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  1. #21
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    Hehe, great ideas :)

    I go for the Lost, cos I like those people. Besides it makes it really interesting that Magian, the Ghul and the Raven are all so close to one another, no? :)

    As for the Vampire not being undead, I said so myself and the Magian agreed :) He just looks like one.

    The Magian, as Gary said, could be undead.

    I also said too, that the undead cannot have bloodlines with the possible unique exception of vampires, since they do have blood. The Spectral Scion, drains blood, but he destroys it. He does not add it to his own :)

  2. #22
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    Orginally posted by Ariadne

    Why a commoner can't commit bloodtheft? This does mean, no commoner can EVER get blooded.
    Not exactly Ariadne. Commoners can be invested with a bloodline or inherit it at someone's death but they can not commit bloodtheft.
    Lord Eldred
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    United Provinces of Cerilia
    "May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"

  3. #23
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    Orginally posted by geeman

    At 01:35 PM 8/1/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

    > OK Gary, How did he steal the bloodline. Unblooded can not commit blood
    > theft. Someone would have had to vested him with a bloodline. Who would
    > do that and why?

    Well, first of all, I don`t think he did steal his bloodline. I go with a
    version of the Magian as a "typical" awnsheghlien, corrupted by his
    bloodline into the form that somehow represents his personal/spiritual
    image, just like all the others. It hasn`t really come up IMC that I need
    to have more background material on the Magian, so I haven`t ruled as to
    his specific origin, and if it does I`ll probably go with the simplest
    interpretation. There are several possible origins for the Magian as a
    blooded lich, however, including such things as:

    1. It may not be absolutely necessary to have a bloodline in order to
    commit bloodtheft. There are several examples of awnsheghlien who gained
    their bloodline by committing an act of bloodtheft. The Wolf and the Boar,
    for instance, gained a bloodline after an act of bloodtheft, or it is
    speculated that some similar event caused their corruption. I would
    suggest that has something to do with the nature of Azrai`s bloodline,
    since those who`ve been described as having gained their bloodline by
    bloodtheft seem to have Azrai`s derivation.
    While it may be speculated that this is true it would not be consistent with the rulebook on bloodtheft. However, they may have forced someone to invest them with their bloodline thus committing a form of bloodtheft. OF COURSE IF YOU WISH TO DISREGARD THE RULES YOU COULD HAVE THEM COMMITTING BLOODTHEFT.

    Orginally posted by geeman

    2. The Magian may be one of the last members of the Lost. (Maybe he`s the
    Last Long-lived Lost Left?) The Lost gained some sort of bloodline like
    power from Azrai and the ability to cast true magic. We have very little
    information on what specific powers were gained by being one of the Lost,
    but since it replicates the ability to cast true magic the same way a
    bloodline does, it may also allow one to commit bloodtheft..
    Are you sure that the Lost don't really just have a bloodline that was imbued differently than all the ones gained at Deismarr? Can you point me to some readings on the Lost that would support them not being blooded? Otherwise I think you may have a reasonable explanation here.

    Orginally posted by geeman

    3. He might have been at Deismaar. The Magian could have gained his
    bloodline _after_ having transformed into a lich and attended the
    battle. The Magian was unknown on Cerilia until recently, but that just
    means that he wasn`t around as The Magian. He could have existed for
    centuries, he might have left the continent immediately after the battle
    and travelled Aebrynis, he could have been trapped somehow by the energies
    released at the battle and only recently freed himself, or he might simply
    have been laying low, gathering his strength and preparing for the right
    time to make his appearance on the scene in Cerilia. Granted, it would
    seem strange not to note the appearance of a lich at Deismaar, but there
    were some pretty powerful characters there, not to mention a few gods and
    dragons, so the Magian`s presence might not figure too highly on the
    billing. He may not even have been there as a combatant, but as an
    observer trying to learn as much as possible about the nature of
    divinity--of interest to a lich..
    I really like this explanation.

    Orginally posted by geeman

    4. The Land`s Choice. Why must the Land`s Choice always be
    benevolent? Sometimes Cerilia (not to mention the DM) needs a dark
    overlord to thin out the population and act as a foil to youthful
    adventurers. Who better than a vastly powerful lich? "You speak of the
    one prophesied to bring balance to mebhaighl? You think it is this... lich?".
    I would think the land would fear this type of blooded because they are more likely to abuse the land than to do it good. However, perhaps a swamp land or a land highly connected to the shadow world would make this choice.


