Clergy Alignment vs. God Alignment

[Azrai]

Orginally posted by A_dark
Or if as you say they punished those with a slightly misguided view of the deity with not granting them spells, why would they keep granting spells to all the various doctrines?

the difference from LG to LE is not "slightly misguided". it defines a complete different approach. Haelyn is described as a pure, holy god similar to a paladin. Imagine an evil worshipper which prays to a good paladin for spells.

[blitzmacher]

Not everything should be black and white. Instead, use shades of gray. The difference between LG and LE is methods they use to enforce the L. The LE character would not believe that he is evil, and would worship Haelyn as the God of Justice, and do his best to uphold justice.

[kgauck]

Saturday, June 29, 2002 7:35 AM
Ariadne wrote:

> But there is the problem one player of us had. He wanted to play
> someone who can fight, heal AND raise the dead (normal and as
> undead). Additionaly he wanted to be CN, if possible. [...]
>
> This points out that you can have serveral alignments to serve a god
> but still don`t find any which you can agree with.

Well, there is some setting information that gets in the way of this one.
The same would be true if you wanted to be an astral traveling kind of guy.
BR has made undead tricky to deal with from a character creation standpoint.
Many of the gods` clerics cannot even turn them, let alone command them.
However, a solution may be found in the Shadow World. Perhaps the Cold
Rider is a god and grants spells like the player wanted. I would prefer any
Cold Rider worshiping character originally come from the SW, but that isn`t
hard and fast. Perhaps he mentor was a SW being, or even a fiend.

> [It] May be that [as] some say, evil worshippers can serve a good
> god, but I don`t think the players herself agree with this one. They
> want to do what they want (if evil), but they must be very carefull
> not to step on the gods foot...

If you want to engage in evil for evil`s sake (unrestrained by other
ideology) you don`t have unlimited choices. Azrai would be your natural
choice as a diety, but what his fate is remains unresolved. If the DM
allows it, Azrai is still out there and can grant spells. According to
setting information, the great force of evil has been knocked down from the
over-arching divininty of Azrai to a more temporal level as the many
awnsheghlien. This has the advantage of making evil more immediate. The
Magian, Rhuobhe, and the White Witch are political rivals to local rulers
and can be involved in day to day dangers the way remote dieties often
aren`t (unless they manifest in state-like organizations like the Zhent
have). The draw back for this condition is that there is no over-arching
god of evil in a broad sense. This is one of the reasons that the designers
never settled completely what the fate of Azrai was.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 9:18 AM
Azrai wrote:
>
> According the to rules in "Hallowed Ground" 2. Edition each
> spell costs a god "energy". I still cannot see the point why a
> good god should give out spells to an evil worshipper.

The rules of Hallowed Ground are not binding on BR. You don`t need to
accept this cosmological explanation. Gods may have unlimited energy, and
apportion out only a limited amount for some divine purpose unknown to
followers. Perhaps, its a lesson from the War of the Shadow and the gods
don`t want a second Diesmaar.

> Further I don`t think you can compare a fantasy pantheon to
> our real-world-theology. Priests may pretend they are loyal
> followers to a god - but the god himself knows the real intentions
> and attitudes of his clergy. There is no way to misinterpret the
> doctrines of a god.

But who knows what the real doctrines and intentions of a diety are?
Perhaps it is only simple-mindedness to limit the divine to alignment
restrictions. Just as any ideology will have adherents who radically
differ, so can priesthoods. One of the things I really liked about the 2E
priesthood book was there were a large number of ideological foci for any
diety. Consider Haelyn. He`s more than just a god of law and goodness.
He`s a god of kingship, justice, the state, the Anuirean people, war,
commanders. As such, perhaps the philosophies of statecraft are more
binding on Haelyn`s priesthood than are the philosophies of ethics and moral
behavior.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Lord Eldred]

kgauck has hit the nail on the head. We are too simpleminded of folk to pretend to understand why a god WE view as good would allow evil doers to follow them!

[kgauck]

Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 11:41 AM
blitzmacher wrote:
> The LE character would not believe that he is evil, and
> would worship Haelyn as the God of Justice, and do his
> best to uphold justice.

