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  1. #1
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    Who is responsible for the new writeup on the front page? I know I can comment there but I'd rather put up some comments here first.

    1. Why is Rhoubhe a 2nd level Ranger? It seems odd to take a second level of a class where you get all the goodies at 1st. If he's to be a Ranger (for the human favored enemy), I'd suggest either 1st level or 5th (with Goblins being the second favored enemy)

    2 Your writeup says that Rhoubhe has access to wizards and clerics. Exactly which clerics would those be? Seeing as how Rhoubhe associates nearly exclusively with elves it seems odd that he would know many clerics. (although there is that encounter with the veiled sisters alluded to in the book of priestcraft)

    3. I find it curious that with all his magical access (see above) that none of Rhoubhe's items have the 'human bane' ability. My writeup of Rhoubhe makes Heartspiller and his bow both Human Bane weapons.
    -Sincerely,
    Ross

  2. #2
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    A couple of additional comments regarding a 3e version of RM:

    1. The multi-classing mechanic in 3e is completely different from
    2e. Because of the way multi-classing worked in 2e, Rhoubhe is a 16/15
    fighter/wizard because that`s how his experience points would have been
    split. He`d have between 4,000,000 and 4,500,000 xp, half of which would
    put him at 16th level as a fighter and 15th level as a wizard. In 3e
    there`s no need for these levels to be "balanced" like that, so it`s
    reasonable that those levels could be different.

    2. This isn`t a big deal, but Rhoubhe is probably around 2,000 years
    old. "As a young elf in Southern Aelvinnwode on the banks of the River
    Maesil, Rhuobhe Manslayer met his first humans" according to Blood Enemies,
    and then the text goes on to describe the brief period of human/elf
    alliance against the goblins. Now, it`s doesn`t give an exact date, but
    the humans began arriving around 2,000 years before the opening of the BR
    setting, and who knows how old a "young elf" is? Could be 20, could be
    200.... In any case 2,000 is a more accurate figure for describing how old
    Rhoubhe is than "well over 1,000".

    3. I don`t know how the miscellaneous magic items listed were determined,
    but it appears to have been a random decision, resulting in a rather odd
    inventory. An iron flask with a rakshasa in it doesn`t sound very BR or
    much like something Rhoubhe would have lying around. He also has a whole
    list of weapons and armor beyond those in his stat block that are kind of
    superfluous. Surely Rhoubhe has subordinate who can use those items? The
    additional magic items might better be described as being part of his
    realm`s resources rather than items he`s got stored in some personal vault
    somewhere.

    4. Damage reduction 20/+3?

    5. I don`t have a conversion manual around, so I don`t know if his ability
    scores are translated according to any standard. Does a 19 strength in 2e
    get converted to a 20 strength in 3e? Aren`t other ability scores
    similarly shifted? It`s been quite a while since I did any 2e to 3e
    conversions....

    6. There are Administration and Strategy skills noted in his write
    up. Anyone know what these are based on?

    7. No spell list?

    8. Rhoubhe should have more like 207 hit points not 186 according to he
    levels in that description.

    16th level fighter=92.5 (10hp at first level + 82.5 (15 x 5.5))
    15th level wizard=37.5 (15 x 2.5)
    2nd level ranger=11 (2 x 5.5)
    Constitution=66

    9. The Sense Humans ability should be outlined bit more. Rhoubhe
    personally can sense whenever a human sets foot in his territory?

    10. As Nightstalker noted, his ranger levels are a bit of a departure,
    though I guess it makes sense that the Manslayer should have humans as a
    favored enemy. (He fought goblins for a long time too, though, so they
    seem apt also.) But he doesn`t need ambidexterity/two weapon fighting
    since he carried a shield, though that`s kind of one of the perennial
    problems with the 3e ranger, I guess....

    Gary

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  3. #3
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    On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 01:04, Gary wrote:



    8. Rhoubhe should have more like 207 hit points not 186 according to he
    levels in that description.

    16th level fighter=92.5 (10hp at first level + 82.5 (15 x 5.5))
    15th level wizard=37.5 (15 x 2.5)
    2nd level ranger=11 (2 x 5.5)
    Constitution=66


    Wowie! what a boost from 2nd Edition -- I just want one of them munchkin
    3e characters (sarcasm).

    In BE he`s listed as 88 HP - still way way way above average for a
    F16W15 with a 15 CON!
    44% higher in fact.

