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08-01-2002, 02:16 PM #21
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Hehe, great ideas :)
I go for the Lost, cos I like those people. Besides it makes it really interesting that Magian, the Ghul and the Raven are all so close to one another, no? :)
As for the Vampire not being undead, I said so myself and the Magian agreed :) He just looks like one.
The Magian, as Gary said, could be undead.
I also said too, that the undead cannot have bloodlines with the possible unique exception of vampires, since they do have blood. The Spectral Scion, drains blood, but he destroys it. He does not add it to his own :)
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08-01-2002, 07:08 PM #22
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Orginally posted by Ariadne
Why a commoner can't commit bloodtheft? This does mean, no commoner can EVER get blooded.Lord Eldred
High Councilor of the
United Provinces of Cerilia
"May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"
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08-01-2002, 07:18 PM #23
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Orginally posted by geeman
At 01:35 PM 8/1/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:
> OK Gary, How did he steal the bloodline. Unblooded can not commit blood
> theft. Someone would have had to vested him with a bloodline. Who would
> do that and why?
Well, first of all, I don`t think he did steal his bloodline. I go with a
version of the Magian as a "typical" awnsheghlien, corrupted by his
bloodline into the form that somehow represents his personal/spiritual
image, just like all the others. It hasn`t really come up IMC that I need
to have more background material on the Magian, so I haven`t ruled as to
his specific origin, and if it does I`ll probably go with the simplest
interpretation. There are several possible origins for the Magian as a
blooded lich, however, including such things as:
1. It may not be absolutely necessary to have a bloodline in order to
commit bloodtheft. There are several examples of awnsheghlien who gained
their bloodline by committing an act of bloodtheft. The Wolf and the Boar,
for instance, gained a bloodline after an act of bloodtheft, or it is
speculated that some similar event caused their corruption. I would
suggest that has something to do with the nature of Azrai`s bloodline,
since those who`ve been described as having gained their bloodline by
bloodtheft seem to have Azrai`s derivation.
Orginally posted by geeman
2. The Magian may be one of the last members of the Lost. (Maybe he`s the
Last Long-lived Lost Left?) The Lost gained some sort of bloodline like
power from Azrai and the ability to cast true magic. We have very little
information on what specific powers were gained by being one of the Lost,
but since it replicates the ability to cast true magic the same way a
bloodline does, it may also allow one to commit bloodtheft..
Orginally posted by geeman
3. He might have been at Deismaar. The Magian could have gained his
bloodline _after_ having transformed into a lich and attended the
battle. The Magian was unknown on Cerilia until recently, but that just
means that he wasn`t around as The Magian. He could have existed for
centuries, he might have left the continent immediately after the battle
and travelled Aebrynis, he could have been trapped somehow by the energies
released at the battle and only recently freed himself, or he might simply
have been laying low, gathering his strength and preparing for the right
time to make his appearance on the scene in Cerilia. Granted, it would
seem strange not to note the appearance of a lich at Deismaar, but there
were some pretty powerful characters there, not to mention a few gods and
dragons, so the Magian`s presence might not figure too highly on the
billing. He may not even have been there as a combatant, but as an
observer trying to learn as much as possible about the nature of
divinity--of interest to a lich..
Orginally posted by geeman
4. The Land`s Choice. Why must the Land`s Choice always be
benevolent? Sometimes Cerilia (not to mention the DM) needs a dark
overlord to thin out the population and act as a foil to youthful
adventurers. Who better than a vastly powerful lich? "You speak of the
one prophesied to bring balance to mebhaighl? You think it is this... lich?".
Orginally posted by geeman
5. The Magian is also known to have done extensive research into the nature
of bloodlines itself. He`s created a spell that can corrupt the bloodline
of another character, so it`s possible that he`s also come up with a means
of stealing the bloodline of another character. Danita Kusor, the
Chimaera, is/was a much less powerful wizard than the Magian (W13 compared
to W20) but she managed to gain her bloodline after being soaked in the
same alchemical fluids she used to create the Binman--who also gained a
bloodline--after slaying the Iron Troll..
