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  1. #31
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Gary:
    <snip!>

    I am fine with having rules enshrined since I consider all rules to,
    ultimately, be flexible. If it is a rule like this it justs means that
    this is the normal average result. It is more of a guideline on
    character creation - if you want a stock-standard PC then follow the
    "rules" to the letter, if prefer something a bit (or a lot) different
    then you break the rules (with your DMs consent of course).

    I actually think "rules" are a bad term for character creation
    guidelines personally, especially since I regularly ask my DMs
    permission to break them myself.

    Kenneth has a nice analogy for this subject featuring roadmaps and
    bush-bashing and bears, but I`ll let him talk about that :)

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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  2. #32
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
    Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:44 PM

    > Kenneth has a nice analogy for this subject featuring roadmaps and
    > bush-bashing and bears, but I`ll let him talk about that :)

    My analogy follows. It concerns what I was mentioning yesterday, that a
    match between setting and character. Given our knowledge of the Khinasi
    culture, its easy to imagine how to play a Khinasi wizard. Likewise a
    Brecht rogue. Problems come along when when a character concept isn`t well
    supported by setting knowledge. Hence, we need a map of the setting
    (metaphorically). When I start talking about several of the Khinasi wizards
    or Brecht rogues I have in my game, readers will easily begin to match that
    to the game information. When I start talking about Khinasi druids and
    barbarians living out among the wastes, readers will see the connections,
    but walk away thinking that I`m going somewhere a little different than
    most, but haven`t stretched things to the breaking point. When I start
    talking about the many LG paladins of Haelyn in Vosgaard (Teodor Profiev)
    with the Blood of Azrai, I`m now into the realm of what are generally
    prohibited characters. The very notion of this character poses questions
    which Anuirean priests of Sera and Khinasi wizards don`t. For such a
    character to work, some additional character building hurdles have to be
    crossed. So, bloodline, class, and culture should be considered as a
    complex of linked identities.

    Using my "road less traveled" analogy, the common character combination is
    the road more travelled, and its a well marked road. Furthermore, you
    probabaly know the way. Rare, means you need a map, and you should plan to
    have enough provisions, there may not be a place to stop and buy rations on
    the way. Prohibited means you need an atlas. You have mountains to cross,
    and by the way, look out for bears.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #33
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Gary:
    > Actually, I wouldn`t mind a paladin-like set of "core"
    > classes with much more general class abilities.... more of a
    > fighter with an emphasis than the paladin/cleric crossbreed
    > it is now. "Squire" or something to that effect for the
    > knightly version of the paladin of Anduiras described as a
    > prestige class, "Sailor" for Nesirie, "Jannisary" or
    > something like it for the paladins prestige class of Avani.
    > All of those would be based on the fighter, but with various
    > tweaks, a different list of feats to chose from, different
    > skill lists, etc. The paladin-prestige classes, of course,
    > wouldn`t require someone to take on those particular "core"
    > classes (nor should any prestige class) but they would be the
    > most apt "background" classes for those paladins.

    This is a pretty neat idea actually. However I would most certain be
    against calling the pre-Paladins of Avani "Jannisary". This term is a
    corruption of the Turkic "yeni cheri" meaning "new army" and
    specifically refers to the slave-based infantry corps of the Ottoman
    Sultanate.

    Other than that though, it sounds cool. Any idea of the class features?

    I also agree that we should not feel compelled by the assumptions of the
    basic 3e Rules. The setting of BR needs to be preserved as unmolested as
    possible and that could be hard if we are just to use what is in effect
    the Greyhawk setting.

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

  4. #34
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Another Question: If you're a blooded elf or dwarf or what ever apart from human, what is your favourite class then? The racial or is this overwritten by his bloodline?
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #35
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
    Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:07 AM

    > Another Question: If you`re a blooded elf or dwarf or what
    > ever apart from human, what is your favourite class then? The
    > racial or is this overwritten by his bloodline?

    I`m rather inclined to embrace Gary`s solution for them, and say both. So a
    Dwarf who is a scion of Brenna would have both Fighter and Rogue as a
    Favored Class.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  6. #36
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    If there were no such things as 1e and 2e, then Paladins could easily have
    been left to a prestige class. Indeed, it would be simple. But since they
    were present as mult-classing end runs in previous editions, they live on.

    As it might better read:
    Any character who undergoes the initiation into a religious order is allowed
    to select from that order`s special list of feats. These feats can only be
    learned from the religious institution in question. Lists will vary from
    faith to faith. The list for Haelyn might look like this:
    Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura
    of Courage, Smite Evil, Smite Chaos, Remove Disease, Turn Undead, Special
    Mount.
    You can only take alignment based feats if you have the opposing alignment.
    Only good characters can detect or smite evil, &c.

    You would be recognized as a member of the Church as any normal paladin
    would, and your behavior must be exempary, or they won`t teach you new
    feats. Clerics are assumed to have taken the orders in question. There is
    no game prerequisites, anyone of good faith can ask to join holy orders.
    Holy order based feats are typically Charisma based (as written in the PHB)

    Obviously only fighters with their many bonus feats could emulate the PHB
    paladin, but why shouldn`t clerics of Haelyn go be able to take Aura of
    Courage and Smite Evil as feats? Obviously they already have Turn Undead.
    Consider rogues taking holy orders for Sera or Eloele and in effect being
    paladins. Of course their list of feats would differ.

