The Politics Skill.

[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 18:28, John Machin wrote:

Peter says:

> Just so that it`s not the squeaky wheels getting all the oil:
> NPC classes are, and have always been, a complete waste of
> space IMO. (if you role-play) The focus on "character class"
> for "detail", "background", and "development" is only useful
> in automation not role-playing.
>
> There have always been those players (who many call
> munchkins) who want to play (i) a monster, (ii) a NPC class,
> (iii) a god, (iv) etc --- and who play with "rules" that make
> such viable PCs. It`s all a big *****. As the creator said,
> "such persons should play another game".

Are you saying that NPC classes are over-powered?

nope - I`m saying that some persons begin to look at NPC classes and try
to up-power them.


Are we even looking at the same game?

probably not, 3e D&D has lost its way so completely, it no longer
functions as even a remnant of the original role-playing fantasy game.
Ah, the joy of a computerized world.


--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 18:28, John Machin wrote:

Paul says:

> That all depends on what level of analysis you take towards
> politics whether it be system, state, or individual. They
> all play a part in politics as we well know. However as a
> skill itself I think we could measure it at the individual
> level since after all it is the individual using the skill.
> Regardless of what level the skill is being used at the
> individual must still rely upon his skill in order to "spin"
> things his way. The audience are individuals also regardless
> of the level of state they are privilage to they have minds
> subject to ideas. Thus on the drive of this topic for the
> spin skill I would say that it should be placed on the
> individual level since that is what makes up governments.

I am not sure what you mean by "individual level" here. I assume that by
"spin" you are all meaning, basically, lies. In my opinion the Bluff
skill does an excellent job at representing an ability to lie
convincingly to both individuals and crowds.

I must say that I am a bit disturbed that people seem to agree that
politics is all "spin", that is to say, lies. I would think that having
Knowledge (Politics) would help an unscrupulous person know which lies
to tell, but at the same time tell a more ethical person which issues a
population considered to be of primary importance. I don`t think that
politics is an inherently deceptive discipline.

I *really* didn`t want to wade into this debate. I hate (and I do mean
hate) *skills* *feats* etc. I am 1,000% opposed to something like a
"politics skill".

But as a comment on the real world, while in the fantasy world that John
DMs politicians may act nobly - well some of them at least, as I said in
the real world, I totally agree -- it`s all "spin", not so much because
of the individuals - some of them start out okay - but can you honestly
name a single political party that hasn`t been involved in something
dishonest, underhand, or just plain corrupt ? The party system isn`t
about serving the people, it`s about serving the party. Self-interest is
paramount. The struggle for political power.


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[Birthright-L]

Lets end the real-life and pilosopophical parts of this thread while we are
still being polite to one another.

As for the fact that some of us want to revise the skill system, that`s a
fact of life. Those of us who don`t agree have stated that by now, but I
don`t think we should interfere with further development of divergent skill
systems. After all, each of us can play our own game.

/Carl

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[geeman]

At 10:00 PM 7/3/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

> > For the purposes of this discussion I would draw a
> > distinction between politics--as in the interaction of human
> > beings at the national administrative level--and
> > government--as in the methods/process of national
> > administration. I`m really just interested in a new 3e skill
> > for D&D here, not a philosophical discussion about the nature
> > of political life. It`s debatable whether one can really
> > separate those two things, but for the purpose of developing
> > a skill, I think we can.
>
>I am curious as to whhich of the two concepts you mentioned above you are
>seeking to represent with your new skill. If it is politics (which you
>have defined as "...the interaction of human beings at the national
>administrative level...") then surely we have pre-existing skills to
>govern interpersonal actions, such as Bluff, Diplomacy, Innuendo,
>Intimidate, and Sense Motive. In my opinion the concept that you have
>described as government ("...the methods/process of national
>administration.") and the theory of the former would be a more fitting
>basis for a "political" skill. It is not, I assume, by accident that
>certain universities call their Political Science/Studies departments
>`Government` instead.

I want to express more the manipulative, "spin" aspect of politics, rather
than government since I see that as being bigger than a single
character. As a skill what most universities might call Poly Sci or
Government I would probably describe as Knowledge, Government or Knowledge,
Political Science.

As for Bluff, Diplomacy, Innuendo, etc. handling that skill, I think one
could use those skills, but I`ve made changes IMC that not only make adding
a skill not a big deal, but also having very specialized, particular skills
perfectly plausible, so creating a "Politics" or "Rhetoric" skill is works
out just fine.

My question in response would be which of those skills do you think the
ability to manipulate the presentation of events in a light favorable would
most likely fall under? Is it Bluff? Is it Diplomacy? Innuendo, etc.? I
ask because I`m thinking now I should just go ahead and make it a subskill
of an existing skill (which has a slightly different gaming mechanic) but I
still need to decide which skill it falls under.