    (or)
    F16W15 = (F16HP + W15HP)/2 = 61
    F16 = 9d10 + 7*3 + 9*1 = 79.5
    W15 = 11d4 + 4*1 + 11*1 = 42.5

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  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:48 PM 7/11/2002 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

    > 8. Rhoubhe should have more like 207 hit points not 186 according to he
    > levels in that description.
    >
    >Wowie! what a boost from 2nd Edition -- I just want one of them munchkin
    >3e characters (sarcasm).
    >
    >In BE he`s listed as 88 HP - still way way way above average for a
    >F16W15 with a 15 CON!
    >44% higher in fact.

    I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
    fragile.

    Speaking of which, Rhoubhe could actually have up to 306 hit points since
    BR characters have access to the Training domain action that allows them to
    add a hp up to their maximum. He`s been around for 2,000 years, so he`s
    had something like 24,000 opportunities to do so....

    Gary

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  5. #5
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    On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 13:20, Gary wrote:


    I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
    fragile.

    Not really, take the point of view that a multi-classed fighter-mage is
    in fact a fighting mage. In other words a superior mage, with more HP,
    greater combat skill and the ability to wear armor (and cast spells at
    the same time!). It`s very true that such a character is a poor fighter,
    but that`s not the point - you can be a straight fighter if that`s your
    intention.

    But generally, multi-classing and dual-classing is handled badly.


    Speaking of which, Rhoubhe could actually have up to 306 hit points since
    BR characters have access to the Training domain action that allows them to
    add a hp up to their maximum. He`s been around for 2,000 years, so he`s
    had something like 24,000 opportunities to do so....

    Rhuobhe should have many more source levels scattered through Taeghas,
    Boeruine, Avanil, Tuornen etc --- 2,000 years of hating humans and
    that`s his magic network -- pshaw!!


    Gary

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    I have to say that following the discussion on the conversion of Rhoubhe has
    undermined my confidence in the quality of the 3e conversion. I am sitting
    here asking if the converters know exactly what they are doing.

    Sure Rhoubhe is a 2e F16/W15, but the official stated rule for converting
    characters to 3e is that you divide their secondary class level by three.
    This would make Rhoubhe F16/W5. Now you might think he should be a more
    powerful wizard than this and I would agree. But the character level limit
    should stay to preserve a balanced approach. He shouldn`t have more than 21
    levels.

    To do otherwise seems to show a lack of understanding of the strengths and
    weaknesses of multiclassing between the two editions.

    Unless, of course, the converters are powering up everybody in a similar
    way. That would help preserve balance but destroy any interest I have in
    their work :)

    John

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  7. #7
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    On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 13:57, John Harbord wrote:

    I have to say that following the discussion on the conversion of Rhoubhe has
    undermined my confidence in the quality of the 3e conversion. I am sitting
    here asking if the converters know exactly what they are doing.

    Sure Rhoubhe is a 2e F16/W15, but the official stated rule for converting
    characters to 3e is that you divide their secondary class level by three.
    This would make Rhoubhe F16/W5. Now you might think he should be a more
    powerful wizard than this and I would agree. But the character level limit
    should stay to preserve a balanced approach. He shouldn`t have more than 21
    levels.

    To do otherwise seems to show a lack of understanding of the strengths and
    weaknesses of multiclassing between the two editions.

    You should probably consider that Rhuobhe`s secondary class is his
    fighter class. So that he becomes a W15+F5. Even this is incorrect
    really, because the balance of classes in 2e beyond name level is wonky.
    Even more correct would be W12+F3 -- as you should consider on a strict
    geometric scale that he is F11W12.


    Unless, of course, the converters are powering up everybody in a similar
    way. That would help preserve balance but destroy any interest I have in
    their work :)

    One rather gets this impression.


    John

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  8. #8
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 PM


    > I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
    > fragile.

    That and I thought it was odd that after a certain point, you only gain a
    small amount of hit points. Unless you dual or multi-classed. The longer
    2e receeds into the past the more I find it a pale comparison to 3e, except
    where priests are concerned. :-)

    Conversion of abominations should reflect their role in the setting more
    than a strict adhearance to the logic of conversion or where a living
    character might be converted. The rational for the multiclassing reduction
    in the conversion is that the experience accumulated in a 2e multiclass got
    the advantage of starting over from the begining in a second class. In 3e,
    xp`s are based on character level, not class level. But Rhoubhe isn`t a
    character converted like that, he`s an opponant, and he needs to have a
    certain level of power to represent the same level of threat that he did as
    a 2e abomination. Sure it may have been harder for the Manslayer to get
    those all those 31 levels in e3 than it would be in 2e, but as Gary has
    pointed out, he`s had time to do that, and the setting is better off with a
    powerful Manslayer than it is with a Rhoubhe just slightly more powerful
    than Darien Avan or Aeric Boeruine.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  9. #9
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    On Thu, 2002-07-11 at 15:52, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:20 PM


    > I always hated that about -2e.... Multi-classed characters were strangely
    > fragile.