    Orginally posted by geeman

    5. The Magian is also known to have done extensive research into the nature
    of bloodlines itself. He`s created a spell that can corrupt the bloodline
    of another character, so it`s possible that he`s also come up with a means
    of stealing the bloodline of another character. Danita Kusor, the
    Chimaera, is/was a much less powerful wizard than the Magian (W13 compared
    to W20) but she managed to gain her bloodline after being soaked in the
    same alchemical fluids she used to create the Binman--who also gained a
    bloodline--after slaying the Iron Troll..
    Again a distortion of the rules. However, this could have been a forced investiture ceremony.

    Orginally posted by geeman

    6. He could have gotten his bloodline by investiture. That doesn`t mean he
    was necessarily someone`s heir (though that too is a possible explanation)
    since he could have used his powerful magics to charm/enslave someone with
    a bloodline and then got a priest (by coercion or he might have just found
    an evil priest) to perform an Investiture to transfer his victim`s
    bloodline. This person need not necessarily have been of Azrai`s
    derivation, since one of the spells the Magian has access is to switch a
    bloodline derivation to Azrai. Maybe the first person that spell was used
    on was the Magian himself...

    I`m sure there are other possibilities, and there are combinations of the
    above that could be used to explain his bloodline.

    Gary.
    Wow, I think I have argued the 6th one alot so I don't think I can disagree with Gary on that one.
    Lord Eldred
    High Councilor of the
    United Provinces of Cerilia
    "May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"

  4. #24
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

    Not exactly Ariadne. Commoners can be invested with a bloodline or inherit it at someone's death but they can not commit bloodtheft.
    Why not? In the book of regency is described, if a scion dies (through bloodtheft???), a great (or not so great) explosion followes. This would mean, anything (included plants and commoners) would get something of this power. Aren't they blooded then? Or how does this work???
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  5. #25
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:20 PM 8/2/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

    >In the book of regency is described, if a scion dies (through
    >bloodtheft???), a great (or not so great) explosion followes. This would
    >mean, anything (included plants and commoners) would get something of this
    >power. Aren`t they blooded then? Or how does this work???

    That doesn`t mean the explosion is as great as that which created
    bloodlines in the first place, nor that the character`s bloodline is
    dispersed to those within the blast radius. The only ways that are 100%
    sure to turn a commoner into a scion is investiture/inheritance or the
    Land`s Choice. Some characters have gained a bloodline in mysterious ways
    (mostly awnsheghlien) but for the most part those two are the only ways
    that there are rules for.

    That doesn`t mean you couldn`t change it, of course, so that bloodtheft is
    possible for non-scions. I believe Travis Doom`s BR 3e conversion
    does. If commoners can gain a bloodline, however, I suspect scions would
    become something of a hunted group of people, however, and it creates a lot
    of strangeness with how regents will work at the domain level. Regents
    have some measure of job security in that they are not replaceable with
    99.9% of the population. If an act of bloodtheft can "create" a blooded
    character, however, that opens up a whole new pool of potential rulers....

    The Vos are described as having much less of a problem using investiture to
    transfer a bloodline to a worthy commoner. In essence, all you need is a
    willing 1st level priest who controls a temple(1) and 1GB to perform that
    ceremony upon a captured or otherwise unwilling target.

    Gary

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  6. #26
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:18 PM 8/1/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

    >>It may not be absolutely necessary to have a bloodline in order to commit
    >>bloodtheft. There are several examples of awnsheghlien who gained their
    >>bloodline by committing an act of bloodtheft.
    >
    >While it may be speculated that this is true it would not be consistent
    >with the rulebook on bloodtheft. However, they may have forced someone to
    >invest them with their bloodline thus committing a form of bloodtheft. OF
    >COURSE IF YOU WISH TO DISREGARD THE RULES YOU COULD HAVE THEM COMMITTING
    >BLOODTHEFT.

    It occurs to me that what is described in the texts regarding this
    particular method of transferring a bloodline isn`t really bloodtheft, per
    se. It`s something extra, usually involving the target being devoured by
    the creature who winds up with the bloodline. Check out Blood Enemies
    entries for the Wolf or the Sphinx. The discovery that one could commit
    bloodtheft by stabbing a character through the heart came rather quickly
    after Deismaar, but apparently relatively few Cerilians kill and then eat
    their blooded opponents.... Could it be that devouring a blooded character
    is even more effective than jabbing a ventricle? There are many examples
    of this kind of sympathetic magic relationship. Many Norse myths have
    heroes eating the hearts of their enemies....

    Several other awnsheghlien could be hypothesized as having gained their
    bloodline in a similar manner.