>In my opinion it is not so much a case of having to separate them, as it
>is that they have already been seperated for us.

If I had the bandwidth on this list to show you how well and easily it can
be fit into the other changes I`ve made to the skill system then this
really wouldn`t be a problem, but the document that describes those changes
is over 26,000 words. That`s not really huge. It`s smaller than the
chapter on skills in the PHB, I believe, but I can`t really post
it. Thanks to everyone for the comments nonetheless.

> > In any case, when it comes to this Politics/Rhetoric skill
> > I`m thinking now that I`ll just have to make it a subskill of
> > Bluff or Influence (the skill I use for Diplomacy) rather
> > than its own skill. I just can`t come up with an adventure
> > level effect for it, let alone a game mechanic with which to
> > handle that effect, so I`m going to leave it at that unless
> > lightning strikes or something....
>
>Mine will remain a knowledge I think, or rather, two Knowledges
>(Politics, and Rhetoric).

I`ve come up with slightly more delineated skill descriptions for use
IMC. Knowledge skills I reserve for information purposes only. That is,
they represent only what a character might have in his head that other
characters without that skill would lack. Right now I`m leaning towards
the equivalent of Diplomacy for Politics/Rhetoric.

>I hope you`ll let us know if you do have any inspiration though :)

Of course! This list is where all my inspiration goes.... <rhetoric>

Oratory is another very good idea for a skill, particularly for BRers. I
would probably lump that in with Perform, handling it a bit differently
than a subskill, since it seems to cover a similar role.

Gary

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[Trithemius]

Peter says:

> I *really* didn`t want to wade into this debate. I hate (and I do mean
> hate) *skills* *feats* etc. I am 1,000% opposed to something
> like a "politics skill".

How about if someone called it the `Statecraft Proficiency` (General, 2
slots, INT-2)?

> But as a comment on the real world, while in the fantasy
> world that John DMs politicians may act nobly - well some of
> them at least, as I said in the real world, I totally agree
> -- it`s all "spin", not so much because of the individuals -
> some of them start out okay - but can you honestly name a
> single political party that hasn`t been involved in something
> dishonest, underhand, or just plain corrupt ? The party
> system isn`t about serving the people, it`s about serving the
> party. Self-interest is paramount. The struggle for political power.

Cynicism ho!

I`m not going to go on about this here since Gary (and I suspect most
people here) want to talk D&D.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Peter says:

> nope - I`m saying that some persons begin to look at NPC
> classes and try to up-power them.

So making them the EQUAL of a PC class is power-gaming?
To quote the Tallest: "Interesting... But I don`t see..."

> probably not, 3e D&D has lost its way so completely, it no
> longer functions as even a remnant of the original
> role-playing fantasy game. Ah, the joy of a computerized world.

Sure it does!
Surely it was the players that made D&D not a THAC0, or even a chart in
the DMs section of the book?

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Gary says:

> I want to express more the manipulative, "spin" aspect of
> politics, rather than government since I see that as being
> bigger than a single character. As a skill what most
> universities might call Poly Sci or Government I would
> probably describe as Knowledge, Government or Knowledge,
> Political Science.

I`ll agree with that :)

> As for Bluff, Diplomacy, Innuendo, etc. handling that skill,
> I think one could use those skills, but I`ve made changes IMC
> that not only make adding a skill not a big deal, but also
> having very specialized, particular skills perfectly
> plausible, so creating a "Politics" or "Rhetoric" skill is
> works out just fine.

You and Kenneth and your polyskillmania ;)

> My question in response would be which of those skills do you
> think the ability to manipulate the presentation of events in
> a light favorable would most likely fall under? Is it Bluff?
> Is it Diplomacy? Innuendo, etc.? I ask because I`m
> thinking now I should just go ahead and make it a subskill of
> an existing skill (which has a slightly different gaming
> mechanic) but I still need to decide which skill it falls under.

I think manipulation (with the air of deceit that it seems to have about
it) probably means that this is a Bluff subskill. However, if you (like
me) wish to have an option for noble politicians (fantastic though that
may be... BR is a fantasy :)) then it might do better as a Diplomacy or
Influence subskill.

> I`ve come up with slightly more delineated skill descriptions
> for use IMC. Knowledge skills I reserve for information
> purposes only. That is, they represent only what a character
> might have in his head that other characters without that
> skill would lack. Right now I`m leaning towards the
> equivalent of Diplomacy for Politics/Rhetoric.

I`d go that way I think (see above).

> Of course! This list is where all my inspiration goes.... <rhetoric>

Ho ho ho :)

> Oratory is another very good idea for a skill, particularly
> for BRers. I would probably lump that in with Perform,
> handling it a bit differently than a subskill, since it seems
> to cover a similar role.

This is pretty much exactly how I would do it too.

