Results 21 to 30 of 44
Thread: Help with the Gorgon Please
-
06-12-2002, 10:45 AM #21
Are we all completely missing the point of the Birthright rules?! When Rich Baker developed them he was using the core fundamental rules from 2nd Edition AD&D, those rules specifically state that they are guidelines, not gospel.
It doesn't matter whether The Gorgon has a lack of dexterity in his claws or even in that narly stone butt of his (grin), at the end of the day it's all up to us.
I do agree with the Gorgon too powerful side of the argument though. When you take a close look at the Awnsheghlein in the game, it's as if Mr Baker tacked them on at the end of his work week.
If you put one of the established Awnsheghlein in the hands of a PC, they would go sick. Just imagine if you had a spitefull DM on your hands (oh wait, that's me).
Way too much game imbalance.
-
06-12-2002, 11:10 AM #22
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
- Posts
- 144
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).
The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage. Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.
The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the writer's part. If you ask me, the Gorgon's Bloodline is close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose, the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped, the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25 BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he would not have reached at least 500 score.
Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns in his castle's dungeon, if memory serves, there is a circular corridor with a naga)
-
06-12-2002, 11:57 AM #23
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- Location
- Belgrade, Serbia
- Posts
- 152
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
he is Fighter only.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of
> brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:10 PM
> To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: Re: [12#85]
>
>
> A_dark wrote:
> I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a
> powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or
> less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others
> are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the
> Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).
>
> The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder
> about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this
> discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if
> he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage.
> Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.
>
> The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the
> writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is
> close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with
> tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose,
> the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped,
> the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the
> Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on
> 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after
> looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be
> on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so
> bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25
> BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of
> him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has
> slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the
> various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he
> has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I
> sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou ld not have
> reached at least 500 score.
>
> Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There
> are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal
> components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the
> normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I
> think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the
> Stonecrowns in his castle`s dungeon, if memory serves, there
> is a circular corridor with a naga)
>
> ************************************************** ************
> **************
> The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
> To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
>
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-12-2002, 11:08 PM #24
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
- Posts
- 474
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 21:35, Milos Rasic wrote:
Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
he is Fighter only.
Yeah, I`m all for keeping him a straight warrior type too.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-12-2002, 11:46 PM #25
At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
>he is Fighter only.
Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed system of
sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
description.
Gary
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-13-2002, 12:20 AM #26
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
- Posts
- 474
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 09:38, Gary wrote:
At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
>he is Fighter only.
Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed system of
sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
description.
You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?
That would be like writing the Bible and just *forgetting* to mention
that Jesus was the son of God.
If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him
having any magely powers whatsoever.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-13-2002, 02:22 AM #27
At 10:20 AM 6/13/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:
> Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
> his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed
> system of
> sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
> since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
> description.
>
>You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
>justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
>completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?
>
>That would be like writing the Bible and just *forgetting* to mention that
>Jesus was the son of God.
>
>If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him having
>any magely powers whatsoever.
Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard levels
and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy because it
is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.) The other
side of the debate, of course, is that if the Gorgon has no wizard levels,
but per BE he somehow and for some reason developed a massive system of
source holdings, because all his source holdings remain in his BE
description. I think an accidental omission of his wizard levels is a more
likely explanation than that they intentionally changed the Gorgon, but
forgot to change any other aspect of the Gorgon`s domain. If it had been
an intentional and thought out change, surely they would have also taken
away his 70+ levels of source holdings, or is that part of the BE version
of Apocrypha?
Actually, what I think what might _really_ have happened was when Slade
wrote up BE he had somewhere in the back of his mind the idea that the
Gorgon-Raven-Magian "triumvirate of evil" were going to each represent an
aspect of the evil awnsheghlien with the Gorgon representing the physical
violence aspect, the Magian the mystical evil and the Raven bridging the
two, per the characterization stuff under the Raven`s description, but the
thinking never really went much beyond that paragraph, even at the editing
stage, so in the rush to go to press the Gorgon`s wizard levels weren`t
included.