Orginally posted by geeman
6. He could have gotten his bloodline by investiture. That doesn`t mean he
was necessarily someone`s heir (though that too is a possible explanation)
since he could have used his powerful magics to charm/enslave someone with
a bloodline and then got a priest (by coercion or he might have just found
an evil priest) to perform an Investiture to transfer his victim`s
bloodline. This person need not necessarily have been of Azrai`s
derivation, since one of the spells the Magian has access is to switch a
bloodline derivation to Azrai. Maybe the first person that spell was used
on was the Magian himself...
I`m sure there are other possibilities, and there are combinations of the
above that could be used to explain his bloodline.
Gary.Lord Eldred
High Councilor of the
United Provinces of Cerilia
"May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"
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08-02-2002, 11:20 AM #24Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Not exactly Ariadne. Commoners can be invested with a bloodline or inherit it at someone's death but they can not commit bloodtheft.May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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08-02-2002, 02:06 PM #25
At 01:20 PM 8/2/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:
>In the book of regency is described, if a scion dies (through
>bloodtheft???), a great (or not so great) explosion followes. This would
>mean, anything (included plants and commoners) would get something of this
>power. Aren`t they blooded then? Or how does this work???
That doesn`t mean the explosion is as great as that which created
bloodlines in the first place, nor that the character`s bloodline is
dispersed to those within the blast radius. The only ways that are 100%
sure to turn a commoner into a scion is investiture/inheritance or the
Land`s Choice. Some characters have gained a bloodline in mysterious ways
(mostly awnsheghlien) but for the most part those two are the only ways
that there are rules for.
That doesn`t mean you couldn`t change it, of course, so that bloodtheft is
possible for non-scions. I believe Travis Doom`s BR 3e conversion
does. If commoners can gain a bloodline, however, I suspect scions would
become something of a hunted group of people, however, and it creates a lot
of strangeness with how regents will work at the domain level. Regents
have some measure of job security in that they are not replaceable with
99.9% of the population. If an act of bloodtheft can "create" a blooded
character, however, that opens up a whole new pool of potential rulers....
The Vos are described as having much less of a problem using investiture to
transfer a bloodline to a worthy commoner. In essence, all you need is a
willing 1st level priest who controls a temple(1) and 1GB to perform that
ceremony upon a captured or otherwise unwilling target.
Gary
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08-02-2002, 02:06 PM #26
At 09:18 PM 8/1/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:
>>It may not be absolutely necessary to have a bloodline in order to commit
>>bloodtheft. There are several examples of awnsheghlien who gained their
>>bloodline by committing an act of bloodtheft.
>
>While it may be speculated that this is true it would not be consistent
>with the rulebook on bloodtheft. However, they may have forced someone to
>invest them with their bloodline thus committing a form of bloodtheft. OF
>COURSE IF YOU WISH TO DISREGARD THE RULES YOU COULD HAVE THEM COMMITTING
>BLOODTHEFT.
It occurs to me that what is described in the texts regarding this
particular method of transferring a bloodline isn`t really bloodtheft, per
se. It`s something extra, usually involving the target being devoured by
the creature who winds up with the bloodline. Check out Blood Enemies
entries for the Wolf or the Sphinx. The discovery that one could commit
bloodtheft by stabbing a character through the heart came rather quickly
after Deismaar, but apparently relatively few Cerilians kill and then eat
their blooded opponents.... Could it be that devouring a blooded character
is even more effective than jabbing a ventricle? There are many examples
of this kind of sympathetic magic relationship. Many Norse myths have
heroes eating the hearts of their enemies....
Several other awnsheghlien could be hypothesized as having gained their
bloodline in a similar manner.
>Are you sure that the Lost don`t really just have a bloodline that was
>imbued differently than all the ones gained at Deismarr? Can you point me
>to some readings on the Lost that would support them not being blooded?
>Otherwise I think you may have a reasonable explanation here.
There`s not a lot of information on the Lost, so you can make up just about
whatever you like. There have been various explanations for their
powers. I personally like to think of the Lost as being like a proxy in
tMotP/Planescape, with at least one of their powers being to cast true
magic on Aebrynis. Additional powers could be things very similar to a
bloodline and blood abilities.