I was wondering, with AEGs `Rokugan` book there was a precedent for the
same skill having different abilities linked to it (the Gaming skill
with each of its specialties having a separate attribute). Do you think
that this sort of thing is useful (in general, I can`t think of any
specifics)?

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

Carl says:

> Lets end the real-life and pilosopophical parts of this
> thread while we are still being polite to one another.

We are polite to one another ;)

But really, it`s a good point.

> As for the fact that some of us want to revise the skill
> system, that`s a fact of life. Those of us who don`t agree
> have stated that by now, but I don`t think we should
> interfere with further development of divergent skill
> systems. After all, each of us can play our own game.

[sarcasm]
Even if they do use evil feats and skills...
[/sarcasm]

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 20:00, John Machin wrote:

Having weighed in at all.
This last I will agree with in almost complete totality (both persons).

Gary says:

> For the purposes of this discussion I would draw a
> distinction between politics--as in the interaction of human
> beings at the national administrative level--and
> government--as in the methods/process of national
> administration. I`m really just interested in a new 3e skill
> for D&D here, not a philosophical discussion about the nature
> of political life. It`s debatable whether one can really
> separate those two things, but for the purpose of developing
> a skill, I think we can.

I can`t say that philosophy was foremost in my mind either, but if it
aids in getting a skill "right" I don`t see a problem myself.

I am curious as to whhich of the two concepts you mentioned above you
are seeking to represent with your new skill. If it is politics (which
you have defined as "...the interaction of human beings at the national
administrative level...") then surely we have pre-existing skills to
govern interpersonal actions, such as Bluff, Diplomacy, Innuendo,
Intimidate, and Sense Motive. In my opinion the concept that you have
described as government ("...the methods/process of national
administration.") and the theory of the former would be a more fitting
basis for a "political" skill. It is not, I assume, by accident that
certain universities call their Political Science/Studies departments
`Government` instead.

In my opinion it is not so much a case of having to separate them, as it
is that they have already been seperated for us.

> When it comes to interaction skills, I always go with good
> role-playing over a die roll. If players role-play out an
> interaction in a way that convinces me in my role as the NPC
> then they get their way. I use die rolls on those occasions
> where I (as the NPC) am not really sure which way I would go,
> or on occasions in which the PC really should have superior
> powers of interaction than the player and I want to cut `em a
> break. It`s always a bit of a judgement call. Oh, and
> recently a had a player roll when attempting what is
> categorized as a Tempt: Seduction check among my changes to
> the skill system. I was perfectly happy to go ahead and roll
> play that one....

I agree entirely. However, I expect that some people on this list prefer
to roll. I`d like my suggestions to cater to these people as well as
those with whom I seem to frequently agree :)

> In any case, when it comes to this Politics/Rhetoric skill
> I`m thinking now that I`ll just have to make it a subskill of
> Bluff or Influence (the skill I use for Diplomacy) rather
> than its own skill. I just can`t come up with an adventure
> level effect for it, let alone a game mechanic with which to
> handle that effect, so I`m going to leave it at that unless
> lightning strikes or something....

Mine will remain a knowledge I think, or rather, two Knowledges
(Politics, and Rhetoric).

I hope you`ll let us know if you do have any inspiration though :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 20:52, John Machin wrote:


> dishonest, underhand, or just plain corrupt ? The party
> system isn`t about serving the people, it`s about serving the
> party. Self-interest is paramount. The struggle for political power.

Cynicism ho!

I`m not going to go on about this here since Gary (and I suspect most
people here) want to talk D&D.


Yeah, hmmm ... maybe I`m being too oblique. I`ll try and relate this
particular skill to D&D.

Politics (even as a skill) is about the exercise of knowledge or
influence in an attempt to change or influence the course of events.
Usually this means some compromise (not necessarily on the same issue)
with other persons to gain sufficient support to attain your immediate
goals. If the leader of the "motion" of a particular issue then your own
personal credibility hangs in the balance - can you deliver or not ?
Such considerations hold far more ramifications than a simple yes/no
result would indicate. Even a "win" can be a damaging "loss" in the long
term.

As an individual in a group struggling for political power - as we
should find most individuals within the BR world - a player will be
forced to make similar choices. His supporters will constrain him as
much (if not more) than his detractors. [now I`m not arguing you should
or should not do anything here. I`m trying to point out the limitations
inherent in such a skill to reflect the complexity of such a situation.]

The success of any political move is related to what "favors" you are
prepared to offer, what "threats" you can successfully make(without
having to deliver), in fact it is all "spin"! Because, if there was
agreement in the result/action, there would be no need for political
maneuvering at all - (although according to Hawke the use of consensus
in achieving a politically acceptable result is also a form of politics
- such an act in D&D terms could not be attempted except by the DM as
the result will never be what the instigator is attempting, but some
compromise achieved by consensus/negotiation and is thus inappropriate
to be assigned as a skill).

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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