Is it a good idea to omit the Gorgon`s wizard levels? Maybe. Maybe
not. Depends on how you want to play him--and the rest of the triumvirate
of evil, for that matter. One could go with either version of the
character--I personally prefer the original--but this contention that BE
"clearly states the Gorgon is a fighter only" is incorrect. Nowhere in BE
does it say anything like that, and it`s just as plausible (IMO more
plausible) that it is an error rather than an intentional change.
Gary
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-13-2002, 02:22 AM #28
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
- Posts
- 474
- Downloads
- 0
- Uploads
- 0
On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 11:24, Gary wrote:
Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard levels
and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy because it
is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)
Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is very arguably
the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake can
be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The Gorgon
is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I think the
scale of any such omission is about equal.
The massive system of source holdings means nothing - or perhaps
everything. It`s very easily an argument for no wizardly powers at all.
What ? Yes, there`s a rule that mentions that you can control sources
without being able to use them -- okay, then -- give me an example !
Hmmmm, ? Oh... I Know .... I Know ... the Gorgon !!
IF they forgot anything, it`s many more times likely that they forgot to
remove his sources. There`s no mention in the descriptive text of any
wizardly powers at all - not even a hint. But I don`t think they did
forget anything - they meant for those sources to be controlled rather
than uncontrolled.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-13-2002, 03:59 AM #29
> Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard
levels
> and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
> something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
> published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy
because it
> is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)
>
> Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is very arguably
> the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake can
> be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The Gorgon
> is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I think the
> scale of any such omission is about equal.
The Bible analogy is too extreme for what can simply be explained as an
error in the text. There are gobs of mistakes in the BR materials, the
fallibility of the authors and editors isn`t such a big deal that it merits
comparison to the "son of God" IMO. I`m not a particularly religous person,
in fact I`m rather agnostic, but leaping straight to an analogy that
references an issue that billions of people consider the core of their
theology to make a point about a supplemental rulebook in a RPG campaign
setting? Too much.
> The massive system of source holdings means nothing - or perhaps
> everything. It`s very easily an argument for no wizardly powers at all.
> What ? Yes, there`s a rule that mentions that you can control sources
> without being able to use them -- okay, then -- give me an example !
> Hmmmm, ? Oh... I Know .... I Know ... the Gorgon !!
The Tuarhieval SB also has a regent who controls source holdings without
having wizard levels, and there`s temple of Rournil in Khinasi that does as
well. The rules regarding source holdings, however, state that one cannot
create source holdings without wizard levels. That doesn`t mean the Gorgon
has to have wizard levels. He could have taken those holdings from a wizard
or wizards after they were created, and then he spent several hundred RP and
GB ruling them up. Another possibility is that he recently stolen them from
a very powerful wizard in his own realm. Or they could simply have made an
error in transcribing the character information.
If you`re going with a non-wizard version of the Gorgon, then I think the
best explanation is that he recently took his holdings from one or two very
powerful wizards in his domain. Otherwise one has to come up with a
plausible reason why he would dedicate so much time and effort to developing
one of the largest source domains in Cerilia. I still think it`s easier to
go with the wizard version of G rather than add additional background
material and history to him, but YMMV.
> IF they forgot anything, it`s many more times likely that they forgot to
> remove his sources. There`s no mention in the descriptive text of any
> wizardly powers at all - not even a hint. But I don`t think they did
> forget anything - they meant for those sources to be controlled rather
> than uncontrolled.
There are very few references to the Gorgon`s wizardly powers before BE
either, but there was no debate that he had them up until that text came
out. If they had really meant to change the character they would only have
to had to say so in the intro or something.
Gary
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
-
06-13-2002, 04:26 AM #30
>You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
>justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
>completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?
Stranger things have happened. Still, even the cardsheet from the BR box
doesn`t mention any spells, the Wizard 16 entry under Class/Levels is
all I have ever found to support him being a mage.
>If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him
>having any magely powers whatsoever.
Except a massive number of source holdings. The inconsistency is
enormous - the BE doesn`t mention magely powers at all, but gives an
all-fighter character the most extensive network of sources in Cerilia.
BAAAAD workmanship is one way of describing it.
There are many inconsistencies, and it boils down to this: Would YOU
like the Gorgon to be a mage in your campaign, or not?
************************************************** **********************
****
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks