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  1. #1
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Here`s a new version of the multi-classing rules I`ll be using. The new
    version goes like this:

    Provoking Multi-Class XP Penalties

    Every character gets a Favored Class, a Preferred Class and an Advanced
    Class. Character levels taken outside of those three categories provoke a
    cumulative 10% XP penalty.

    Favored Class works exactly how it does in the standard rules. Humans may
    choose their Favored Class, while other races have one chosen for them, and
    that class does not count towards multi-class XP penalties.

    Preferred Class: Preferred Class works for characters of all races the same
    way Favored Class works for humans. That is, any character can pick a
    Preferred Class and levels of that class don`t count towards multi-class XP
    penalties. A Preferred Class can not be a prestige class. (I`m kind of
    debating this last restriction, since in the long run I don`t think it`ll
    make that much of a difference if a Preferred Class is also a prestige
    class, allowing the character to have a single core class and two prestige
    classes.)

    Advanced Class: In the current 3e rules, levels taken in any prestige
    classes do not count towards multi-class XP penalties. A character of high
    enough level (around 8th or so) can usually qualify for several prestige
    classes, taking a few levels here and there in a way that would otherwise
    provoke a multi-class penalty. When fiddling around with character
    progressions using the core multi-class rules, I found that a character
    could take 1 or 2 levels in just about any character class I wanted, and
    after a while qualify for enough prestige classes similar enough to the
    core class that it effectively destroys much point in having a favored
    class or multi-class penalty system at all. A human barbarian 3/fighter
    2/rogue 2 can take a level as a Gladiator, a few Ghostwalker levels, a
    level or two as a Devoted Defender, etc. without incurring any penalties,
    effectively giving them unlimited access to (arguably more powerful
    versions) of the core classes without the kinds of restrictions in place on
    lower powered character classes. So I`ve added the Advanced Class
    category, which replaces the rule that excludes all prestige classes from
    multi-classing penalties. Using this option a character can have a single
    prestige class that does not count towards a multi-class XP penalty, but
    any additional levels in a second (third, fourth, or more) prestige class
    do earn a penalty.


    Paying Multi-Class XP Penalties

    These class qualifications fit into a change in the way the multi-classing
    XP penalties work. Instead of a 20% penalty for taking levels in each
    non-favored character class that is 2 or more steps away from one
    another. An elf fighter 3/rogue 1, for example. Using these optional
    rules any levels taken in a class that isn`t designated a Favored,
    Preferred or Advanced Class provoke a 10% XP penalty per level. (At first
    I went with a 5% penalty per level since it fits into the "base 20" nature
    of 3e, but I found that a very slight penalty to pay and 10% works just as
    well.) So a human character can still be a Fighter 6/Rogue 3/Ghostwalker 4
    but if s/he takes on a fourth class then there`s a 10% penalty for each
    level taken in that additional class.


    Multi-Classing Feats

    The other major addition is that one can take a feat which I`m calling (in
    a startling burst of imagination) "Additional Preferred Class" which allows
    a character to--you guessed it--take on an additional preferred class that
    does not incur an multi-classing XP penalty. The class in question must be
    chosen when the feat is taken. I thought this was a heady innovation until
    I described it to a couple of players in my group who informed me that
    something very similar appears in the Forgotten Realms D20 text. Oh, well.

    This feat does force kind of a weird situation in which characters may wind
    up paying an XP penalty for one or two levels before they get access to a
    feat slot. A Ftr3/Rog3/Wiz3 who takes on a fourth class at level 10th and
    11th level will wind up paying a 10% and then a 20% penalty for during
    those two levels until s/he reaches 12th level and can take that feat,
    while a Ftr3/Rog4/Wiz4 could just take that 12th level in a fourth class
    and take the feat at the same time, avoiding any penalty. That`s a bit
    inorganic. Of course, using the standard rules the same 10th level
    character is going to either pay 20% for taking on a fourth class or 0% (if
    it is a prestige class) until the character levels that fourth class up to
    level 3 where the penalty goes away, but then the 20% penalty kicks in
    again as soon as that class (or any of the others) go out of sync with any
    of the others. It`s not perfect, but I like it better then the current
    rules, so I`m going with this.

    I`m also considering another feat that I`m "Jack of All Trades." (I know
    that conflicts with the name of an existing feat, but I`ve never liked that
    one, so this will replace it.) This feat would reduce XP multi-class
    penalties by half (to 5% per level rather than 10%) so if someone wanted to
    play a character who had character levels all over the place they could do
    so while incurring a lower overall penalty without having to burn 2+
    feats. Since the Favored, Preferred and Advanced Class options are
    available I don`t think this feat would be used very often, but you never know.

