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07-31-2002, 03:08 AM #11
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On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 03:53, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 AM
> I thought: Hey, maybe Travis Doom simply forgot to add the rule that
> priests only have limited access to certain spheres/domains while he was
> making up the 3E manual partly from the 3E PHB.
Its really difficult to apply the spheres in 3e. Some spell names have
changed subtly. Some spell levels are changed. You need both a 2e spell
reference and a 3e one, and you need to be on the lookout for conversion
issues. Unless you are really devoted to spheres, its best to just forget
about them.
The only thing that finally got me to go back and make the master lists of
domains for 3e spells was the decision (under the influence of John Machin)
to turn priests into divine wizards in regards their armor and weapons
allowances. Getting the 3e spell list organized by spheres was a lot of
work.
Spell spheres were perhaps one of the few significant contributions of
2e to AD&D. Varying the armor restrictions of priests was also entwined
with the number of spell spheres and granted powers. The baseline
character class in 2e should be the warrior. What does the specific
priesthood give up to gain his spheres and powers compared to the
warrior.
Haelyn
drop d10 to d8 HP,
slightly worse THAC0, no
specialization
+2 v Fear etc, Turn
Undead, weapon of
choice, SP all, charm,
combat, air, healing,
law, protection -
divination, guardian,
necromantic
Erik
drop d10 to d8 HP,
slightly worse THAC0, no
specialization, no
multiple attacks,
limited armor, d6
damage weapons
move silently+hide
shadows, animal empathy,
shapechange, pass
without trace, +2 v
fire/elec, identify
plants/animals, extra
languages, immunity to
natural charm, SP
animal, plant,
elemental, healing all,
summoning, weather -
divination, protection,
travellers
Cuiraecen
drop d10 to d8 HP, no
specialization (no
losses to paladins at
all)
lightning and cold
resistance, SP all ,
combat, air, water,
guardian, war, weather -
chaos, healing,
protection
Nesirie
drop d10 to d8 HP,
slightly worse THAC0, no
specialization, no
multiple attacks,
limited armor (scale),
limited weapons (spear
d6/d8 best)
turn undead, water
breathing/walking, SP
all, sea animal, charm,
divination, water,
healing, necromantic,
protection - combat,
weather plus solid fog,
free action
Wow!!!!!!! It`s not rocket science to discover that Haelyn, Erik, and
Cuiraecen have made GREAT tradeoffs. Nesirie seems far more balanced.
Personally, I drop the weapon of choice for Haelyn back to 5th level and
eliminate their multiple attacks - dropping all three minor spheres and
demote protection and charm to minor spheres. Erik loses elemental
completely - plant, animal and elemental are just way too powerful given
the other powers - and plant and animal seem mandatory. Cuiraecen`s
spells are quite limited - but THAC0 and multiple attacks as a warrior?
- I don`t think so, they get dropped but allow HP as d10.
Whoever designed these priesthoods didn`t look at the relative merits of
each of the spell spheres. Just counting the spheres isn`t good enough -
some are way more useful than others and have many more spells. Nor did
they use a baseline for what`s in and out - their scoping was predicated
on what was `in` only.
3e really isn`t class-based, it`s pretty much a free-for-all, that`s a
style thing - some like it and some hate it. So there it`s about
character balance - or about min/maxing your character more often than
not. (Yes, I`m one of those that really hate it with a vengeance - it
doesn`t contribute to D&D at all)
So single class comparisons really are meaningless in 3e. In 2e however,
the poor old wizard is at the opposite end of the combat-magic
comparison line. He will generally have fewer spells than the priest,
but be less restricted in their effects. His defenses against magic are
better, but he makes a poorer melee combatant. (Even so, a 5th level
wizard should find 2 goblins a no-contest in melee - and that is no
wimp!) Gygax changed the magic system to mnemonic once his own playing
group reached 7th level and above - coincidence ? - I say no, 99% of all
player characters (if played from 1st level) should be 7th level or
below - so what kept the wizards alive that far? (i) free choice of
spells at casting time, (ii) made up spells out of balance with level,
and (iii) WANDS!
When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest
with a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?
