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  1. #1
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    Here is something I posted in the forum of the BR campaign I currently play
    in. Was this by intention or failure omitted from the 3E manual?

    "The player of Caine mentioned the original idea what divine and arcane
    magic should be able to do and what not.

    They have been split into something like divine magic heals, protects,
    cures, does nice damage against single targets (slay living?) but fails
    doing massdamage against several enemys - that´s where wizards excel.
    Starting with 3rd level fireball, or lightning bolt up to Melf´s Minute
    Meteors, Delayed Blast Fireballs or whatever the wizards is the TRUE, FULL
    spellcaster wielding mass-destructive power. But he can´t heal himself even
    1 point...


    My opinion:
    The 3E manual of Travis Doom omitted one very important rule of 2E and
    Birthright - the specialty priests!

    2E rules balanced the armour-wearing, mace or other blunt martial weapon
    wielding, relatively sturdy cleric (as compared to the relying only on magic
    protection, being able to use only peasants weapons, physically frail
    wizard) by restricting the clerics access to spells.

    In 2E Birthright a priest had major access to some spheres of divine magic,
    e.g. of combat (all 9 levels of spells available), but only minor access to
    some, e.g. the sphere of divination (a priest of Haelyn could never cast
    DETECT LIE as it is a fourthlevel spell) and even NO access at all to some
    (e.g. a druid/priest of erik had no access to the sphere of combat).

    This gave 2E Priests a certain flavour in my opinion - a priest of Nesierie
    excelled at healing and divining, Haelyn´s chosen at battle...

    The 3E manual of Travis Doom omitted this important rule. The consequences
    are that the priest class in 3E Birhtright as compared to the other
    spellcasters (wizard/sorceror) is not well balanced.

    Already in 2E and in 3E continued are these factors:
    ====================================
    Priests (temples) have an income of their own - wizard (sources) have to
    rely on what they beg from others or have to burn regency to alchemy gold at
    horrifying exchange rates.

    Priests have the FREE Agitate action - Wizards have none.

    Priests wield the power of Investiture which nearly all other regents need -
    Wizards?

    Priests may wear all armour and shields- Wizards none (except magical means
    which the priest may wear also).

    Priests may use a much wider range of weapons than wizards.

    Priests pray for their conventional spells, they simply have to chose from
    the list available for their spelllevel - wizards have to research their
    conventional spells, burning gold and time (except those few spells that
    come with gaining levels). And remember that as a wizard you need to know
    the conventional version of a spell before you can convert it to a battlespell.

    That was (as said above) balanced by restricting the clerics access to spells.

    Now in 3E these unbalancing rules were added:
    =================================

    Wizards may not freely exchange researched spells (and they have to research
    even conventional spells!), and do so only under the most dire circumstances
    - Priests however have no problems trading or exchanging spells.

    Priests gain 2 granted powers for the 2 domains they choose from their gods
    list AND gain a +1 bonus for casting spells from that domains AND gain an
    additional domain spell per spelllevel. Comparable advantages a wizard could
    only gain if he would specialize in a school of magic, loosing access to
    several other schools. And even then he would not have the same advantages.

    Spell selectioin is restricted for priests now only that they may not use
    spells from directly opposed domains (e.g. EVIL-GOOD) but to all other
    domains they have full access (at least I have not seen any restriction
    similar to 2E).

    My suggestions for discussion as house rules are:

    1) Restrict divine spell access as in 2E:
    Full 9 level access only to the two chosen domains,
    3 level minor access to the other domains of the clerics deity,
    NO access to all others domains (similar to 2E specialty priest and not too
    far strechted, as the 3E advantages of priests resemble specialization. This
    would mean that a priest without the WAR domain would never cast a spell
    from that domain (including battlespells as hammerstorm from the old combat
    sphere which I see closely resembled in the new WAR domain).

    OR
    2) If Priests are capable of casting area-affecting massdamage spells on the
    battlefield, then they meddle in affairs that only wizards/sorcerors should
    be allowed (being the physically frail TRUE FULL spellcasters). Priests may
    do so, but only if they chose the "Non-Militant" version of Priests
    (forfeiting their heavy and medium armour feat, changing their d8 to a d6
    hit dice, changing their attack bonus to poor like a wizard, see p. 5 of the
    3E manual) AND do NOT gain the advantages of this type of cloistered cleric
    - in fact they resemble wizards now, at least somehow. Priest who do not
    chose this restriction, may cast battlespells, as heal, cure but no damage
    spell, which affects more than 1 unit (no area spells). Priests in full
    plate armour, wielding blunt martial weapons, casting massdamage spell
    matching the massdamage of wizards in a whole area affecting lots of units
    are overpowering.

