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  1. #21
    Junior Member Mason's Avatar
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    Are we all completely missing the point of the Birthright rules?! When Rich Baker developed them he was using the core fundamental rules from 2nd Edition AD&D, those rules specifically state that they are guidelines, not gospel.

    It doesn't matter whether The Gorgon has a lack of dexterity in his claws or even in that narly stone butt of his (grin), at the end of the day it's all up to us.

    I do agree with the Gorgon too powerful side of the argument though. When you take a close look at the Awnsheghlein in the game, it's as if Mr Baker tacked them on at the end of his work week.

    If you put one of the established Awnsheghlein in the hands of a PC, they would go sick. Just imagine if you had a spitefull DM on your hands (oh wait, that's me).

    Way too much game imbalance.

  2. #22
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    I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).

    The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage. Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.

    The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the writer's part. If you ask me, the Gorgon's Bloodline is close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose, the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped, the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25 BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he would not have reached at least 500 score.

    Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the Stonecrowns in his castle's dungeon, if memory serves, there is a circular corridor with a naga)

  3. #23
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    Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
    he is Fighter only.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
    > [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of
    > brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 1:10 PM
    > To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
    > Subject: Re: [12#85]
    >
    >
    > A_dark wrote:
    > I agree. The Gorgon is a powerful mage, any Lost is a
    > powerful mage and given the story of the Gorgon he is more or
    > less one of the Lost, perhaps the Last of the Lost. (Others
    > are the Raven if his story is true, El Sheighul, Atar the
    > Lost, who is dead (BoP) and possibly the Magian).
    >
    > The only argument I have heard that could make me wonder
    > about his mage class is the RP addition thing, but all this
    > discussion about finger dexterity is pointless, since even if
    > he can cast no spells any more, he would still be a mage.
    > Inability to cast the spells would not remove his class.
    >
    > The RP addition problem is probably a miscalculation on the
    > writer`s part. If you ask me, the Gorgon`s Bloodline is
    > close to 1000. He is having children only to slay them with
    > tighmaevril, remember? He has a wife just for that purpose,
    > the Black Princess, and from his children few have escaped,
    > the first being now a 19th level mage, introduced in the
    > Warlock of the Stonecrowns adventure. If the Gorgon begins on
    > 0HC with 100 bloodscore and finds a suitable wife say after
    > looking for 100 years, I am willing to assume it just to be
    > on the safe side. His first child would have a 50 or so
    > bloodscore and from bloodtheft, Gorgon would take a 25
    > BPoints. 125 with one child. Now, he has 1500 years ahead of
    > him to repeat this, not to mention the various Awnies he has
    > slain (Diabolyk, Water Maiden, there have to be more) and the
    > various lieutenants he has slain and the various heroes he
    > has slain. Now, with a single child he has reached 125. I
    > sincerely doubt that in 1500 years he wou ld not have
    > reached at least 500 score.
    >
    > Now to the silly argument about his finger dexterity. There
    > are far too many creatures that cast spells only with verbal
    > components. The Naga is indeed one (By the way it is from the
    > normal Monstrous Manual, not forgotten realms specific, as I
    > think someone said, and actually in the Warlock of the
    > Stonecrowns in his castle`s dungeon, if memory serves, there
    > is a circular corridor with a naga)
    >
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  4. #24
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    On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 21:35, Milos Rasic wrote:

    Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
    he is Fighter only.


    Yeah, I`m all for keeping him a straight warrior type too.

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  5. #25
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:

    >Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
    >he is Fighter only.

    Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
    his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed system of
    sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
    since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
    description.

    Gary

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  6. #26
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    On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 09:38, Gary wrote:

    At 01:35 PM 6/12/2002 +0200, you wrote:

    >Is there any reason he should be a mage? Blood Enemies clearly says that
    >he is Fighter only.

    Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
    his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed system of
    sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
    since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
    description.

    You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
    justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
    completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?

    That would be like writing the Bible and just *forgetting* to mention
    that Jesus was the son of God.

    If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him
    having any magely powers whatsoever.

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  7. #27
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 10:20 AM 6/13/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > Well, it doesn`t really state that he is a fighter only. It merely omits
    > his wizard levels, but still gives him one of the most developed
    > system of
    > sources in Cerilia.... Personally, I think BE`s Gorgon entry is in error
    > since it doesn`t even really seem to jibe with the rest of it`s own
    > description.
    >
    >You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
    >justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
    >completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?
    >
    >That would be like writing the Bible and just *forgetting* to mention that
    >Jesus was the son of God.
    >
    >If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him having
    >any magely powers whatsoever.

    Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard levels
    and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
    something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
    published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy because it
    is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.) The other
    side of the debate, of course, is that if the Gorgon has no wizard levels,
    but per BE he somehow and for some reason developed a massive system of
    source holdings, because all his source holdings remain in his BE
    description. I think an accidental omission of his wizard levels is a more
    likely explanation than that they intentionally changed the Gorgon, but
    forgot to change any other aspect of the Gorgon`s domain. If it had been
    an intentional and thought out change, surely they would have also taken
    away his 70+ levels of source holdings, or is that part of the BE version
    of Apocrypha?