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07-31-2002, 09:50 AM #12
@ Peter Lubke:
Are you talking of 2nd or 3rd edition? What do you mean, a priest gets d10 HP? When I'm informed correctly they get only d8 (or are you talking of fighters with priest abilities?)!
originally posted by Peter Lubke
When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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07-31-2002, 11:33 PM #13
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On Wed, 2002-07-31 at 19:50, brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
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Ariadne wrote:
@ Peter Lubke:
Are you talking of 2nd or 3rd edition? What do you mean, a priest gets d10 HP, when I`m informed correctly they get only d8 (or are you talking of fighters with priest abilities?)!
2nd Ed, Give `em what you think is correct a d10 d8 or d6 (even a d4) -
I think Cuiraecen priests THAC0 and multiple attacks are too unbalanced
(compared to an equivalent level warrior), but letting them have d10 for
HP would be more balanced. For that matter Ruornil and Eloele should be
d6 for HP. (if not even d4 for Ruornil)
originally posted by Peter Lubke
When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?
At 120 yards - you probably can`t tell she`s a priestess - and she gets
fried anyway :-)
Of course at 10 yards, she gets asked to dinner by candlelight (what
other kind is there?)
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08-01-2002, 05:46 AM #14
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Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with
>a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?
Arm the wizard with a sling and the priest of Cuiraecen with a sword of
lightning. Now who`s laughing. If you`re going to set these silly things
up set them up evenly. If the priest is able to apply his best spell to
resist fire, the wizard is considerably less effective, and yet the priest
of Cuiraecen has plenty of combat oriented spells to counteract any of the
mage armor or shield spells the wizard might employ, that and his decent
comabt ability. Priests have strong defensive magiks, the ability to heal
their larger hit dice, and present formidable opponants to wizards.
Generally wizards need to maintain the upper hand in combat. They are
brittle. Without the upper hand they are very vulnerable. The
priest-wizard confrontation is very much like the fighter-rogue
confrontation.
Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile
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08-01-2002, 09:00 AM #15
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On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 14:44, Hieronymus Agricola wrote:
Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>When you compare a priest of Cuiraecen with a wizard - arm the priest with
>a sword and the wizard with a wand of fire. Now who`s chuckling?
Arm the wizard with a sling and the priest of Cuiraecen with a sword of
lightning. Now who`s laughing. If you`re going to set these silly things
up set them up evenly.
Silly? How so? I was merely pointing out that a wizard is far more
likely to have and use a wand of fire than to engage in melee. The
comparison HAS to be between apples and oranges. A wizard with a sling
as their main weapon (sans spells, wands etc) would be extremely rare
(even if the only melee weapon of said wizard was a sling - it would be
their last resort, and even then from a 40` high wall with the priest at
the bottom unable to get up). A priest of Cuiraecen OTOH, is very likely
to use a sword and choose to enter melee - and very unlikely for that
sword to be a sword of lightning (although it probably would be their
dream weapon - much as a staff of the magi is for wizards - with about
equal probability of happening).
HPs and armor class are not a consideration for wizards, if they are
close enough that it matters they are already in big trouble, so
there`s no point in using them as a true comparison. The difference
between a priest of Cuiraecen and a warrior is almost negligible in
combat ability. I`m not arguing that priests aren`t good in combat -
quite the opposite - my point is that one-on-one this pair wont enter
combat except at a distance equal to the range of a wand.
If the priest is able to apply his best spell to
resist fire, the wizard is considerably less effective, and yet the priest
of Cuiraecen has plenty of combat oriented spells to counteract any of the
mage armor or shield spells the wizard might employ, that and his decent
comabt ability. Priests have strong defensive magiks, the ability to heal
their larger hit dice, and present formidable opponants to wizards.
Generally wizards need to maintain the upper hand in combat. They are
brittle. Without the upper hand they are very vulnerable. The
priest-wizard confrontation is very much like the fighter-rogue
confrontation.
Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile
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08-01-2002, 11:58 AM #16Orginally posted by Peter Lubke
I think Cuiraecen priests THAC0 and multiple attacks are too unbalanced(compared to an equivalent level warrior), but letting them have d10 for HP would be more balanced.
originally posted by Peter Lubke
At 120 yards - you probably can`t tell she`s a priestess - and she gets fried anyway :-)
By the way, the wizard has more than three energie-forms to counter her (O.K., until he finds the right, he might be dead..) and the hardest weapon a wizard has is a "stoneskin" and a "globe of invulnerability". Even a good priestess must hack some rounds to get though it or must be powerfull enough to cast "flame strike" or "stormrage"...May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!
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08-01-2002, 02:36 PM #17
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Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
>Silly? How so? I was merely pointing out that a wizard is far more
>likely to have and use a wand of fire than to engage in melee. The
>comparison HAS to be between apples and oranges.