    OR
    3) If we let the Clerics in 3E as they are, no restrictions, they are in
    effect FULL spellcasters with few restriction - wizards and sorcerors are
    TRUE FULL spellcasters with LOTS of restrictions. So they should then have
    some noticeable advantages when it comes to the only thing they can do good
    - spellcasting:
    - at the very least CAST REALM SPELL and CAST BATTLE SPELL are bonus feats
    for true (d4) wizards;
    - each and every battlespell converted from divine spells costs at least 4
    GB. Arcane battle spells cost 1 GB for spells affecting only a single unit,
    2 GB affecting several units, 3 GB area effect.
    - Priest without the WAR domain pay TWICE the amount for casting battlespells;
    - wizards gain the same advantages the "non-militant" cloistered cleric
    gains (see p. 5 3E manual). Why not? Wizards are not more better
    spellcasters than priests and have lots of restrictions priests don´t have.
    A few skill points an a skill focus feat are not too much;

    AND
    4) As clerics have not to spend time and money researching their
    conventional spells which wizards have to (with the exception of the few
    spells gaind by gaining level) it can´t be that wizards may not exchange
    spells among each other, but priests may freely trade battle spells (they
    have no need to trade conventional spells, as they know ALL of them!)
    Priest should be unable to trade spells, tradition could be a reason, but
    much better: Prayers to a certain god can´t be used by a cleric of another
    god, even if it´s Cuiraceen and Haelyn - a priest of Haelyn praying for a
    battle spell prayer to Cuiraceen will receive no response

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  2. #2
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    You love to play wizards, ey?

    1) Wizards habe THE BETTER SPELLS! O.K., the domains give excess to some wizard spells, but not very much. A high level wizard would top a cleric, if good prepared. A wizard must only take one level in a other class and he can wear, what he wants to.

    2) The clerics have serveral disadvantages in 3rd edition (Cuiraécen priests loose there fighter attack f.e.). That's why an idea with cleric prestige classes is a good one.

    3) To research spells and knowlege is life filling for a wizard! (If you don't want that, play a sorcerer) It's up to the DM to let you find the spells you want.

    4) If priests are non-militant the would not pray for combat spells!

    5) If you want to have good weapons to fight with, play an elf!

    6) The priests have fewer spells too (compare: A priest of 1st level with wisdom 19 gets 6 spells of first spell level [2nd edition] and 3 spells [3rd edition])!

    7) Priest ARE unable to trade spells!
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  3. #3
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    Hello!

    brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

    >1) Wizards habe THE BETTER SPELLS! O.K., the domains give excess to some wizard spells, but not very much. A high level wizard would top a cleric, if good prepared. A wizard must only take one level in a other class and he can wear, what he wants to.
    >
    But he still suffers spell failure risks when wearing armour... So even
    a wizard 10/fightter 1 might wear heavy armour, he would be no good at
    casting...

    >7) Priest ARE unable to trade spells!
    >
    Maybe, but it is not written officially in the 3E rule book, while it IS
    written for wizards...
    bye
    Michael

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  4. #4
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    > >7) Priest ARE unable to trade spells!
    > >
    > Maybe, but it is not written officially in the 3E rule book,
    > while it IS written for wizards... bye Michael

    But priests know all Divine spells available to them. I would not apply
    this to Battle and Realm spells, however, but would allow them to trade
    those if the two priests are of same religion.

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  5. #5
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

    But he still suffers spell failure risks when wearing armour... So even a wizard 10/fighter 1 might wear heavy armour, he would be no good at casting...
    That's the problem of all arcane spellcasters (nothing new compared with 2nd edition). A prestige class can repair this (ignore up to 30% spell failure) or use simply "bracers of defence/ armor", an "amulet of natural armor", a "ring of protection" a.s.o. (if you don't have them, forge them, you ARE a wizard)...


    originally posted by Lord Grave

    But priests know all Divine spells available to them. I would not apply this to Battle and Realm spells, however, but would allow them to trade those if the two priests are of same religion.
    You are right, that priests know all spells available to them allready. My oppinion: If a priest has researched a new spell (of any kind), it is available from this time to any priest OF HIS RELIGION, who gets the level to cast it after the research. All others must trade it, if of the same religion. Priests of other religions (even if allied) must research them alone...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  6. #6
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    @ConjurerDragon

    the points you mention are general problems of the priest class and no conversion or birthright specific problems. there had been several discussions in nearly every important forum of the issue, if the priest class is too strong in the 3. edition or not. at the end the arguments on both sides weren't that striking...
    my purpose is now to lead you into the Pallace where you shall have a clear and delightful view of all those various objects, and scattered excellencies, that lye up and down upon the face of creation, which are only seen by those that go down into the Seas, and by no other....

