleece.
-----------------------------------
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-03-2002, 10:30 PM #13
"Sir Justine":
> Kgauck and Gary talk a lot... ;)
They (and the rest of the BR-L population) often have a lot to say that
can`t be expressed in just a few lines.
> IMC, my players are on 5-6 level, so I still have much time
> to think about ascension and gods! And the most high-level pc
> I ever played (from the 1º level) is now 13º level, so I
> don`t give much thought to Epic level to be sincere!
Well, if you don`t, then perhaps some other people do. Since we don`t
have things nicely treeing off of a forum on listserve we tend to
address our replies to "the list population in general".
For us it is more like a debate in a forum that everyoe heres than
conversations in sub-areas like a set of boards.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-03-2002, 10:45 PM #14
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 9:34 AM
> What`s the qualitative difference that blocks the quantitative
> progression? If a character could somehow gain a bloodline strength score
> that was in the middle triple digits and gain essentially, all the blood
> abilities for that derivation plus additional ones that were greater than
> great abilities wouldn`t he be for all intents and purposes a divine
> being? I`m not saying there shouldn`t or couldn`t be such a qualitative
> difference, I`m just curious how you define it.
Part of it is definitional. Gods are gods, people are people, ducks are
ducks. Ducks don`t become peolpe or gods, and people don`t become ducks or
people. Part of it is the huge gulf between a human with triple digit blood
strength and all the blood ability one the one hand, and gods on the other.
Gods hand out 9th level spells to dozens of priests, if not scores. 8th
level spells to maybe a hundred priests. And so on down. And there is no
reason to believe that this is the limit of their ability. Scions of Reynir
may meld into stone or passwall once per day. Gods can do that an unlimited
amount of time, teleport without error, visit a wounded tuna deep in the
sea, heal it, turn it into a constellation, return to their home plane, and
still hand out all the spells being cast that day. Gods are immeasurably
more powerful than the most powerful mortal. Divine powers are unlimited.
> [...] What is the qualitative difference between the Gorgon [with 800
> points of blood power] and a lesser god? Any of the qualities of a
> lesser god could be acquired by additional blood abilities and more
> powerful ("epic") versions of blood abilities available to characters
> with a bloodline strength score well into the triple digits.
No they couldn`t. Epic bloodstrength characters could present pale
immitations of more limited versions of divine powers. Gods are not x10
more powerful than humans. I couldn`t guess the proper order of magnitude,
but I`ll point out that all of the followers of the tribal gods weren`t
enough to topple Azrai, so 10,000 to 1 is probabaly too small.
> I feel obliged to contend that real life mass equates to spellcasting. It
> strikes me as being more like the adoration that creates RP or whatever
the
> godly energy the empowers the gods is.
> I don`t think D&D spellcasting is a particularly accurate
> reflection of real life any more than hit points accurately
> portray physical damage, the intelligence score accurately
> reflects intellect or the domain rules accurately represent
> the way nations and how they engage in their politics.
> Aside from that I don`t think I`m getting the relevance of the above to
the
> point that bloodlines are created from the divine essence of the gods and
> are, therefore, more closely related to the process of ascension than real
> world theological figures.
Says who? You just don`t want to accord historical figures the divine
element that you happly bestow upon Darien Avan, as though the founding of a
great nation is done by some guy off the street, and Avan is a semi-divine
figure. I`d put more Bloodstrength in a mediocre pharaoh than I would in
any BR character. You couldn`t run Egypt without it.
> Bloodlines are what makes divinity possible for
> BR characters where figures like Abraham remain human. Abraham et al have
> no direct aspect of divinity in them, or no more than the rest of us. The
> Christian figure who does have a divine spark actually does ascend to
godhood.
The common word for the divine spark, is a soul, and the theological system
that posits one argues all people have it. Hence followers are all
potentially granted immortality.