But does the priest engage the wizard with a mundane weapon? Can`t you use
the gp values of a wand of fire to estimate what kind of magical assistance
the priest might be carrying? You make it sound as if he pulled a blade
from the bargain bin. A better comparison might make use of a typical mage
weapon vs a typical priest weapon of approximate power.
>HPs and armor class are not a consideration for wizards, if they are
>close enough that it matters they are already in big trouble, so
>there`s no point in using them as a true comparison.
Disagree, especially when that priest of Cuiraecen might just be able to
call lighting. Priests have ranged spells too. So the ability to withstand
a mutual spell blasts effects saves, hp`s, and includes the priest ability
to heal himself. While any mage can purchase a potion to restore healing,
the priest is likely to have more of them, and may be making them himself.
Not to mention scrolls. A priest with a bow and a true strike spell is
going to force a lot of concentration checks and wear down the wizard`s
ability to withstand the priest.
I grant that the range may start out great. But while the wizard must
maintain distance, the priest of Cuiraecen can wield spells at distance as
well as ranged weapons, and close for melee. Thw wizard is forced to
maintain the upper hand. Its certainly possible. That`s what fly and
invisibility spells are for. But its no slam dunk. The priest is
formidable.
Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, summoner
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08-01-2002, 09:00 PM #18
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:14 PM
> Whoever designed these priesthoods didn`t look at the relative merits of
> each of the spell spheres. Just counting the spheres isn`t good enough -
> some are way more useful than others and have many more spells. Nor did
> they use a baseline for what`s in and out - their scoping was predicated
> on what was `in` only.
Don`t forget that priesthoods are not supposed to be balanced. The greater
gods were designed to have cooler priests than the intermediate, or lessor
gods. Haelyn, Avani, and Erik are greater gods, so I think they were
looking to make them better.
The way I handle this in 3e is to create more aspects, more domains, and
more paths for a greater god than intermediate, and fewer still for the
lessor gods. My thinking gives demigods two domains. Lessor gods have
three, so some choice comes into the picture. Intermediate have four, and
greater gods have five. Its one of the reasons that you can have Haelyn`s
alignment be any good or any lawful. I can focus on Good and Courage while
another priest may focus on Law and War. Community is my fifth domain for
Haelyn. You can come up with a great variety of priests serving different
purposes. It makes the many sects of Haelyn interesting while still serving
the greater cause of Haelyn, because Haelyn has many causes. The NIT, for
instance is very much a good-centered temple. The NIT is not particularly a
militaristic temple, so war is not common, though courage is. I might
describe the WIT as a community and war based temple, with the ethical
concerns of law and good taking a back seat. The OIT probabaly requries
that Law is one of your domains.
I`d be willing to see Haelyn`s priests have a core set of spells (All,
Charm, and Healing) augmented by whichever domains were selected by getting
those spheres as well.
Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com
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08-02-2002, 12:47 AM #19
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On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 00:22, Hieronymus Agricola wrote:
Quoth Peter Lubke <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>
Disagree, especially when that priest of Cuiraecen might just be able to
call lighting. Priests have ranged spells too. So the ability to withstand
a mutual spell blasts effects saves, hp`s, and includes the priest ability
to heal himself. While any mage can purchase a potion to restore healing,
the priest is likely to have more of them, and may be making them himself.
Not to mention scrolls. A priest with a bow and a true strike spell is
going to force a lot of concentration checks and wear down the wizard`s
ability to withstand the priest.
I will again repeat my point . I don`t care and have no particular
leaning toward which is `better` than the other. You can compare two
priests. You can compare two warriors. You can compare two magic-users.
But it`s as pointless to compare a mage`s melee skills to a warrior`s
melee skills -- as a point of reference -- as to compare the warriors
spell casting skills to the mage`s spell casting skills. Neither the
warriors spell casting or the wizards melee ability are truly relevant
in a comparison.
A priest of Cuiraecen (specifically Cuiraecen and no-one else - just
Cuiraecen - okay?) is very very similar to a bog-standard warrior.
Comparing a priest of Cuiraecen to a warrior shows a distinct unbalanced
approach from the priesthood designers, the only difference is that the
priest has all his powers and spells and fewer hit points - NOT a
balanced priesthood.
From the point of trying to compare a magic-user to a warrior (apples
and oranges), it matters not a scrap if the wizard has a dagger of venom
-- it`s not an attack mode of choice -- spells, staffs and wands are.