    Actually, what I think what might _really_ have happened was when Slade
    wrote up BE he had somewhere in the back of his mind the idea that the
    Gorgon-Raven-Magian "triumvirate of evil" were going to each represent an
    aspect of the evil awnsheghlien with the Gorgon representing the physical
    violence aspect, the Magian the mystical evil and the Raven bridging the
    two, per the characterization stuff under the Raven`s description, but the
    thinking never really went much beyond that paragraph, even at the editing
    stage, so in the rush to go to press the Gorgon`s wizard levels weren`t
    included.

    Is it a good idea to omit the Gorgon`s wizard levels? Maybe. Maybe
    not. Depends on how you want to play him--and the rest of the triumvirate
    of evil, for that matter. One could go with either version of the
    character--I personally prefer the original--but this contention that BE
    "clearly states the Gorgon is a fighter only" is incorrect. Nowhere in BE
    does it say anything like that, and it`s just as plausible (IMO more
    plausible) that it is an error rather than an intentional change.

    Gary

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  8. #28
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    On Thu, 2002-06-13 at 11:24, Gary wrote:



    Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard levels
    and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
    something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
    published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy because it
    is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)

    Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is very arguably
    the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake can
    be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The Gorgon
    is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I think the
    scale of any such omission is about equal.

    The massive system of source holdings means nothing - or perhaps
    everything. It`s very easily an argument for no wizardly powers at all.
    What ? Yes, there`s a rule that mentions that you can control sources
    without being able to use them -- okay, then -- give me an example !
    Hmmmm, ? Oh... I Know .... I Know ... the Gorgon !!

    IF they forgot anything, it`s many more times likely that they forgot to
    remove his sources. There`s no mention in the descriptive text of any
    wizardly powers at all - not even a hint. But I don`t think they did
    forget anything - they meant for those sources to be controlled rather
    than uncontrolled.

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  9. #29
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    > Yeah, I realize that. That`s what they did. They forgot his wizard
    levels
    > and spell list. It`s a simple mistake. Wouldn`t be the first time
    > something was left out, nor even the most glaring omission in the BR
    > published materials. (Though I must contend your Bible analogy
    because it
    > is frivolous, insulting, inappropriate and just plain wrong.)
    >
    > Hey, what`s wrong with the Bible analogy - the Gorgon is very arguably
    > the most visible of all awnsheghlien. I can`t accept that a mistake can
    > be made on such a colossal scale with such a central theme. The Gorgon
    > is awnsheghlien - the prototype - the one - he`s da man. I think the
    > scale of any such omission is about equal.

    The Bible analogy is too extreme for what can simply be explained as an
    error in the text. There are gobs of mistakes in the BR materials, the
    fallibility of the authors and editors isn`t such a big deal that it merits
    comparison to the "son of God" IMO. I`m not a particularly religous person,
    in fact I`m rather agnostic, but leaping straight to an analogy that
    references an issue that billions of people consider the core of their
    theology to make a point about a supplemental rulebook in a RPG campaign
    setting? Too much.

    > The massive system of source holdings means nothing - or perhaps
    > everything. It`s very easily an argument for no wizardly powers at all.
    > What ? Yes, there`s a rule that mentions that you can control sources
    > without being able to use them -- okay, then -- give me an example !
    > Hmmmm, ? Oh... I Know .... I Know ... the Gorgon !!

    The Tuarhieval SB also has a regent who controls source holdings without
    having wizard levels, and there`s temple of Rournil in Khinasi that does as
    well. The rules regarding source holdings, however, state that one cannot
    create source holdings without wizard levels. That doesn`t mean the Gorgon
    has to have wizard levels. He could have taken those holdings from a wizard
    or wizards after they were created, and then he spent several hundred RP and
    GB ruling them up. Another possibility is that he recently stolen them from
    a very powerful wizard in his own realm. Or they could simply have made an
    error in transcribing the character information.

    If you`re going with a non-wizard version of the Gorgon, then I think the
    best explanation is that he recently took his holdings from one or two very
    powerful wizards in his domain. Otherwise one has to come up with a
    plausible reason why he would dedicate so much time and effort to developing
    one of the largest source domains in Cerilia. I still think it`s easier to
    go with the wizard version of G rather than add additional background
    material and history to him, but YMMV.

    > IF they forgot anything, it`s many more times likely that they forgot to
    > remove his sources. There`s no mention in the descriptive text of any
    > wizardly powers at all - not even a hint. But I don`t think they did
    > forget anything - they meant for those sources to be controlled rather
    > than uncontrolled.

    There are very few references to the Gorgon`s wizardly powers before BE
    either, but there was no debate that he had them up until that text came
    out. If they had really meant to change the character they would only have
    to had to say so in the intro or something.

    Gary

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  10. #30
    Administrator Green Knight's Avatar
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    >You realize your argument is that they omitted something from what is
    >justifiably the most important and central awnsheghlien in a book
    >completely dedicated to awnsheghlien ?

    Stranger things have happened. Still, even the cardsheet from the BR box
    doesn`t mention any spells, the Wizard 16 entry under Class/Levels is
    all I have ever found to support him being a mage.

    >If anything, Blood Enemies quite clearly omits all reference to him
    >having any magely powers whatsoever.

    Except a massive number of source holdings. The inconsistency is
    enormous - the BE doesn`t mention magely powers at all, but gives an
    all-fighter character the most extensive network of sources in Cerilia.
    BAAAAD workmanship is one way of describing it.

    There are many inconsistencies, and it boils down to this: Would YOU
    like the Gorgon to be a mage in your campaign, or not?

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    Cheers
    Bjørn
    DM of Ruins of Empire II PbeM

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