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Thread: ECL of a Realm.

  1. #11
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Which of the three proposed characters is the most valuable at the
    adventure level?

    Gary

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  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 7:45 PM


    > Which of the three proposed characters is the most valuable at the
    > adventure level?

    Depends on the campaign. If I wanted a power character, for individual
    prowess, the regent is out. Gnoll isn`t my first choice of a spellcasting
    character race, so a campaign based on wizards, sources, and spellcasters
    I`m ruling out the Gnoll too. If I can be a fighter or ranger, Gnoll is a
    very good choice. The blooded character I am assuming is human, elf, dwarf,
    or halfling. These races might be anywhere doing anything, so the kind of
    campaign limits these characters the least. 35 blood strength is pretty
    good, I am liable to get at least one really nifty blood power. So on the
    whole, I`d go with the blooded character, but for strait out dungeon crawls
    all the time, the gnoll probabaly edges the blooded character out.

    Of course if everyone else is picking regents and the table talk is about
    how everyone has this or that realm goal, the gnoll is out, the regent
    character looks more attractive, and the blooded character still looks good.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  3. #13
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:28 AM 6/21/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    > > Which of the three proposed characters is the most valuable at the
    > > adventure level?
    >
    >Depends on the campaign.

    Hokay.... I`m going to go ahead and move on. Sorry you remain
    unconvinced, but c`est la vie.

    Anyway, what I was thinking was adding the levels of a regent`s holdings to
    his bloodline strength score for the purpose of determining ECL and
    EL. This would accompany a table (or simple equation) that would note the
    change. For instance, the character with the 35 bloodline strength score
    might have a +2 ECL. The regent with the same bloodline strength and 35
    levels of provinces and holdings might get +4 if the table looked like this:

    BSS/Realm ECL
    1-10 +1
    11-30 +2
    31-60 +3
    61-100 +4
    101-150 +5
    151-200 +6

    The exact numbers, of course, could be different. I`m just spitballing
    those, but basically the idea is that a bloodline and a realm are of
    roughly the same influence at the adventure level. Now, that`s a fairly
    shaky supposition because of a multiplicity of factors, but has the benefit
    of simplicity. At the adventure level certain types of holdings are of
    more utility than others, with the healing potential and deep pockets of
    temples probably being the most obvious, but going that route would make
    for a more complicated system in which a temple level was worth X, a law
    holding X/2, a source X/3, or whatever.

    Gary

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  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
    Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:04 AM


    I gave this a new subject line because its really off the Manslayer topic.

    > 3. I don`t know how the miscellaneous magic items listed were determined,
    > but it appears to have been a random decision, resulting in a rather odd
    > inventory. An iron flask with a rakshasa in it doesn`t sound very BR or
    > much like something Rhoubhe would have lying around. He also has a whole
    > list of weapons and armor beyond those in his stat block that are kind of
    > superfluous. Surely Rhoubhe has subordinate who can use those items? The
    > additional magic items might better be described as being part of his
    > realm`s resources rather than items he`s got stored in some personal vault
    > somewhere.

    I`m not sure if this paragraph reflects your Realm EL idea or not, but I
    must say that there is someting here that I think is worth spending some
    time with. I`m not really talking about the adventure opportunities for a
    player character here (and so adjusting his xp), but there does seem to be a
    difference between a realm that has a hoard of Sidhe treasures and one that
    has a couple of pigs.

    While I`m at it allow me to recall here the discussion of the power of the
    Spiderfell.

    Rhoubhe and the Spiderfell are more powerful than any given province in
    Anuire, and possibly Cerilia. Their powerful neighbors do not overwhelm
    them, they watch them anxiously. Perhaps the Spider collects no RP, he`s
    not a political power, he`s pure monster. Perhaps Rhoubhe only collects a
    handfull of RP, because his threat to his neighbors is not going to be a
    holdings war, it will be military. But in terms of gauging the strength of
    these realms, 0 and 2 don`t do justice to the power to be found in these
    provinces, as compared to Serimist and Namverg. As a player, I can pretty
    reasonably figure the power to be gained from the provinces of Serimist and
    Namverg (in Talanie and Stjordvik respectivly). Now if someone dumps a
    treasure hoard, a band of powerful adventurers, or an abomination in a
    provicne, its not the same province. The EL, so to speak of the province is
    greater.

    Just last night I wrote up Leland Edrandson, a minor noble from Talanie. He
    is a retired Anuirean adventurer who lives in Saerskaap, having married the
    daughter of the eorl. He got himself a nice office as captain of the Light
    Horse Guards. In terms of the ability of some PC`s to cause trouble in
    Saerskaap, the province just got a whole lot more powerful. Normally when I
    make up a province, the leaders of the province (the most powerful fighters,
    clerics, and rogues) are 4-6th level. Eorl, Skjada One-Eye, is a pretty
    typical 5th level aristocrat. Up until last night, he was the most powerful
    character you were liable to encounter in Saerskaap. So, the province just
    became a more powerful place.