    Gary

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  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    My players would no doubt favor such a system, I don`t give blooded humans
    the choice of any Favored Class. Blooded humans have a favored class
    determied by their bloodline (except Azrai, who still gets the choice).
    This limitation and a skill bonus are the only impact bloodline has on
    class.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #3
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:49 PM 8/22/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >My players would no doubt favor such a system, I don`t give blooded humans
    >the choice of any Favored Class. Blooded humans have a favored class
    >determied by their bloodline (except Azrai, who still gets the
    >choice). This limitation and a skill bonus are the only impact bloodline
    >has on class.

    That`s an interesting option. I`ve been considering allowing the favored
    class to have a couple of options. Cerilian elves, for instance, might
    have wizard or sorcerer as a favored class, just as an example. Something
    like that. Having three categories of classes that don`t provoke
    multi-classing XP penalties is a lot, though, so I don`t want to add
    another category. I`d rather have them fit into one of those three, but it
    seems perfectly sensible that if one includes something like an
    Awnsheghlien prestige class that those with Azrai`s bloodline and the
    bloodform blood ability shouldn`t have to pay a penalty for leveling up in
    that class.

    Gary

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  4. #4
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    I allow for my players to freely multiclass as long as it fits through role-playing and/or their background. This makes for greater role-playing with my players getting more involved in their characters. If something happens to a dwarf fighter (say Moradin comes to him) and he wants to become a paladin or a cleric, I would allow that without penalty.

    I did come across one problem with one of players where it did not fit. He was a human barbarian and wanted a better will save so he wanted to take a level of cleric (which gives +2 will save and first level spells) instead of the feat that gives +2 will. I did not allow that since it wasn't within the spirit of his character (he was just trying to min-max)

    Just my two cents

  5. #5
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    Certainly it's a nice system, Gary. But are you really annoyed with multi-class characters? I find this one of the greatest improvements over 2º edition. Of course, sometimes the players abuse: one in my group had a fighter character and he wanted to fight with two-weapons; instead of taking the feats he wanted to take one level of ranger... (the first level of ranger is very strong, the others, however...). I said no, like the history on the post by Crumbiness. But this are exceptions. In overall I think the rules for multiclassing are good. At least with the core classes.
    With prestige classes I agree with you. It's very strange (to not say ridiculous) not having a penalty. Most of the prestige, like the cavalier, have a roleplay that imply much devotion from the character. Changing from Knight of the Chalice to Thief-Acrobat to Animal Lord without any penalty? Of course the DM can prevent this with roleplaying, but I think that rules exist just to do this job. I guess I will use the "Advanced Class" rule.

  6. #6
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:48 PM 8/24/2002 +0200, Sir Justine wrote:

    >Certainly it`s a nice system, Gary. But are you really annoyed with
    >multi-class characters?

    The thing I dislike most about the current multi-classing rule is the way
    the penalty kicks in when class levels go out of sync with one another,
    despite the actual number of extra classes, so a 2/3/2/3 character is fine
    while a 2/3/3/1 character is not.

    Actually, I`d probably get rid of multi-class penalties entirely if I
    didn`t kind of like the favored class aspect of the system. It makes sense
    that dwarves would favor fighter as a class. That depends pretty much on
    the campaign, of course, and I`m starting to lean more towards just doing
    away with the multi-class penalties entirely, but barring that I think this
    kind of thing works a bit better.

    >With prestige classes I agree with you. It`s very strange (to not say
    >ridiculous) not having a penalty. Most of the prestige, like the cavalier,
    >have a roleplay that imply much devotion from the character. Changing from
    >Knight of the Chalice to Thief-Acrobat to Animal Lord without any penalty?
    >Of course the DM can prevent this with roleplaying, but I think that rules
    >exist just to do this job. I guess I will use the "Advanced Class" rule.

    There are many problems IMO with prestige classes, and this multi-classing
    option really only addresses one of them, but in general I like it as a
    possible solution to some of the weirdnesses involved in that particular
    aspect of 3e. Let me know how it works out for you.