    >Are you sure that the Lost don`t really just have a bloodline that was
    >imbued differently than all the ones gained at Deismarr? Can you point me
    >to some readings on the Lost that would support them not being blooded?
    >Otherwise I think you may have a reasonable explanation here.

    There`s not a lot of information on the Lost, so you can make up just about
    whatever you like. There have been various explanations for their
    powers. I personally like to think of the Lost as being like a proxy in
    tMotP/Planescape, with at least one of their powers being to cast true
    magic on Aebrynis. Additional powers could be things very similar to a
    bloodline and blood abilities.

    Also, "the Lost" as a group need not all necessarily have been empowered in
    the same way. One could have his soul tied to a demon`s, another could
    have the equivalent of a bloodline, a third could be a proxy, etc. "The
    Lost" might be more of an explanation of their status as a minion of Azra
    (as well as something of a hint about their condition/fate) than as a sort
    of template.

    >>He might have been at Deismaar.
    >
    >I really like this explanation.

    Really? I thought it kind of the silliest... but I guess it does have a
    kind of appeal... and if the Magian transformed into a lich before Deismaar
    he would be immortal (or whatever you want to call that undead state) so
    there`s no reason why he couldn`t still be around....

    >>The Land`s Choice. Why must the Land`s Choice always be benevolent?
    >
    >I would think the land would fear this type of blooded because they are
    >more likely to abuse the land than to do it good. However, perhaps a swamp
    >land or a land highly connected to the shadow world would make this choice.

    The Magian does have an interest in maintaining sources.... Also, this
    very much depends on how/why you think the Land`s Choice works. I kind of
    like the idea that Aebrynis was "awakened" by the explosion of Deismaar, so
    on those occasions when the Land`s Choice occurs it is the planet
    him/her/itself engaging in a little social farming of humanity. Who knows
    what the purposes are behind the awakened planet? There`s some more
    information regarding this interpretation in the birthright-l archives
    under the title "The BR Gaia Hypothesis" available at:

    http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A...D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1

    >>The Magian is also known to have done extensive research into the nature
    >>of bloodlines itself. He`s created a spell that can corrupt the
    >>bloodline of another character, so it`s possible that he`s also come up
    >>with a means of stealing the bloodline of another character. Danita
    >>Kusor, the Chimaera, is/was a much less powerful wizard than the Magian
    >>(W13 compared to W20) but she managed to gain her bloodline after being
    >>soaked in the same alchemical fluids she used to create the Binman--who
    >>also gained a bloodline--after slaying the Iron Troll.
    >
    >Again a distortion of the rules. However, this could have been a forced
    >investiture ceremony.

    The Binman or the Chimaera could have been forced investiture? It seems
    lacking several important aspects to be an investiture, and has a few
    circumstances that would seem extraneous to investiture, but that seem
    important to the process of gaining a bloodline....

    Gary

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  7. #27
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    On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 22:51, Gary wrote:

    At 01:20 PM 8/2/2002 +0200, Ariadne wrote:

    >In the book of regency is described, if a scion dies (through
    >bloodtheft???), a great (or not so great) explosion followes. This would
    >mean, anything (included plants and commoners) would get something of this
    >power. Aren`t they blooded then? Or how does this work???

    That doesn`t mean the explosion is as great as that which created
    bloodlines in the first place, nor that the character`s bloodline is
    dispersed to those within the blast radius. The only ways that are 100%
    sure to turn a commoner into a scion is investiture/inheritance or the
    Land`s Choice. Some characters have gained a bloodline in mysterious ways
    (mostly awnsheghlien) but for the most part those two are the only ways
    that there are rules for.

    That doesn`t mean you couldn`t change it, of course, so that bloodtheft is
    possible for non-scions. I believe Travis Doom`s BR 3e conversion
    does. If commoners can gain a bloodline, however, I suspect scions would
    become something of a hunted group of people, however, and it creates a lot
    of strangeness with how regents will work at the domain level. Regents
    have some measure of job security in that they are not replaceable with
    99.9% of the population. If an act of bloodtheft can "create" a blooded
    character, however, that opens up a whole new pool of potential rulers....

    The Vos are described as having much less of a problem using investiture to
    transfer a bloodline to a worthy commoner. In essence, all you need is a
    willing 1st level priest who controls a temple(1) and 1GB to perform that
    ceremony upon a captured or otherwise unwilling target.


    I believe you need a WILLING target. Of course there is the "do it or
    die willing". However the priests of Belinik seem to have no problems
    finding bloodlines. There seems sufficient anecdotal evidence that
    bloodtheft can benefit non-scions (Manticore for example), and no truly
    compelling reason why not.