> When it comes to Christian ascension, however, can`t one interpret
> beautification as the process by which mortals become immortals? Saints
> essentially act as lesser immortal beings in D&D terms.
Certainly are, but they`re not gods. Their power comes from a higher
source. They are intermediaries, not divinities.
> People pray to them, they (supposedly) grant benefices, they have
> a portfolio, etc. So I`d contend even the real life example of
> Christian doctrine since it has many features that coincide with the
> D&D paradigm. Most religions have some sort of ascension that
> turns mortals into divine beings.
Immortals, yes. Gods, no.
> You`ve suggested that a mortal couldn`t become immortal without some sort
> of divine assistance. I don`t really agree, but even using that standard
> doesn`t the bloodline system itself represents the kind of jump start
> needed to enter into the ranks of divinity?
Not if I don`t want it to.
> Well, my experience has been happy, I just don`t find a lot of "realism"
in
> it.
So its not a happy realism, its a happy fantasy, or something else. I`m
talking about a happy realism. Not a boring realism, a tedious realism, or
a sad little realism.
> The BR domain rules need substantial alteration (or a whole lot of
> rationalization) in order to play them under the supposition that they in
> any way represent "real life."
Then it only goes to figure that some of us are doing that rationalism, and
like it.
> I don`t much care for realism in RPGs. If one came up with the
> most realistic game conceivable I`d probably not play it. I get
> enough realism in my real life.
No, that`s banality. Realism is what Jackson set about to creat in his
movie of LoTR. Having objects hand crafted with a certain level of
technology, giving thought to how elven tablewhere would differ from hobbit
tablewear. Banality is where I worry about standing in line at the
fishmonger.
> I don`t mind trying to sync up certain game effects with "reality" (though
> I find many people more often than not have a "reality" standard that is
as
> unrealistic as D&D) but I don`t think any game system or mechanic can
> really reflect reality accurately. Reality is too complex and much more
> significant than is accurately portrayed with a few numbers, dice and
> character sheets.
This is, after all, a game. Some concessions to its gameness is allowed.
Simplification`s purpose however, is not to escape realism, but to leave out
the dull parts, and focus on the fun. During our daily lives we have to sit
in waiting rooms, and stand in line, and three weeks of travel time takes
three weeks, not a couple of dice rolls behind a screen. But, being a game,
those who cleave a realistic approach prefer to imagine that while we didn`t
dwell upon the three weeks of walking, it was nonetheless realistic in its
muddy, cold, wet, slow, tiring way. Its the banality we abandon, not the
fact that bold actions might frighten neutrals into an enemy camp.
Playing the game is not supposed to leave you with the sense that, "oh yeah,
that was gritty realism down to the sand in my shoe, and the infection in my
injuries. I`m off now to visit the VA hospital." Its allowable to focus on
the heroic, because that`s an interpretation of the event, not the event
itself. I think its perfectly acceptable to put a heroic motif on the game,
meaning we imagine a realistic course of events transpires, and then reflect
on the most elevating features and ignore the tedium. Were concerned both
with what archeaologists and historians say knighthood was like as well as
with what troubadours and romance writers say it was like. In such a case,
we do knightly things, but we do them very well. As opposed to doing
super-human things and ignoring limitations all together.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-03-2002, 10:45 PM #15
Gary says:
> > People pray to them, they (supposedly) grant benefices, they have a
> > portfolio, etc. So I`d contend even the real life example of
> > Christian doctrine since it has many features that coincide
> > with the D&D paradigm. Most religions have some sort of ascension
> > that turns mortals into divine beings.
Kenneth replies:
> Immortals, yes. Gods, no.
If you want to think of this in D&D terminology you could say that a
saint is like a proxy. While they live they can wield more of their
deity`s power than the most powerful priests (note that it is always the
deity`s power, not their own) and when they perish they go to a special
reward in heaven. They aren`t gods themselves though.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-03-2002, 11:43 PM #16
At 10:41 AM 9/4/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:
> > Immortals, yes. Gods, no.