Sure a magic-user doesn`t wear armor -- since he`s not intending to
melee, that`s not so important - and the warriors armor doesn`t help him
against the charm spell. The mage`s THAC0 ? - how does that help him
flick the switch on the wand? Hit points - well cross discipline hit
points always favor the character with more -- it`s a more involved
point to make but consider a wizard(d4) with a 16 constitution and a
priest(d8) with a 14 constitution.
Of course this priest is formidable, very in fact - more formidable than
the same level of warrior, far more formidable than the same XP warrior,
more formidable than any other priesthood --- as a warrior. But as a
spell caster he kinda sucks. Magic stone or spiritual hammer when you
have a big sword and a crossbow? Call lightning is pretty cool and flame
strike too if you are outdoors. A cure light wounds is okay, but it`s
the best healing spell he`s got. Protection from fire is useful against
those wands of fire, but the reality is that this priest is an
in-your-face combat priest - up close and personal. [Erik`s priests have
the best spell casting IMO.]
------
Further On HP:
The HP balance cross-discipline (or cross-class if you will) is sort-of
balanced out but in a haphazard kind of way. It`s far from consistent
but ...
A warrior tends to use the same class of weapon for his entire career -
a sword does 1-8 against lower level opponents and 1-12 against higher
level opponents. I`m generalizing but except for the ultimate opponents
(other men), most high HD monsters are also larger than man-sized. He
may get a slightly better sword as time goes by, but the damage will
still fall into roughly the same range. In the meantime his HP rise
quite quickly. A 9th level warrior with a +3 sword does 4-11 pts of
damage per strike. (about 7.5 on average)
At the other end of the class-spectrum, the magic-users weapon tends to
be able to do more and more damage as the caster rises in level. A 9th
level mage with a lightning bolt does 9-54 points of damage (average
about 32), and victims save for half-damage. Inconsistency occurs when
it takes more lightning bolt spells to take out a warrior than required
to take out another mage. It doesn`t mean that the mage vs warrior
balance is wrong, nor does it mean that the mage vs mage balance is
wrong.
Priests of course, generally have a d8 for hit points - having slightly
fewer than warriors. Their weapons don`t have quite the same damage
potential - just a few points lower. They have some magics - mostly
defensive but some offensive - they are generally balanced too.
IMC, no character gets any bonus or penalty to HP for constitution. A
9th level mage will have 9-36 HP (average 23) and a 9th level warrior
will have 9-90 HP (average 50). In a strict face-off, the warrior (armed
with say a +3 longsword) has a pretty good base chance of sticking the
sword right through the mage (about 90%) for 4-11 points of damage (25%
chance of an outright kill). The mage has a 100% chance of hitting the
warrior with a cone of cold (13-40 points).
I use the notion of a combat round being a number of feints,
opportunities, attacks, parries - all determined by a single attack roll
(gee - sounds a lot like the original D&D doesn`t it). Because the
warrior has greater combat experience, skill at avoiding damage etc he
has more HP -- but the mage has some too -- the average warrior will
have more (27 points more). The warrior will actually damage the mage if
he hits - the mage`s combat experience isn`t sufficient to avoid the
blow. The mage has enough power in his spell to potentially wound the
warrior (average is about 32 damage - 5 more than 27), and he could kill
with a good roll (but could also not damage with a bad roll).
Such powerful characters are deadly, and combat is swift. A 9th level
warrior is no more able to withstand a lightning bolt from a 9th level
mage as is a first level warrior or a clerk of the court. (Although he
has a much better chance to avoid it). Similarly, the mage has little
defense against the warriors supreme skill with the blade - he can`t "go
a few rounds" just because he has a few HP - against this warrior he`s
as much a match as that clerk is. No-one, not even powerful characters
themselves should piss either one of this pair off and think to get away
lightly.
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08-02-2002, 02:20 AM #20
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I wasn`t disagreeing with that point. I was disagreeing with the
characterization of a wizard with a wand laughing at the priest of Cuiraecen
who no one bothered to arm at all. No wonder the wizard is laughing, the
deck was stacked in his favor. About as funny as the wizard with a sling
....
My point, which I must have burried, was that while the wizard and priest
may be different, they are more similar when similarly armed. All your
comparison established was that the unarmed are laughable.
Hieronymus Agricola
wizard, alchemist, bibliophile
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