  7. #7
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    Hello!

    brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:

    >this msg is generated by the Birthright.net forum. you can read the whole thread here: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=816
    Azrai wrote:
    > @ConjurerDragon
    >the points you mention are general problems of the priest class and no conversion or birthright specific problems. there had been several discussions in nearly every important forum of the issue, if the priest class is too strong in the 3. edition or not. at the end the arguments on both sides weren`t that striking...
    >
    I did not say that the priest in 2E compared to the wizard or the 3E
    priest compared to the wizard was too powerful.
    The main reason was that the "specialty" priests of Birthright, who were
    balanced in 2E (IMO) because of limited spell access (major spheres,
    minor spheres, and NO access to some spheres) did not have the same
    balance in 3E.

    I thought: Hey, maybe Travis Doom simply forgot to add the rule that
    priests only have limited access to certain spheres/domains while he was
    making up the 3E manual partly from the 3E PHB.
    bye
    Michael

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    With careful selection of spells, plus the Still Spell feat, you can get
    pretty close to having no penalties for wearing armor. I have an Improved
    Still Spell which basically removes the "one level up" requirement of Still
    Spell, but so far I have restricted it to Sidhe, who should be able to be
    fighter-mages without penalty.

    Any character who wants to eliminate the armor penalty and is willing to
    invest a reasonable number of choices to get there should be able to. The
    form these choices take will naturally vary from campaign to campaign, but
    it should be a possibility.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
    Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 AM


    > I thought: Hey, maybe Travis Doom simply forgot to add the rule that
    > priests only have limited access to certain spheres/domains while he was
    > making up the 3E manual partly from the 3E PHB.

    Its really difficult to apply the spheres in 3e. Some spell names have
    changed subtly. Some spell levels are changed. You need both a 2e spell
    reference and a 3e one, and you need to be on the lookout for conversion
    issues. Unless you are really devoted to spheres, its best to just forget
    about them.

    The only thing that finally got me to go back and make the master lists of
    domains for 3e spells was the decision (under the influence of John Machin)
    to turn priests into divine wizards in regards their armor and weapons
    allowances. Getting the 3e spell list organized by spheres was a lot of
    work.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  10. #10
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    Hello!
    Yes, there is a list of domains for the gods in the 3E manual - but
    nowhere is something like in 2E Birthright, e.g. that a priest of Haelyn
    could not cast level 4+ divination spells (minor sphere divination). In
    3E I would have expected to restrict him to level 1-3 of the Knowledge
    domain as being comparable to the 2E divination sphere.e.g. in 2E a
    priest of Haelyn could never cast Detect Lie - now in 3E he can?

    Similar is the Druid of Erik casting the battle spell hammerstorm
    (combat sphere, maybe war domain) not possible in 2E, but no it goes?

    Or the Priest of Cuiraceen casting MAINTAIN ARMIES (2E Creation sphere)
    - not possible in 2E as only Avani and Laerme had creation in her book,
    but in 3E the Priests of Cuiraceen could maintain Ghoeres armys...
    bye
    Michael
    *********************
    Kenneth Gauck wrote:
    ...

    >Its really difficult to apply the spheres in 3e. Some spell names have
    >changed subtly. Some spell levels are changed. You need both a 2e spell
    >reference and a 3e one, and you need to be on the lookout for conversion
    >issues. Unless you are really devoted to spheres, its best to just forget
    >about them.
    >
    >The only thing that finally got me to go back and make the master lists of
    >domains for 3e spells was the decision (under the influence of John Machin)
    >to turn priests into divine wizards in regards their armor and weapons
    >allowances. Getting the 3e spell list organized by spheres was a lot of
    >work.
    >
    >Kenneth Gauck
    >kgauck@mchsi.com
    >
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