Also, "the Lost" as a group need not all necessarily have been empowered in
the same way. One could have his soul tied to a demon`s, another could
have the equivalent of a bloodline, a third could be a proxy, etc. "The
Lost" might be more of an explanation of their status as a minion of Azra
(as well as something of a hint about their condition/fate) than as a sort
of template.
>>He might have been at Deismaar.
>
>I really like this explanation.
Really? I thought it kind of the silliest... but I guess it does have a
kind of appeal... and if the Magian transformed into a lich before Deismaar
he would be immortal (or whatever you want to call that undead state) so
there`s no reason why he couldn`t still be around....
>>The Land`s Choice. Why must the Land`s Choice always be benevolent?
>
>I would think the land would fear this type of blooded because they are
>more likely to abuse the land than to do it good. However, perhaps a swamp
>land or a land highly connected to the shadow world would make this choice.
The Magian does have an interest in maintaining sources.... Also, this
very much depends on how/why you think the Land`s Choice works. I kind of
like the idea that Aebrynis was "awakened" by the explosion of Deismaar, so
on those occasions when the Land`s Choice occurs it is the planet
him/her/itself engaging in a little social farming of humanity. Who knows
what the purposes are behind the awakened planet? There`s some more
information regarding this interpretation in the birthright-l archives
under the title "The BR Gaia Hypothesis" available at:
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A...D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1
>>The Magian is also known to have done extensive research into the nature
>>of bloodlines itself. He`s created a spell that can corrupt the
>>bloodline of another character, so it`s possible that he`s also come up
>>with a means of stealing the bloodline of another character. Danita
>>Kusor, the Chimaera, is/was a much less powerful wizard than the Magian
>>(W13 compared to W20) but she managed to gain her bloodline after being
>>soaked in the same alchemical fluids she used to create the Binman--who
>>also gained a bloodline--after slaying the Iron Troll.
>
>Again a distortion of the rules. However, this could have been a forced
>investiture ceremony.
The Binman or the Chimaera could have been forced investiture? It seems
lacking several important aspects to be an investiture, and has a few
circumstances that would seem extraneous to investiture, but that seem
important to the process of gaining a bloodline....
Gary
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08-03-2002, 12:02 AM #27
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On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 22:51, Gary wrote:
At 01:20 PM 8/2/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:
>In the book of regency is described, if a scion dies (through
>bloodtheft???), a great (or not so great) explosion followes. This would
>mean, anything (included plants and commoners) would get something of this
>power. Aren`t they blooded then? Or how does this work???
That doesn`t mean the explosion is as great as that which created
bloodlines in the first place, nor that the character`s bloodline is
dispersed to those within the blast radius. The only ways that are 100%
sure to turn a commoner into a scion is investiture/inheritance or the
Land`s Choice. Some characters have gained a bloodline in mysterious ways
(mostly awnsheghlien) but for the most part those two are the only ways
that there are rules for.
That doesn`t mean you couldn`t change it, of course, so that bloodtheft is
possible for non-scions. I believe Travis Doom`s BR 3e conversion
does. If commoners can gain a bloodline, however, I suspect scions would
become something of a hunted group of people, however, and it creates a lot
of strangeness with how regents will work at the domain level. Regents
have some measure of job security in that they are not replaceable with
99.9% of the population. If an act of bloodtheft can "create" a blooded
character, however, that opens up a whole new pool of potential rulers....
The Vos are described as having much less of a problem using investiture to
transfer a bloodline to a worthy commoner. In essence, all you need is a
willing 1st level priest who controls a temple(1) and 1GB to perform that
ceremony upon a captured or otherwise unwilling target.
I believe you need a WILLING target. Of course there is the "do it or
die willing". However the priests of Belinik seem to have no problems
finding bloodlines. There seems sufficient anecdotal evidence that
bloodtheft can benefit non-scions (Manticore for example), and no truly
compelling reason why not.
I`m not fond of the idea of unrestricted transferal of bloodlines
however. It could lead to a situation where players attempt to abuse it.
