Help with the Gorgon Please

[ConjurerDragon]

Hello Milos!
There is a reason. With the Birthright Boxed Set came several cards,
e.g. for Rhuobhe Manslayer, the Spider and THE GORGON. There he is
described as Fighter 25, Wizard 16 in 2 E D&D.
bye
Michael
***************

Milos Rasic wrote:

>Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
>he is Fighter only.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
>>[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of
>>brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG
>>Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:10 PM
>>To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>>Subject: Re: [12#85]
>>
>>
>>A_dark wrote:
>> I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a
>>powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or
>>less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others
>>are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the
>>Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).
>>
>>The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder
>>about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this
>>discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if
>>he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage.
>>Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.
>>
>>The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the
>>writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is
>>close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with
>>tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose,
>>the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped,
>>the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the
>>Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on
>>0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after
>>looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be
>>on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so
>>bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25
>>BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of
>>him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has
>>slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the
>>various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he
>>has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I
>>sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou ld not have
>>reached at least 500 score.
>>
>>Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There
>>are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal
>>components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the
>>normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I
>>think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the
>>Stonecrowns in his castle`s dungeon, if memory serves, there
>>is a circular corridor with a naga)
>>
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>
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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

>A_dark wrote:
>...
>The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose, the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped, the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25 BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou
> ld not have reached at least 500 score.
>
You remember wrong. He is NOT having children only to slay them. When he
was yet unaware of his long life great bloodability he planned to have
heirs to continue his line (see Warlord of the Stonecrowns). He tried to
make the POWERFUL, not because he wished to slay them... Remember: He
fed the Warlock personally with flesh.Only when he noticed that he did
not age he saw that heirs which will never inherit something because the
Gorgon lives forever will become dangerous. Even more so than far
enemys..THEN he decided to slay them all.
bye
Michael

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[A_dark]

So what? Instead of starting the harvesting of bloodlines in 100HC, he started it at 500HC? He still had 1000 years and the fact that he harvests bloodlines to increase his own is undisputable.

Anyways, the point is that he has at least a score of 500.

[Lord Grave]

> At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>
> >Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says
> >that he is Fighter only.
>
> Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It
> merely omits his wizard levels, but still gives him one of
> the most developed system of sources in Cerilia....
> Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error since it
> doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
> description.
>

He would be TOOOO powerful as a mage. Maybe he owns the sources and from
time to time finds puppet wizards, like Callador long ago, to use them
for him. Or maybe he can cast realm spells, but his stony form prevents
him from casting conventional spells which require more dexterity?

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[Lord Grave]

> Is it a good idea to omit the Gorgon`s wizard levels? Maybe.
> Maybe not. Depends on how you want to play him--and the
> rest of the triumvirate of evil, for that matter. One could
> go with either version of the character--I personally prefer
> the original--but this contention that BE "clearly states the
> Gorgon is a fighter only" is incorrect. Nowhere in BE does
> it say anything like that, and it`s just as plausible (IMO more
> plausible) that it is an error rather than an intentional change.


BE doesn`t describe classes and levels of Awnsheghlien, for that matter.
It only describes their saving throws. For the Gorgon, it says: saves as
F25. For me, this is good enough reason to consider him Fighter-only.

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[geeman]

At 10:13 PM 6/13/2002 +0200, A_dark wrote:

>Anyways, the point is that he has at least a score of 500.

At a certain point increasing one`s bloodline becomes less important. When
one can spend enough RP to assure the success of all your actions in a
domain turn with RP left over then it becomes less important to have a
greater bloodline strength score. Of course, one could still get into a
bidding war with other regents and want to accumulate RP in order to assure
your success even when opposed, but someone like the Gorgon who`s been
around for 1,500 years would likely have built up a massive RP pool anyway.

So the question is, why would someone want a bloodline strength score over
100? What happens when BSS reaches 100?

A bloodline in the triple digits might be required to advance into
godhood. A high BSS could grant additional powers beyond those listed in
the Rulebook. If RP are useful for something other than assuring the
success of domain actions, "paying" troops and increasing one`s own
bloodline strength then it makes sense to continue accumulating them beyond
what one could use in a domain turn.