    That and I thought it was odd that after a certain point, you only gain a
    small amount of hit points.

    XP progression at that point became linear. Rather than gain a random
    (but potentially larger) amount of HP for geometrically increasing XP,
    the gain was smaller against a linearly similar amount of XP. But
    totally unbalanced, it would have been fairer and more consistent to
    give NO HP beyond that point at all.

    Unless you dual or multi-classed.

    No difference.

    The longer
    2e receeds into the past the more I find it a pale comparison to 3e, except
    where priests are concerned. :-)

    Ah, priests - yes, the shining jewel of 2e (and I mean that in all
    sincerity).


    Conversion of abominations should reflect their role in the setting more
    than a strict adhearance to the logic of conversion or where a living
    character might be converted.

    Yes. Rhuobhe is a character that went through a change long before he
    became an awnsheghlien, so he`s very much more than the elf he was,
    although at the same time he`s much less an elf than he was too.

    The rational for the multiclassing reduction
    in the conversion is that the experience accumulated in a 2e multiclass got
    the advantage of starting over from the begining in a second class. In 3e,
    xp`s are based on character level, not class level. But Rhoubhe isn`t a
    character converted like that, he`s an opponant, and he needs to have a
    certain level of power to represent the same level of threat that he did as
    a 2e abomination. Sure it may have been harder for the Manslayer to get
    those all those 31 levels in e3 than it would be in 2e, but as Gary has
    pointed out, he`s had time to do that, and the setting is better off with a
    powerful Manslayer than it is with a Rhoubhe just slightly more powerful
    than Darien Avan or Aeric Boeruine.

    Yes, Rhuobhe should be considered an opponent. BUT, this isn`t
    necessarily a personal power level thingo. At a personal (`class`-like)
    level it`s not easy to assess a warrior against a wizard. At the regent
    level, there are similar difficulties in assessing a wizards domain
    against that of a realm ruler. Even more difficult is to assess personal
    power (of a non-regent) against that of a regent - generally no
    individual will realistically have much of a chance against a regent
    like Rhuobhe.

    Any individual (whether regent or not) must traverse the Manslayers
    domain to get to him. Getting past 200 fanatic elf guards is the least
    of the difficulties. Even a powerful party of characters should find its
    resources well and truly whittled away by the time they get near `the
    elf` himself. (couldn`t resist the pun)

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  10. #10
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    Using the conversion manual, he would indeed be a lvl 21 character. But this
    should be a Wiz 15, F-6. That way, he gets a BAB of +13, which is siliar to
    what he would have gotten as a F-16, and he keeps his spellcasting
    abilities.

    On the other hand, the conversion manual is fr from perfect. Levels in 3E
    seem to be slightly higher across the board. It used to be that only
    spellcasters really learned anything new after level 10; now every class
    continues to progress. So any conversion that is internally consistent can
    work - that is any conversion that maintains the relative power level of the
    different NPCs.

    /Carl

    John Harbord <magius@PARADISE.NET.NZ> wrote at 02-07-11 05.57:

    > I have to say that following the discussion on the conversion of Rhoubhe has
    > undermined my confidence in the quality of the 3e conversion. I am sitting
    > here asking if the converters know exactly what they are doing.
    >
    > Sure Rhoubhe is a 2e F16/W15, but the official stated rule for converting
    > characters to 3e is that you divide their secondary class level by three.
    > This would make Rhoubhe F16/W5. Now you might think he should be a more
    > powerful wizard than this and I would agree. But the character level limit
    > should stay to preserve a balanced approach. He shouldn`t have more than 21
    > levels.
    >
    > To do otherwise seems to show a lack of understanding of the strengths and
    > weaknesses of multiclassing between the two editions.
    >
    > Unless, of course, the converters are powering up everybody in a similar
    > way. That would help preserve balance but destroy any interest I have in
    > their work :)
    >
    > John
    >
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