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Thread: New Multi-Classing Rule.
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09-20-2002, 04:05 AM #31
Gary:
<snip!>
I am fine with having rules enshrined since I consider all rules to,
ultimately, be flexible. If it is a rule like this it justs means that
this is the normal average result. It is more of a guideline on
character creation - if you want a stock-standard PC then follow the
"rules" to the letter, if prefer something a bit (or a lot) different
then you break the rules (with your DMs consent of course).
I actually think "rules" are a bad term for character creation
guidelines personally, especially since I regularly ask my DMs
permission to break them myself.
Kenneth has a nice analogy for this subject featuring roadmaps and
bush-bashing and bears, but I`ll let him talk about that :)
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-20-2002, 12:02 PM #32
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:44 PM
> Kenneth has a nice analogy for this subject featuring roadmaps and
> bush-bashing and bears, but I`ll let him talk about that :)
My analogy follows. It concerns what I was mentioning yesterday, that a
match between setting and character. Given our knowledge of the Khinasi
culture, its easy to imagine how to play a Khinasi wizard. Likewise a
Brecht rogue. Problems come along when when a character concept isn`t well
supported by setting knowledge. Hence, we need a map of the setting
(metaphorically). When I start talking about several of the Khinasi wizards
or Brecht rogues I have in my game, readers will easily begin to match that
to the game information. When I start talking about Khinasi druids and
barbarians living out among the wastes, readers will see the connections,
but walk away thinking that I`m going somewhere a little different than
most, but haven`t stretched things to the breaking point. When I start
talking about the many LG paladins of Haelyn in Vosgaard (Teodor Profiev)
with the Blood of Azrai, I`m now into the realm of what are generally
prohibited characters. The very notion of this character poses questions
which Anuirean priests of Sera and Khinasi wizards don`t. For such a
character to work, some additional character building hurdles have to be
crossed. So, bloodline, class, and culture should be considered as a
complex of linked identities.
Using my "road less traveled" analogy, the common character combination is
the road more travelled, and its a well marked road. Furthermore, you
probabaly know the way. Rare, means you need a map, and you should plan to
have enough provisions, there may not be a place to stop and buy rations on
the way. Prohibited means you need an atlas. You have mountains to cross,
and by the way, look out for bears.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-21-2002, 04:15 AM #33
Gary:
> Actually, I wouldn`t mind a paladin-like set of "core"
> classes with much more general class abilities.... more of a
> fighter with an emphasis than the paladin/cleric crossbreed
> it is now. "Squire" or something to that effect for the
> knightly version of the paladin of Anduiras described as a
> prestige class, "Sailor" for Nesirie, "Jannisary" or
> something like it for the paladins prestige class of Avani.
> All of those would be based on the fighter, but with various
> tweaks, a different list of feats to chose from, different
> skill lists, etc. The paladin-prestige classes, of course,
> wouldn`t require someone to take on those particular "core"
> classes (nor should any prestige class) but they would be the
> most apt "background" classes for those paladins.
This is a pretty neat idea actually. However I would most certain be
against calling the pre-Paladins of Avani "Jannisary". This term is a
corruption of the Turkic "yeni cheri" meaning "new army" and
specifically refers to the slave-based infantry corps of the Ottoman
Sultanate.
Other than that though, it sounds cool. Any idea of the class features?
I also agree that we should not feel compelled by the assumptions of the
basic 3e Rules. The setting of BR needs to be preserved as unmolested as
possible and that could be hard if we are just to use what is in effect
the Greyhawk setting.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
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"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-21-2002, 11:07 AM #34
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09-21-2002, 03:09 PM #35
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:07 AM
> Another Question: If you`re a blooded elf or dwarf or what
> ever apart from human, what is your favourite class then? The
> racial or is this overwritten by his bloodline?
I`m rather inclined to embrace Gary`s solution for them, and say both. So a
Dwarf who is a scion of Brenna would have both Fighter and Rogue as a
Favored Class.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-22-2002, 06:50 PM #36
If there were no such things as 1e and 2e, then Paladins could easily have
been left to a prestige class. Indeed, it would be simple. But since they
were present as mult-classing end runs in previous editions, they live on.
As it might better read:
Any character who undergoes the initiation into a religious order is allowed
to select from that order`s special list of feats. These feats can only be
learned from the religious institution in question. Lists will vary from
faith to faith. The list for Haelyn might look like this:
Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura
of Courage, Smite Evil, Smite Chaos, Remove Disease, Turn Undead, Special
Mount.
You can only take alignment based feats if you have the opposing alignment.
Only good characters can detect or smite evil, &c.
You would be recognized as a member of the Church as any normal paladin
would, and your behavior must be exempary, or they won`t teach you new
feats. Clerics are assumed to have taken the orders in question. There is
no game prerequisites, anyone of good faith can ask to join holy orders.
Holy order based feats are typically Charisma based (as written in the PHB)
Obviously only fighters with their many bonus feats could emulate the PHB
paladin, but why shouldn`t clerics of Haelyn go be able to take Aura of
Courage and Smite Evil as feats? Obviously they already have Turn Undead.
Consider rogues taking holy orders for Sera or Eloele and in effect being
paladins. Of course their list of feats would differ.
Is this not so elegant as to cause everyone to rip page 42 right out of the
PHB?