One interesting possibility is that 100 is the maximum BSS. After that the
character enters a sort of bloodline strength version of the "Epic Level"
of play. The Gorgon is already an epic level character, so it makes sense
that he might want to accumulate a higher bloodline score if it gave him
additional epic level traits. That would make some sense of the "100+"
entry in his description, and might mesh well with the direction the 3e
system appears to be going.

Gary

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[Lord Grave]

>
> > Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his
> > wizard
> levels
> > and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be
> the first time
> > something was left out, nor even the most glaring
> omission in the BR
> > published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy
> because it
> > is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)
> >
> > Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is
> very arguably
> > the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake
> > can be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The
> > Gorgon is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I
> > think the scale of any such omission is about equal.
>
> The Bible analogy is too extreme for what can simply be
> explained as an error in the text. There are gobs of
> mistakes in the BR materials, the fallibility of the authors
> and editors isn`t such a big deal that it merits comparison
> to the "son of God" IMO. I`m not a particularly religous
> person, in fact I`m rather agnostic, but leaping straight to
> an analogy that references an issue that billions of people
> consider the core of their theology to make a point about a
> supplemental rulebook in a RPG campaign setting? Too much.

Let`s not start a religious argument. It is enough to say that
son-of-god-problem is the most important in life for some, while RPG is
much more important to others.

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[Lord Grave]

>
> Hello Milos!
> There is a reason. With the Birthright Boxed Set came several
> cards, e.g. for Rhuobhe Manslayer, the Spider and THE GORGON.
> There he is described as Fighter 25, Wizard 16 in 2 E D&D. bye Michael

As F25/W16 Dual-Class in AD&D, he would be even weakened. With these
levels in D&D, multiclass, he would be invincible, he would be a level
41 character...not bad :->

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[Lord Grave]

> >Anyways, the point is that he has at least a score of 500.
>
> At a certain point increasing one`s bloodline becomes less
> important. When one can spend enough RP to assure the
> success of all your actions in a domain turn with RP left
> over then it becomes less important to have a greater
> bloodline strength score. Of course, one could still get
> into a bidding war with other regents and want to accumulate
> RP in order to assure your success even when opposed, but
> someone like the Gorgon who`s been around for 1,500 years
> would likely have built up a massive RP pool anyway.

That is the way a player thinks, a sane one for that matter. The Gorgon
just wants more and more Blood, and more and more powers. Is there a
limit to number of Blood Abilities?

> A bloodline in the triple digits might be required to advance
> into godhood. A high BSS could grant additional powers
> beyond those listed in the Rulebook. If RP are useful for
> something other than assuring the success of domain actions,
> "paying" troops and increasing one`s own bloodline strength
> then it makes sense to continue accumulating them beyond what
> one could use in a domain turn.

In fact, the Gorgon is a demi-god. He has a church which worships him,
and he grants spells as all other dieties.


> One interesting possibility is that 100 is the maximum BSS.
> After that the character enters a sort of bloodline strength
> version of the "Epic Level" of play. The Gorgon is already
> an epic level character, so it makes sense that he might want
> to accumulate a higher bloodline score if it gave him
> additional epic level traits. That would make some sense of
> the "100+" entry in his description, and might mesh well with
> the direction the 3e system appears to be going.
>

Again, there is the problem of "Gorgon wanting" and "player wanting".
The player thinks only of what is useful for his domain, but wouldn`t
you want more if you were really your character?

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[geeman]

At 10:47 PM 6/13/2002 +0200, Milos Rasic wrote:

>BE doesn`t describe classes and levels of Awnsheghlien, for that
>matter. It only describes their saving throws. For the Gorgon, it says:
>saves as F25. For me, this is good enough reason to consider him Fighter-only.

Huh.... That`s interesting. If you take a look at the 2e saving throw
tables, a F25`s saves are all equal to or superior to that have a W16, so
including the W16 under the "saves as" description would be redundant. Of
course, it still doesn`t explain the lack of a spell list--though a spell
list is also lacking on the cardsheet that came with the boxed set--but
does make that omission sensible.

Gary

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