    It makes one wonder how to measure the power of such things - as they are
    generally known to people - so that a player doesn`t rely on a zero level
    province being a very weak place, and finding that the DM wasn`t even going
    by that when the power of the Spiderfell was being created.

    Is a province of a certain level typical in its distribution of high level
    characters, magic items, and so forth? Or is a province occupied by Rhoubhe
    Manslayer and he and his followers are armed with ancient elven weapons and
    armor that cause typical heros to pause a moment. Certainly there is a
    reason that no one has conquered Rhoubhe in 1500 years. That reason is not
    revealed in the realm accounting.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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  5. #15
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:19 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

    >I`m not sure if this paragraph reflects your Realm EL idea or not, but I
    >must say that there is someting here that I think is worth spending some
    >time with.

    It wasn`t direclty, but let`s go with it.

    >Is a province of a certain level typical in its distribution of high level
    >characters, magic items, and so forth? Or is a province occupied by Rhoubhe
    >Manslayer and he and his followers are armed with ancient elven weapons and
    >armor that cause typical heros to pause a moment. Certainly there is a
    >reason that no one has conquered Rhoubhe in 1500 years. That reason is not
    >revealed in the realm accounting.

    Maybe population level could be used to reflect character levels of the
    population rather than numbers of people in the province? That`d be
    amusing. A level 1 province could be 2,000 level 1 characters, or 200
    level 10 characters....

    One of the things I`d like to see in a system of realm rules is a way of
    determing things exactly like what you`re describing. EL`s (or the realm
    level equivalent) for a kingdom. If you were going to present Moorcock`s
    sparsely populated land of Melnibone using BR-like rules then it would
    probably look pretty wimpy, but if you factor in little things like a
    couple of flights of dragons, a magic using population and rulers who
    actually confront the gods from time to time those factors make that
    Elric`s kingdom pretty impressive. Far more impressive than any of the BR
    domain features take into consideration. You`re examples (Rhoubhe and the
    Spiderfell) are perfect examples of how the BR system doesn`t take into
    consideration factors that not only would make a massive difference at the
    domain level, yet aren`t represented, but also affects that are difficult
    to mesh into play at the adventure level. Let`s say the Spider has access
    to 3-5 "units" of giant spiders, right? (It should probably be more like
    7-10, but whatever.) What does that mean when a party of adventurers
    enters the Spiderfell? It doesn`t seem sensible that they would have to
    fight upwards of a thousand spiders....

    Smoothing and translating the transition between realm level and the
    adventure level is something I`d love to see developed more.

    When it comes to things like the "EL of a realm" what kinds of factors
    should be involved? There`s the number of people in the population, the CR
    of those people, their equipment, the fortification of the province,
    holding levels, troops organized into companies of soldiers (who may not be
    accounted for in the population figure) and extraordinary
    characters/creatures. Anything else?

    Gary

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  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Something hard to quantify but important would be the "cohesiveness" of the
    province. Take the descriptions of Baruk-Azhik. All the native rulers
    cooperate very effectively. If one of those rulers was in trouble, you
    could rely on the others to provide whatever assistance was required. The
    rulers may disagree from time to time, but those disagreements are put aside
    in the face of an outside threat.

    Consider on the other hand a realm like Stjordvik, where the eorls and he
    king don`t get along, where the Emerald Spire supports the eorls and the
    Oaken Grove the king, where Storm Holtson is not above selling the realm
    down the river if there is a gold bar in it for him somewhere.

    Then you might consider Rohrmarch where there is actually an outright civil
    war.

    A neighboring regent attempting to grab a holding as part of long term plan
    to grab provinces will find it easier to do so in Rohrmarch than in
    Stjordvik, than in Baruk-Azhik.

    Another thing that`s hard to quantify is central position. Central
    possition gives you that advantage of interior lines in war, but you have
    the possibility of enemies on all sides. Ghoere has central possition.
    Boeruine does not. The Archduke has an ally to his north, the sea to his
    east, a mountain range to his west, and his archenemy to his south. Aeric
    Boeruine does not keep himself up at night wondering where to deploy his
    troops. Another consideration of geography is the possition of your allies.
    Avanil is helped more by Taeghas and Brosengae than it is by Dhoesone and
    Coeranys, even if the latter two realms were more devoted, and they may well
    be more powerful. Roesone`s good relations with Medoere and Ilien is worth
    more than even the most devoted ally in Tuornen.

    Kenneth Gauck
    kgauck@mchsi.com

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