Like drugs in sport, once one competitor gets away with it, others see
that they need to do it also in order to compete. The concept that
players (or even that NPCs) could chop and change their bloodline at
will (given a PC realm priest) is somewhat unsettling. A bloodline
should be for life. Once you lose yours - through whatever means - you
don`t get another. Perhaps in all beings there is always a spark of
divine breath left over from their creation, and that this spark links
to the bloodline - or whatever.
Gary
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08-03-2002, 12:25 AM #28
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On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 23:19, Gary wrote:
At 09:18 PM 8/1/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:
>Are you sure that the Lost don`t really just have a bloodline that was
>imbued differently than all the ones gained at Deismarr? Can you point me
>to some readings on the Lost that would support them not being blooded?
>Otherwise I think you may have a reasonable explanation here.
There`s not a lot of information on the Lost, so you can make up just about
whatever you like. There have been various explanations for their
powers. I personally like to think of the Lost as being like a proxy in
tMotP/Planescape, with at least one of their powers being to cast true
magic on Aebrynis. Additional powers could be things very similar to a
bloodline and blood abilities.
Also, "the Lost" as a group need not all necessarily have been empowered in
the same way. One could have his soul tied to a demon`s, another could
have the equivalent of a bloodline, a third could be a proxy, etc. "The
Lost" might be more of an explanation of their status as a minion of Azra
(as well as something of a hint about their condition/fate) than as a sort
of template.
Or, of course Azrai may have imbued his favorites with a part of his
power while he was still alive - to enable them to cast arcane spells -
knowing that this power linked them to him forever. (Just another
explanation)
>>The Magian is also known to have done extensive research into the nature
>>of bloodlines itself. He`s created a spell that can corrupt the
>>bloodline of another character, so it`s possible that he`s also come up
>>with a means of stealing the bloodline of another character. Danita
>>Kusor, the Chimaera, is/was a much less powerful wizard than the Magian
>>(W13 compared to W20) but she managed to gain her bloodline after being
>>soaked in the same alchemical fluids she used to create the Binman--who
>>also gained a bloodline--after slaying the Iron Troll.
>
>Again a distortion of the rules. However, this could have been a forced
>investiture ceremony.
The Binman or the Chimaera could have been forced investiture? It seems
lacking several important aspects to be an investiture, and has a few
circumstances that would seem extraneous to investiture, but that seem
important to the process of gaining a bloodline....
Investiture may not be the only way of stealing/gaining a bloodline --
but it remains the only way for player characters. Allowing something to
happen "outside the rules of play" when it`s under the control of the DM
is not only acceptable but quite commonplace. While the Magian (as an
NPC) may have discovered methods of corrupting and stealing/draining
bloodlines -- and remember that bloodsilver was also uniquely discovered
-- a player character attempting to discover the same has absolutely
zero (0%) chance ever.
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08-03-2002, 02:15 AM #29
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> Investiture may not be the only way of stealing/gaining a bloodline --
> but it remains the only way for player characters. Allowing something to
> happen "outside the rules of play" when it`s under the control of the DM
> is not only acceptable but quite commonplace. While the Magian (as an
> NPC) may have discovered methods of corrupting and stealing/draining
> bloodlines -- and remember that bloodsilver was also uniquely discovered
> -- a player character attempting to discover the same has absolutely
> zero (0%) chance ever.
So the Magian, who is listed in BE as the equivalent of a 20th level
wizard, can find such a method, but my (hypothetical) 20th level PC
wizard with access to the same resources cannot? Why not?
To me, it seems both unfair and unrealistic to have effectively one
set of rules for the PCs and another, more liberal one for the NPCs.
That is definitely neither acceptable nor commonplace IMC.
-Andreas
------------------------------------------------
Andreas Kjeldsen
Email: kjeldsen@stud.ku.dk
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08-03-2002, 02:15 AM #30
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Kjeldsen" <kjeldsen@STUD.KU.DK>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:23 PM
> To me, it seems both unfair and unrealistic to have effectively one
> set of rules for the PCs and another, more liberal one for the NPCs.
> That is definitely neither acceptable nor commonplace IMC.
Abonminations are not just another NPC, though. Each one is a unique
super-being. This is one of the reasons that so many of them were
multi-classed back under a rules set that forbade it for humans.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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