This implies that the LE character lacks self awareness. I would not
require LE characters serving Haelyn to be blind to their own action. As
the Stoics wrote, "To act appropriatly means to become aware of the moral
significance of our choices and to accept the consequences of our action."
Under this kind of interpretation a LE character serving Haelyn would argue
like this:

"I fight for the same society that the Paladin does, but there are forces
that goodness cannot combat as well as I am able to. I do things that
society would rightfully shrink from. Would that we could all live in peace
and security, but there is grave evil in the world, and I must combat it for
the safety of the community. In my own town, I live like others, according
to goodness and law. When the community is in danger however, the gloves
come off and I am the brutal violence of vengence. I am like the
executioner who kills the criminal for the community. I value the good and
the just, but I cannot rely on goodness to protect the good. As such,
certain kinds of enemies justify the no-holds barred approach that I
represent. I serve the community, and I am dedicated to Haelyn, but
sometimes I must go outside the community and act as a beast. Would that it
were not so, but this is the sacrifice I make for the town, province and
realm I love. Conform yourself, therefore, with law and goodness, lest I be
summoned to drive you away with the maximum cruelty and violence. I will
leave no weapon unused, no tactic will be abandon by me, for I am not
squeamish."

So, the LE character acknowledges his evil, but does it to serve good, the
community, and Haelyn. Haelyn, acknowledges the need for a Lawful kind of
evil, just as he admits the need for a chaotic Good. Sure Haelyn perfers
Lawful Good, but he allows for any lawful and any good.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[A_dark]

Orginally posted by Azrai

Huuh, don't let their priest hear that you declare Sera as a godess of necromancy.

huh? YOu did not say you wanted a god with a portfolio on necromancy, just a god that has the necormantic sphere, allows healing spells and the CN alignment and can fight well.

Sera has everything. She can have a CN priest, they have the standard weapons for priests and an average armor and they also have the nifty +2 to all saves. She grants necromantic sphere major and healing, major again, I think. So what is your problem with a sera priest? It fits all the requirements you gave us

[A_dark]

Hey, our LE priest has made a Holy INquisition and is slaying anyone that disagrees with him saying that they are heretics and that they are spoiling the meaning of Haelyn's worship by opposing his words, which as we can guess, are law.

It is a perfect example. he knows that he is doing evil, but he also knows that he is doing it to promote the word of his god and prevent a heressy from emerging. Haelyn would definitely give the man spells. The fact that haelyn is good, does not mean that he would let a heressy of his name be created or let chaos to exist. The LE priest prevents any form of chaos to the extreme.

May I note the LG order of the harmonium in Planescape? Do they really sound good to you people? Killing anyone that is not the epitome of goodness and kindness and harmonious?

[kgauck]

Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 3:35 PM
Lord Eldred wrote:
>
> kgauck has hit the nail on the head. We are too simpleminded of
> folk to pretend to understand why a god WE view as good would
> allow evil doers to follow them!

I do think that focusing exclusively on the good-evil axis is too simple to
explain what the rules describe as possible. Several people have posted
discussions of other kinds of considerations. All of these explanations
have more more complicated than falling back on the G-E axis as the only
means of determining who a god will grant support to.

Also, it was the explanation that was excessively simple, not any people.
Don`t take stuff so personally.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[blitzmacher]

>"I fight for the same society that the Paladin does, but >there are forces
>that goodness cannot combat as well as I am able to. I do >things that
>society would rightfully shrink from. Would that we could all >live in peace
>and security, but there is grave evil in the world, and I must >combat it for
>the safety of the community. In my own town, I live like >others, according
>to goodness and law. When the community is in danger >however, the gloves
>come off and I am the brutal violence of vengence. I am >like the
>executioner who kills the criminal for the community. I value >the good and
>the just, but I cannot rely on goodness to protect the good. >As such,
>certain kinds of enemies justify the no-holds barred >approach that I
>represent. I serve the community, and I am dedicated to >Haelyn, but
>sometimes I must go outside the community and act as a >beast. Would that it
>were not so, but this is the sacrifice I make for the town, >province and
>realm I love. Conform yourself, therefore, with law and >goodness, lest I be
>summoned to drive you away with the maximum cruelty and >violence. I will
>leave no weapon unused, no tactic will be abandon by me, >for I am not
>squeamish."

>So, the LE character acknowledges his evil, but does it to >serve good, the
>community, and Haelyn. Haelyn, acknowledges the need for >a Lawful kind of
>evil, just as he admits the need for a chaotic Good. Sure >Haelyn perfers
>Lawful Good, but he allows for any lawful and any good.

Exactly what I said, but I used fewer words.:P