    Is this not so elegant as to cause everyone to rip page 42 right out of the
    PHB?

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  7. #37
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    Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-09-22 19.57:

    > Any character who undergoes the initiation into a religious order is allowed
    > to select from that order`s special list of feats. These feats can only be
    > learned from the religious institution in question. Lists will vary from
    > faith to faith. The list for Haelyn might look like this:
    > Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura
    > of Courage, Smite Evil, Smite Chaos, Remove Disease, Turn Undead, Special
    > Mount.

    This goes agains the normal limitations on feats - that they cannot get
    better with levels. Lay on Hands and Smite Evil both do. But that is really
    a minor point - call these feats Champion Feats and say that Champion Feats
    can do these things, and it can work just fine.

    A sixth level fighter gets 8 feats - almost enough to purchase the nine
    class abilites of a sixth level paladin. Of course the paladin also gets
    three feats to do whatever he pleases with. A higher-level fighter would
    have to advance 12 levels to get the 9 class abilities of a sixth level
    paladin, so it would not be the same. It is like building a monk out of a
    collection of feats - It can be done, but not using existing classes.
    Perhaps if you awarded extra feats for accepting limitations like the
    paladin`s code of honor and inability to multiclass.

    Feats are simply not intended for building new classes with. You can do it,
    but then you have to meddle with the existing class system - and you`re
    halfway to creating a new game already. Still, for a really wild game, I
    suppose this could work.

    /Carl

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  8. #38
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 03:57 PM 9/21/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

    >However I would most certain be against calling the pre-Paladins of Avani
    >"Jannisary". This term is a corruption of the Turkic "yeni cheri"
    >meaning "new army" and specifically refers to the slave-based infantry
    >corps of the Ottoman Sultanate.

    Right. "Jannisary" was just the first thing that popped into my head
    regarding Mid East warriors. I don`t think I`d use it because of the
    cultural-specific issues you note (though a fighter-like "slave warrior"
    would be cool....) Other terms like "dervish" similarly call up religious
    and/or cultural images, though that might not be bad for a pre-paladin
    character class. I`d probably just go with something a bit more general
    like "desert warrior" for simplicity, though.

    >Other than that though, it sounds cool. Any idea of the class features?

    I hadn`t really gotten as far as specific class abilities, but in general I
    think this kind of thing could be interpreted as sort of the 3e version of
    2e kits. They could be plugged in on top of a base fighter or ranger and
    determine things like their class skills, bonus feat choices, and spell
    lists if appropriate. For instance, a squire "kit" could look like this:

    Class skills: Animal Handling, Knowledge (nobility), Ride, Swim, etc.
    Bonus feats: Skill Focus (ride), Ride by Attack, etc.

    In general, however, what I`d prefer is a whole system of designing
    character classes so that if one wanted to make up a class there`d be some
    rhyme and reason to it. That`s what I`ve been fiddling around with in some
    of my tweaks to 3e, but I`ll need to put a lot more work into it before it
    will make a lot of sense.

    Gary

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  9. #39
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    > Right. "Jannisary" was just the first thing that popped into
    > my head regarding Mid East warriors. I don`t think I`d use
    > it because of the cultural-specific issues you note (though a
    > fighter-like "slave warrior" would be cool....) Other terms
    > like "dervish" similarly call up religious and/or cultural
    > images, though that might not be bad for a pre-paladin
    > character class. I`d probably just go with something a bit
    > more general like "desert warrior" for simplicity, though.

    I like the idea that there are a few kinds of "paladin of avani". There
    are the near-estatic desert-dwelling faithful who believe that the Sea
    of Grass is a testing place for the faithful, and then there are the
    city-dwelling cultured and rational faithful who believe in Avani`s
    message of virtue and mercy. They`d be quite different interpretations
    of the goddess even within the same region. Perhaps there are "dervish"
    followers of Avani and also "sipahi" followers of Avani.

    I rather like the idea of slave-warriors myself. I always wanted to play
    a `mameluke` (named for the Egyptian caste of slave-soldiers) in
    Zakhara, particularly one who had been expelled and had his tattos
    removed (ouch). I`m not sure exactly where to put them though - the
    Khinasi didn`t do a lot of empire-building so I suspect that the `yeni
    cheri` idea of forcibly conscripting non-Khinasi and then converting
    them to the Avanite faith would not make a lot of sense. Perhaps the
    Sultan of Djafra has previosuly invested a lot of responsibility in his
    slave-class administrators and soldiers and so has been easy to
    undermine since these "pillars of the community" are throroughly
    corrupted by graft and special interests (like the yeni cheri class in
    the later Sultanate was).

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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  10. #40
    Senior Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Kenneth:
    > If there were no such things as 1e and 2e, then Paladins
    > could easily have been left to a prestige class. Indeed, it
    > would be simple. But since they were present as
    > mult-classing end runs in previous editions, they live on.

    Wasn`t the Paladin of Basic D&D (the Cyclopedia edition or whatever, I
    am afraid that I am not a D&D archaeologist) essentially a "prestige
    class" for high level Lawful Fighters to progress into?

    That is certainly a good argument to make Paladin a prestige class.

    I think however that if the Paladin was to become a prestige class then
    the Blackguard probably needs something a bit more as well, IMO.

    --
    John Machin
    (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
    -----------------------------------
    "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
    Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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    "Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius

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