    I`m not fond of the idea of unrestricted transferal of bloodlines
    however. It could lead to a situation where players attempt to abuse it.
    Like drugs in sport, once one competitor gets away with it, others see
    that they need to do it also in order to compete. The concept that
    players (or even that NPCs) could chop and change their bloodline at
    will (given a PC realm priest) is somewhat unsettling. A bloodline
    should be for life. Once you lose yours - through whatever means - you
    don`t get another. Perhaps in all beings there is always a spark of
    divine breath left over from their creation, and that this spark links
    to the bloodline - or whatever.

    Gary

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  8. #28
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    On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 23:19, Gary wrote:

    At 09:18 PM 8/1/2002 +0200, Lord Eldred wrote:

    >Are you sure that the Lost don`t really just have a bloodline that was
    >imbued differently than all the ones gained at Deismarr? Can you point me
    >to some readings on the Lost that would support them not being blooded?
    >Otherwise I think you may have a reasonable explanation here.

    There`s not a lot of information on the Lost, so you can make up just about
    whatever you like. There have been various explanations for their
    powers. I personally like to think of the Lost as being like a proxy in
    tMotP/Planescape, with at least one of their powers being to cast true
    magic on Aebrynis. Additional powers could be things very similar to a
    bloodline and blood abilities.

    Also, "the Lost" as a group need not all necessarily have been empowered in
    the same way. One could have his soul tied to a demon`s, another could
    have the equivalent of a bloodline, a third could be a proxy, etc. "The
    Lost" might be more of an explanation of their status as a minion of Azra
    (as well as something of a hint about their condition/fate) than as a sort
    of template.

    Or, of course Azrai may have imbued his favorites with a part of his
    power while he was still alive - to enable them to cast arcane spells -
    knowing that this power linked them to him forever. (Just another
    explanation)


    >>The Magian is also known to have done extensive research into the nature
    >>of bloodlines itself. He`s created a spell that can corrupt the
    >>bloodline of another character, so it`s possible that he`s also come up
    >>with a means of stealing the bloodline of another character. Danita
    >>Kusor, the Chimaera, is/was a much less powerful wizard than the Magian
    >>(W13 compared to W20) but she managed to gain her bloodline after being
    >>soaked in the same alchemical fluids she used to create the Binman--who
    >>also gained a bloodline--after slaying the Iron Troll.
    >
    >Again a distortion of the rules. However, this could have been a forced
    >investiture ceremony.

    The Binman or the Chimaera could have been forced investiture? It seems
    lacking several important aspects to be an investiture, and has a few
    circumstances that would seem extraneous to investiture, but that seem
    important to the process of gaining a bloodline....

    Investiture may not be the only way of stealing/gaining a bloodline --
    but it remains the only way for player characters. Allowing something to
    happen "outside the rules of play" when it`s under the control of the DM
    is not only acceptable but quite commonplace. While the Magian (as an
    NPC) may have discovered methods of corrupting and stealing/draining
    bloodlines -- and remember that bloodsilver was also uniquely discovered
    -- a player character attempting to discover the same has absolutely
    zero (0%) chance ever.

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  9. #29
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    > Investiture may not be the only way of stealing/gaining a bloodline --
    > but it remains the only way for player characters. Allowing something to
    > happen "outside the rules of play" when it`s under the control of the DM
    > is not only acceptable but quite commonplace. While the Magian (as an
    > NPC) may have discovered methods of corrupting and stealing/draining
    > bloodlines -- and remember that bloodsilver was also uniquely discovered
    > -- a player character attempting to discover the same has absolutely
    > zero (0%) chance ever.

    So the Magian, who is listed in BE as the equivalent of a 20th level
    wizard, can find such a method, but my (hypothetical) 20th level PC
    wizard with access to the same resources cannot? Why not?

    To me, it seems both unfair and unrealistic to have effectively one
    set of rules for the PCs and another, more liberal one for the NPCs.
    That is definitely neither acceptable nor commonplace IMC.

    -Andreas


    ------------------------------------------------
    Andreas Kjeldsen
    Email: kjeldsen@stud.ku.dk

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  10. #30
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Andreas Kjeldsen" <kjeldsen@STUD.KU.DK>
    Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:23 PM


    > To me, it seems both unfair and unrealistic to have effectively one
    > set of rules for the PCs and another, more liberal one for the NPCs.
    > That is definitely neither acceptable nor commonplace IMC.

    Abonminations are not just another NPC, though. Each one is a unique
    super-being. This is one of the reasons that so many of them were
    multi-classed back under a rules set that forbade it for humans.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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