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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09-22-2002, 06:56 PM #37
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Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM> wrote at 02-09-22 19.57:
> Any character who undergoes the initiation into a religious order is allowed
> to select from that order`s special list of feats. These feats can only be
> learned from the religious institution in question. Lists will vary from
> faith to faith. The list for Haelyn might look like this:
> Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura
> of Courage, Smite Evil, Smite Chaos, Remove Disease, Turn Undead, Special
> Mount.
This goes agains the normal limitations on feats - that they cannot get
better with levels. Lay on Hands and Smite Evil both do. But that is really
a minor point - call these feats Champion Feats and say that Champion Feats
can do these things, and it can work just fine.
A sixth level fighter gets 8 feats - almost enough to purchase the nine
class abilites of a sixth level paladin. Of course the paladin also gets
three feats to do whatever he pleases with. A higher-level fighter would
have to advance 12 levels to get the 9 class abilities of a sixth level
paladin, so it would not be the same. It is like building a monk out of a
collection of feats - It can be done, but not using existing classes.
Perhaps if you awarded extra feats for accepting limitations like the
paladin`s code of honor and inability to multiclass.
Feats are simply not intended for building new classes with. You can do it,
but then you have to meddle with the existing class system - and you`re
halfway to creating a new game already. Still, for a really wild game, I
suppose this could work.
/Carl
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09-22-2002, 10:46 PM #38
At 03:57 PM 9/21/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:
>However I would most certain be against calling the pre-Paladins of Avani
>"Jannisary". This term is a corruption of the Turkic "yeni cheri"
>meaning "new army" and specifically refers to the slave-based infantry
>corps of the Ottoman Sultanate.
Right. "Jannisary" was just the first thing that popped into my head
regarding Mid East warriors. I don`t think I`d use it because of the
cultural-specific issues you note (though a fighter-like "slave warrior"
would be cool....) Other terms like "dervish" similarly call up religious
and/or cultural images, though that might not be bad for a pre-paladin
character class. I`d probably just go with something a bit more general
like "desert warrior" for simplicity, though.
>Other than that though, it sounds cool. Any idea of the class features?
I hadn`t really gotten as far as specific class abilities, but in general I
think this kind of thing could be interpreted as sort of the 3e version of
2e kits. They could be plugged in on top of a base fighter or ranger and
determine things like their class skills, bonus feat choices, and spell
lists if appropriate. For instance, a squire "kit" could look like this:
Class skills: Animal Handling, Knowledge (nobility), Ride, Swim, etc.
Bonus feats: Skill Focus (ride), Ride by Attack, etc.
In general, however, what I`d prefer is a whole system of designing
character classes so that if one wanted to make up a class there`d be some
rhyme and reason to it. That`s what I`ve been fiddling around with in some
of my tweaks to 3e, but I`ll need to put a lot more work into it before it
will make a lot of sense.
Gary
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09-23-2002, 03:49 AM #39
> Right. "Jannisary" was just the first thing that popped into
> my head regarding Mid East warriors. I don`t think I`d use
> it because of the cultural-specific issues you note (though a
> fighter-like "slave warrior" would be cool....) Other terms
> like "dervish" similarly call up religious and/or cultural
> images, though that might not be bad for a pre-paladin
> character class. I`d probably just go with something a bit
> more general like "desert warrior" for simplicity, though.
I like the idea that there are a few kinds of "paladin of avani". There
are the near-estatic desert-dwelling faithful who believe that the Sea
of Grass is a testing place for the faithful, and then there are the
city-dwelling cultured and rational faithful who believe in Avani`s
message of virtue and mercy. They`d be quite different interpretations
of the goddess even within the same region. Perhaps there are "dervish"
followers of Avani and also "sipahi" followers of Avani.
I rather like the idea of slave-warriors myself. I always wanted to play
a `mameluke` (named for the Egyptian caste of slave-soldiers) in
Zakhara, particularly one who had been expelled and had his tattos
removed (ouch). I`m not sure exactly where to put them though - the
Khinasi didn`t do a lot of empire-building so I suspect that the `yeni
cheri` idea of forcibly conscripting non-Khinasi and then converting
them to the Avanite faith would not make a lot of sense. Perhaps the
Sultan of Djafra has previosuly invested a lot of responsibility in his
slave-class administrators and soldiers and so has been easy to
undermine since these "pillars of the community" are throroughly
corrupted by graft and special interests (like the yeni cheri class in
the later Sultanate was).
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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09-23-2002, 03:49 AM #40
Kenneth:
> If there were no such things as 1e and 2e, then Paladins
> could easily have been left to a prestige class. Indeed, it
> would be simple. But since they were present as
> mult-classing end runs in previous editions, they live on.
Wasn`t the Paladin of Basic D&D (the Cyclopedia edition or whatever, I
am afraid that I am not a D&D archaeologist) essentially a "prestige
class" for high level Lawful Fighters to progress into?
That is certainly a good argument to make Paladin a prestige class.
I think however that if the Paladin was to become a prestige class then
the Blackguard probably needs something a bit more as well, IMO.
--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
************************************************** **************************
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with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.John 'Trithemius' Machin
The Other John From Dunedin (now in Canberra)
"Power performs the Miracle." - Johannes Trithemius
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