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  1. #1
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    Do you think that the rules for racial level limits should be enforced?

    To me it makes absolutely no sense. Why would a quasi-immortal elf be stuck to a lower level than humans? The PHB argument is weak at best. I've thrown the rules for the limits out the window in my campaign.
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

  2. #2
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    I beleive they should for the reason of balance.In 2nd Ed.,humans got absolutely nothing,in most campaigns(BR,then later Grewawk being the exceptions).No bonuses of any kind.I always noticed that there were always more elves,dwarves,and halflings in my group,as noone saw reason to be a human as they got nothing,but their unlimited advancement.

    Now the reason humans should practically be the only race that can rise to superior levels is because they work at it.Yes,an elf lives a long time,but what do they do with it??Hell they are not even considered adults till after a century.I would go so far as to wager that,for good or bad,one human generation does more than three or four elven.Humans live such a short life,that they make up for it.

    That is just my two coppers.
    "Victory has a thousand fathers,defeat is an orphan."

  3. #3
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    I have never played elves as the extremely laid back frolicing twits of the forest. In a typical campaign world they do not act rashly and may take weeks to make a descision a human would make in minutes. However, elves in my campaign are closer to drow who have more ambition to improve themselves than most humans.

    Halfings with limits... maybe.
    Dwarves... maybe if the limits were a little higher. Since they are slow on the uptake and are rarely over ambitious.

    I understand the advantages that the other races may have on paper, but it is the cultural limitations that have a greater effect on roleplaying (at least in my campaign world).

    The ability to be multi-classed should be more than enough of an 'advantage' to offset being human. That rule never made much sense to me either... but that another issue for another thread...
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

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    I agree with you fully Lawgiver...However I must put a but to it.If every gamer were to play just for the role-playing,the system would work wonderfully as is.However in D&D,as in any game,you have power-gamers.Even the best role-players,sometimes pick their race or class based only on what they can get out of it.Power-Gamers are my bane.I hate them with a passion.It is one thing to fight in a way that is most beneficial to your character,but to only fight in that manner,even if it means you dont even make an attack,because you cant get your opponent in the exact spot you need him so you can backstab/fireball/crit him is stupid.And yes I have a player in my group who does that very thing.He one time let the wizard die because he couldn't get the wizard';s attacker in a flank.

    In second edition,almost without exception,I was the only person in my group to play a human.With humans getting a little something in 3E,people in my group play humans a LOT more.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......
    "Victory has a thousand fathers,defeat is an orphan."

  5. #5
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    Riegan, I know how you feel, we had a person in our group who would stop engaging the enemy if he ran out of his best spells even though he was able to fight with a sword decently. His roleplaying never made sense to me!

    I don't really see a reason for the limitations. I do see a reason for given humans some racial benefits but it shouldn't be unlimited advancement. To argue that humans are the only race capable of advancement smacks of racism and I just don't really like to go there.
    Lord Eldred
    High Councilor of the
    United Provinces of Cerilia
    "May Haelyn bring justice to your realm"

  6. #6
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    There are other solutions:
    -withhold exp
    -drain regency
    -Use NPCs to do the same actions to the PC
    -Punish them for their insolence! Kill PCs who refuse to play right dispite warnings and encouragement. If they quit... they were ruining the campaign anyway. ;)


    Lord Eldred: As far as racism goes. I fully agree with you. I was going to use that angle early on but held off.
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

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    Orginally posted by Riegan Swordwraith
    It is one thing to fight in a way that is most beneficial to your character,but to only fight in that manner,even if it means you dont even make an attack,because you cant get your opponent in the exact spot you need him so you can backstab/fireball/crit him is stupid.And yes I have a player in my group who does that very thing.He one time let the wizard die because he couldn't get the wizard';s attacker in a flank.
    Tell me about it. In a 3rd edition game, I had this rogue as a partner who would just insist that my character(a Khinasi warrior who concerned himself with face and honor above his own life) would fight in the front row, take the blows, and drag the enemies in the good position so he could sneak attack them. Okay, doing it one time if needed is okay... but asking me to do that all the time just pisses me off.
    Respectfully submitted,

    Temujin,
    Would-be ruler of you all. =)

  8. #8
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    Temujin: Just fails to be able to bring the enemy in the clutches of this petty rogue. Maybe parry indefinately... until the rogue engages. Or intentionally... keep looking over the opponent's shoulder to tip him off that some one is sneaking in behind. Accuse the rogue of trying to insult you by stealing the honor of fighting fairly.
    Servant of the Most High,
    Lawgiver

    Isaiah 1:17
    Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

  9. #9
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    It does make sense that an elf who out lives a human by an exponential factor should be able to out gain any human level wise in nearly any class. Lawgiver has taken the racial lvl limit into account by making them a near drow existance. Long live lawgiver the "man" for all elves.:P
    And I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering , and to conquer. Rev. 6:2

  10. #10
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    Orginally posted by Temujin

    Tell me about it. In a 3rd edition game, I had this rogue as a partner who would just insist that my character(a Khinasi warrior who concerned himself with face and honor above his own life) would fight in the front row, take the blows, and drag the enemies in the good position so he could sneak attack them. Okay, doing it one time if needed is okay... but asking me to do that all the time just pisses me off.
    ROLEPLAY my friend! How do you think the Khinasi warrior would feel? Really pissed off? Act like it. And if the rogue insists, pull a blow at him (in game, not in real life :) ), show him how pissed you are. Or grab 70%, not 50% of treasures, as you do most of the work -and let the rogue know the reason! Then watch the rogue react... I am totally against the logic "well, we are a party, so I get along with him whatever". Opinions?

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