>
>If you want to think of this in D&D terminology you could say that a saint
>is like a proxy. While they live they can wield more of their deity`s
>power than the most powerful priests (note that it is always the deity`s
>power, not their own) and when they perish they go to a special reward in
>heaven. They aren`t gods themselves though.
Proxies actually are mortals. Saints are a step above proxies, often being
beings that were once divinely favored mortals, but are then elevated to a
divine status and able to dole out their own favor to the faithful. For
all intents and purposes they serve the same role that lesser deities do in
polytheistic religions, but aren`t actually described as gods even though
they exist in pretty much the same niche. Proxies have a power granted to
them, but they don`t become an independent figure in the religion the way a
saint does.
Gary
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09-04-2002, 01:26 AM #17
Gary:
> Proxies actually are mortals. Saints are a step above
> proxies, often being beings that were once divinely favored
> mortals, but are then elevated to a divine status and able to
> dole out their own favor to the faithful. For all intents
> and purposes they serve the same role that lesser deities do
> in polytheistic religions, but aren`t actually described as
> gods even though they exist in pretty much the same niche.
> Proxies have a power granted to them, but they don`t become
> an independent figure in the religion the way a saint does.
I am afraid that the Deities and Demigods accessory disagrees with you
on this one Gary. Proxies are Rank 1 `demideities` and, as such, also
fall under the description you have given for saints above.
I`d say what you give as a description of a proxy is more like a
description for the role of a priest (i.e. spell-casting cleric).
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-04-2002, 06:47 AM #18
At 10:19 AM 9/4/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:
> > Why not exactly? I`m not saying I would use ascension IMC (I
> > still don`t have an opinion), but do you have an argument of
> > why not use?
>
>I don`t think that the BR setting benefits from having this as a feature.
>The game is foccussed largely on the terrestrial world and mortal
>rulership, I don`t want apotheosis there to distract people and
>give them goals that I have no desire to allow them to fulfill.
Well, it would be an amazingly rare feature.... Really, it would be an
option only for a few characters and those would almost always be NPCs
unless the campaign was specifically designed for PCs to have such a
goal. It`s hard to picture a typical, low level campaign with BR regents
having bloodline strength scores in the 20-35 range getting to the point
where they could ascend.
On the other hand, removing the possibility means one probably needs to
explain what the real goal is behind many of the activities of some of the
major awnsheghlien.
Gary
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09-04-2002, 06:47 AM #19
At 12:48 PM 9/4/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:
>I am afraid that the Deities and Demigods accessory disagrees with you
>on this one Gary. Proxies are Rank 1 `demideities` and, as such, also
>fall under the description you have given for saints above.
Ah, OK, I`m not up on the 3e Deities and Demigods, so I`m working with more
of a pre-3e version of the Planescape accessory. Given that description
wouldn`t BR scions all qualify for the same status?
Gary
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09-04-2002, 03:30 PM #20
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On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, Gary wrote:
> >I am afraid that the Deities and Demigods accessory disagrees with you
> >on this one Gary. Proxies are Rank 1 `demideities` and, as such, also
> >fall under the description you have given for saints above.
>
> Ah, OK, I`m not up on the 3e Deities and Demigods, so I`m working with more
> of a pre-3e version of the Planescape accessory. Given that description
> wouldn`t BR scions all qualify for the same status?
I don`t think so. At best, powerful scions like the gorgon, serpent, and
maybe the Imperial line in Anuire might qualify as quasi-deities, rank 0.
But by the rules, quasideities are immortal, and tend to be a lot more
powerful than scions.
I am working on a way to use salient abilities, the divine abilities
gained with rank, as blood abilities. Something above minor, major,
great. True, maybe, and salient above that. True long life would be
ageless immortality, that kind of thing. Scions with at least one of
these would definitely qualify as quasideities if not demigods. I don`t
know that I`d let them grant spells, though.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu
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