    Gary

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  7. #7
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    This monday I started a new campaign and I will use your multi class rules. I showed then to my players and we think they are better.
    So, just to confirm what you said, in your system, excluding the feats you mentioned, the maximum number of classes a character can have without penalty is two plus one prestige?
    As an extra, here are the favored classes I use in my Birthright campaign:
    Anuiren - Cleric
    Brecht - Rogue
    Khinasi - Wizard
    Rjurik - Ranger
    Vos - Barbarian
    Elf - Sorcerer
    Dwarf - Fighter
    Halfling - Bard

    PS: Today (08/27) is my birthday! Happy birthday to me! :)

  8. #8
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:25 PM 8/27/2002 +0200, Sir Justine wrote:

    >This monday I started a new campaign and I will use your multi class
    >rules. I showed then to my players and we think they are better. So, just
    >to confirm what you said, in your system, excluding the feats you
    >mentioned, the maximum number of classes a character can have without
    >penalty is two plus one prestige?

    Yes, that`s the gist of it. The preferred class might be a prestige class
    too depending on whether or not you want to allow that, so its possible for
    a character to have one class plus two prestige classes without provoking a
    multi-class XP penalty.

    >As an extra, here are the favored classes I use in my Birthright campaign:
    >Anuiren - Cleric
    >Brecht - Rogue
    >Khinasi - Wizard
    >Rjurik - Ranger
    >Vos - Barbarian
    >Elf - Sorcerer
    >Dwarf - Fighter
    >Halfling - Bard

    I kind of like preferred classes for various cultures, but for humans I
    think there should be more than one. Anuireans might have cleric or
    fighter, Rjurik could have ranger or druid, Khinasi could have wizard or
    paladin. Something like that.

    You might also want to include:

    Orog - Fighter
    Goblin - Rogue

    >PS: Today (08/27) is my birthday! Happy birthday to me! :)

    Happy BD!

    Gary

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  9. #9
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    Hello!

    Gary wrote:
    ...

    >> As an extra, here are the favored classes I use in my Birthright
    >> campaign:
    >> Anuiren - Cleric
    >> Brecht - Rogue
    >> Khinasi - Wizard
    >> Rjurik - Ranger
    >> Vos - Barbarian
    >> Elf - Sorcerer
    >> Dwarf - Fighter
    >> Halfling - Bard
    >
    > I kind of like preferred classes for various cultures, but for humans I
    > think there should be more than one. Anuireans might have cleric or
    > fighter, Rjurik could have ranger or druid, Khinasi could have wizard or
    > paladin. Something like that.
    > You might also want to include:
    > Orog - Fighter
    > Goblin - Rogue
    >
    >> PS: Today (08/27) is my birthday! Happy birthday to me! :)
    >
    > Happy BD!
    > Gary

    Anuirean I would say Cleric (of Haelyn) or Paladin (of Haelyn) as Haelyn
    is the Patron of Anuire.
    Brecht would be rather Aristrocrat (Guilder) than rogue (or both)
    Rjurik Ranger or Druid
    Khinasi Wizard or Aristocrat (Lord)

    Goblins should be divided into their subtypes. A goblin (goblin) is more
    likely to be rogue, but a goblin (hobgoblin) or goblin (bugbear)
    certainly could tend to warrior.

    And happy Birthday!
    bye
    Michael

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  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    As I mentioned earlier, I use favored classes by bloodline, not culture.

    Andurias-
    Fighter favored class
    Knowledge (Law) is a class skill, and bonus +1 to +4 based on bloodline
    alignment must be non-chaotic

    Reynir-
    Ranger or Druid favored class
    Wilderness Lore is a class skill, and bonus +1 to +4
    any alignment

    Brenna-
    Rogue favored class
    Appraise is a class skill, +1 to +4
    any alignment

    Basaïa-
    Wizard favored class
    Scry, Spellcraft, or any one Knowledge skill is a class skill, +1 to +4
    any non-chaotic alignment

    Masela-
    Cleric is class skill
    Intuit Direction is a class skill, +1 to +4
    any alignment

    Vorynn-
    Wizard or Sorcerer favored class
    Spellcraft is a class skill, +1 to +4
    any alignment

    Azrai-
    favored class is determined by race, as PHB
    Bluff is a class skill, +1 to +4
    alignment is any non-good

    I also include a backround class. Everyone can take a starting level as an
    Aristocrat, Expert, or Rogue. I encourage wizards and clerics to consider
    expert as their backround class. Characters have no penalty regarding their
    backround class and may level up in them without penalty. When converting
    most NPC`s from the books, I convert fighter over as 2/3`s aristocrat, and
    1/3 fighter.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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